With agreement through Microsoft Vista COA and sticker are removed!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402

You got to be kidding me? Microsoft wants some resellers to destroy the
COA that somebody else had to pay for? What Microsoft isn't happy with
just a single license for every computer sold? Now they want two
licenses per machine?

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM
Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005 SP2

"BillW50" wrote in message ...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402
You got to be kidding me? Microsoft wants some resellers to destroy the
COA that somebody else had to pay for? What Microsoft isn't happy with
just a single license for every computer sold? Now they want two
licenses per machine?


The description for that pc states:
"There is 2gb ram but NO HARD DRIVE OR POWER CORD"
"Operating System - Not Included "

COA applies to the operating system. No hard drive thus the reason for no o/s.
- Thus if no operating system, no need for the sticker.

Or do you think your entitled to a product key for a missing operating system (and for $59) ???

Another issue, not entirely unrelated, appeared (and applicable to XP, Vista, Win7) when MSFT revised the licensing terms for OEM
editions:
- the Vista OEM System Builder EULA prohibits installing an OEM license if not selling the machine to another unrelated person
(i.e. you can't install an OEM version on a pc for personal use (yourself, family, friends without selling that machine to an
unrelated party)
qp
OEM licenses must be preinstalled on a PC and sold to another unrelated party
/qp

Note: the above applies to XP, Vista, Win7 but not Win8. Licensing was revised for Win8 with specifc applicability to each Win8
edition (Upgrade, OEM, Personal Use for System Builder).

--
....winston
msft mvp

"BillW50" wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402
snipped the poster's misconception what the auction was selling

It's an auction for hardware only. You don't get an OS. You missed the
part of the auction description that says:

Operating System: Not Included

So, for /*WHAT*/ would they provide a COA sticker with a product key?
They're not going to provide to you a means to pirate a copy of the OS
by reusing the COA's product key that was for some other license that
they didn't include with the hardware.

Auction is selling hardware.
NO SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED. No operating system, no applications.
If you want an OS on this hardware, get it separately.

Also, for such questions, click on "Ask the seller". They know what
they're selling (you didn't or were confused). It is also a good
indicator if the seller is responsive. Give them at least 3 full days
*before* the auction ends for them to reply. If they reply, you know
you can contact them later if there is a problem with the item
(delivery, costs, condition, description mismatch). While, in this
case, the seller says "no returns or exchanges", you are still covered
by eBay's buyer protections; however, typically eBay likes to have the
auction participants try to settle the problem before involving
arbitration or involvement by eBay.

Remember that the buyer is responsible for reading ALL conditions or
description of an auction. If the buyer has any questions, they must
ask them BEFORE bidding. Sellers are not responsible for buyers that
don't bother to read an auction, don't read it all, including shipping
charges, don't understand the auction, or don't ask for clarification.
If there are unknowns, buyers accept any risks thereof when they bid.
Caveat emptor. Sellers are not responsible for buyers. They are
responsible for what they are selling.

For example, the condition is merely listed as "used". Not new, not
like new, not good, and not acceptable. Just used. The seller
mentioned some scratches. Well, what's "some" to them maybe be
monsterous to you. LOOK at the auction's pictures. They're pretty
good. However, because no OS gets loaded, the pic of the display is
rather useless. There is no mention about dead pixels but the seller
probably doesn't know. Read the auction and you'll see at just what
[lack of] testing the seller performed. It's booted and got to the POST
screen. That's all the seller knows. They don't really know the
condition of the display. They didn't go keyboarding to ensure that
none of them stick, don't rise up all the way (so a slight pressure will
close the contact), the condition of the carbon trails to know the keys
make reliable contact. Hell, there's no pic of the keyboard to see if
you can even read the keycaps. You'll have to add a hard disk so you
can install an OS, and you'll have to use LINUX or buy Windows. Then
you'll have to see if drivers are available for this unit. So is this
something you really want for baseline that you'll have to build up?

In ,
VanguardLH typed:
"BillW50" wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402
snipped the poster's misconception what the auction was selling

It's an auction for hardware only. You don't get an OS. You missed
the part of the auction description that says:

Operating System: Not Included

Actually I watch a lot of auctions and many off lease machines doesn't
include a hard drive or OS. But they do include a COA.

So, for /*WHAT*/ would they provide a COA sticker with a product key?
They're not going to provide to you a means to pirate a copy of the OS
by reusing the COA's product key that was for some other license that
they didn't include with the hardware.

No, in my case I often don't care if there is a hard drive or not. Nor
do I care if there is an OS or not. But what I do care is if it has a
COA or not. As if I am interested in a model I already have, I also
already have the recovery disc for it anyway. And I have plenty of
unused hard drives, so I don't care about that either.

But without a COA, I can't restore it back to a factory state. And I
must purchase or use one of my unused OEM or full version keys for the
machine. Having over 30 machines here, we are talking like over $5000
more being paid to Microsoft. And that would be a problem.

Auction is selling hardware.
NO SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED. No operating system, no applications.
If you want an OS on this hardware, get it separately.

Many auctions are the same, but includes the original COA that was sold
with the machine. I had no idea that Microsoft makes some destroy the
COA. I was never asked to sign any contract with Microsoft, nor would I
ever want to. And the more and more I hear about these contracts, the
more it sounds like signing a contract with the devil. If everybody just
said no, this nonsense would end.

Also, for such questions, click on "Ask the seller". They know what
they're selling (you didn't or were confused). It is also a good
indicator if the seller is responsive. Give them at least 3 full days
*before* the auction ends for them to reply. If they reply, you know
you can contact them later if there is a problem with the item
(delivery, costs, condition, description mismatch). While, in this
case, the seller says "no returns or exchanges", you are still covered
by eBay's buyer protections; however, typically eBay likes to have the
auction participants try to settle the problem before involving
arbitration or involvement by eBay.

Yes this is an option I was going to do. But first I wanted some insight
to hidden Microsoft rules I didn't know about first.

Remember that the buyer is responsible for reading ALL conditions or
description of an auction. If the buyer has any questions, they must
ask them BEFORE bidding. Sellers are not responsible for buyers that
don't bother to read an auction, don't read it all, including shipping
charges, don't understand the auction, or don't ask for clarification.
If there are unknowns, buyers accept any risks thereof when they bid.
Caveat emptor. Sellers are not responsible for buyers. They are
responsible for what they are selling.

For example, the condition is merely listed as "used". Not new, not
like new, not good, and not acceptable. Just used. The seller
mentioned some scratches. Well, what's "some" to them maybe be
monsterous to you. LOOK at the auction's pictures. They're pretty
good. However, because no OS gets loaded, the pic of the display is
rather useless. There is no mention about dead pixels but the seller
probably doesn't know. Read the auction and you'll see at just what
[lack of] testing the seller performed. It's booted and got to the
POST screen. That's all the seller knows. They don't really know the
condition of the display. They didn't go keyboarding to ensure that
none of them stick, don't rise up all the way (so a slight pressure
will close the contact), the condition of the carbon trails to know
the keys make reliable contact. Hell, there's no pic of the keyboard
to see if you can even read the keycaps. You'll have to add a hard
disk so you can install an OS, and you'll have to use LINUX or buy
Windows. Then you'll have to see if drivers are available for this
unit. So is this something you really want for baseline that you'll
have to build up?

Yes of course. I know all of this. Although sometimes you find a seller
who is far less than honest. Like recently I purchased a machine that
they said was a Core Duo in the title (I want nothing less with Windows
7). When I got it, it was really a Core Solo. And they said the battery
is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it only had 5% of the full
capacity or not. Just good enough to save my work if the power fails.
But what they didn't mention was that the battery voltage fell below
safe charging. And thus the machine totally ignores it and it is only
good for a door stop. The only saving grace is that the machine looks
like it was just taken out of the box just yesterday. And for a battery
to fall that low in voltage, it had to sit for years without a recharge.
So it probably did see very little use anyway.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM
Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005 SP2

"BillW50" wrote:

VanguardLH typed:

"BillW50" wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402
snipped the poster's misconception what the auction was selling

It's an auction for hardware only. You don't get an OS. You missed
the part of the auction description that says:

Operating System: Not Included

Actually I watch a lot of auctions and many off lease machines doesn't
include a hard drive or OS. But they do include a COA.

So you're finding a lot of lazy or ignorant eBay sellers. If you've
been monitoring lots of auctions there, this shouldn't be a surprise.
There is no requirement that sellers are much more educated than buyers.
If you need more info, you're supposed to contact the seller BEFORE
placing a bid.

So, for /*WHAT*/ would they provide a COA sticker with a product key?
They're not going to provide to you a means to pirate a copy of the OS
by reusing the COA's product key that was for some other license that
they didn't include with the hardware.

No, in my case I often don't care if there is a hard drive or not. Nor
do I care if there is an OS or not. But what I do care is if it has a
COA or not.

A COA for *what*? You just said you didn't care if there is an OS or
not. Well, if there is no OS, just what would the COA be for? To
facilitate pirating another copy of Windows that did NOT come with the
hardware?

As if I am interested in a model I already have, I also
already have the recovery disc for it anyway. And I have plenty of
unused hard drives, so I don't care about that either.

So you're going to move a license from one host to another of the same
type. What does the Windows 8 EULA for whatever version you got say
about migrating that license to another host? Microsoft overhauled
their license agreements for Windows 8 and I haven't bothered memorizing
any of it for any versions of that product.

You want to migrate your Win8 license from your old computer to a
replacement computer. That the replacement is the same brand and model
is irrelevant (except for ease on your part, not regarding the license).
*IF* the EULA for you particular version of Win8 permits that migration
then you get to migrate THAT license, not steal one that didn't even
come on the replacement computer.

Since they specifically say that they are NOT providing an operating
system then they also cannot provide you a COA for a non-existent
license. Being sloppy by leaving on the COA sticker when Windows is not
included in the sale doesn't obviate that use of the COA sticker would
be illegal. You don't have THAT license of Windows. You didn't buy it.

If you're walking through a parking lot and notice an unlocked car with
the keys in the ignition, do you really think that car is now yours?
Just because some boob left the COA on the case for a sale that did NOT
include a license of Windows still means you're not allowed to use THAT
licence for that COA.

But without a COA, I can't restore it back to a factory state. And I
must purchase or use one of my unused OEM or full version keys for the
machine. Having over 30 machines here, we are talking like over $5000
more being paid to Microsoft. And that would be a problem.

Although not allowed for OEM versions of Windows, you could use your
*own* COA sticker to install YOUR license of Windows. Move the hard
disk from your old same-type host to the replacement one, create the
rescue discs the manual told you about to migrate the OEM install (still
not legit, however), or call the host maker to get them to send you
replacement installation media (you'll probably have to pay the shipping
& handling charges for something like a cost of $20).

Auction is selling hardware.
NO SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED. No operating system, no applications.
If you want an OS on this hardware, get it separately.

Many auctions are the same, but includes the original COA that was sold
with the machine.

If a license for Windows was not included then they SHOULD have removed
the COA sticker with the product key. There are lots of sellers, even
large companies, that dump off their old hardware by selling it rather
than contract a jobber for disposal and they omit to wipe the hard
disks. Especially for companies, they are not allowed to slice up their
volume license to dole out instances outside their organization to whom
the volume license was sold. The recipient (buyer) gets just hardware
with a polluted hard disk (i.e., there's still an instance of Windows on
it). That doesn't mean it is a legit license of Windows. If the OS was
not specifically included in the sale then any files existing on the
hard disk meant they didn't bother or remember to wipe the hard disk.

I had no idea that Microsoft makes some destroy the
COA.

They don't. The seller was not including an operating system.
Therefore they couldn't legally provide a COA for an instance of Windows
that is not included in the sale.

If Windows was included in the sale, leaving the COA sticker is valid.
If Windows was not included in the sale, leaving the COA sticker means
they would be illegally doling out a product key for some OTHER instance
of Windows than the one installed on THAT host. Doesn't matter that you
are using one host to repair another. They're still different hosts.

But first I wanted some insight
to hidden Microsoft rules I didn't know about first.

There are no hidden Microsoft rules. No rules apply because no OS was
included in the sale. You don't get a product key for a license of
Windows that you didn't buy.

You'll have to figure out how to get Windows from your old host to the
replacement one using your own old COA sticker and its product key. It
it's for an OEM version of Windows, such migration is illegal per the
EULA contract to which you agreed by using the software. Hint: nothing
bars you from upgrading your current host to which is bound an OEM
license, so you can "upgrade" a computer until it is basically a new
computer although doing so will probably spur the activation wizard.

No OS was included in the sale hence not only would it be inane to
include a COA sticker and product for an OS that wasn't included but
also illegal if it were an OEM license or a retail license that the
seller kept. Use your own old Windows license.


Yes of course. I know all of this.

Well, you didn't know that no OS was included in the sale hence the
absence of the COA sticker, so there might be other conditions of the
sale of which you are unaware.

Although sometimes you find a seller
who is far less than honest. Like recently I purchased a machine that
they said was a Core Duo in the title (I want nothing less with Windows
7). When I got it, it was really a Core Solo.

If the auction description said Core Duo and that's not what you got
then it was a fraudulent auction or the seller sent the wrong item. If
the seller refused to exchange the item for the correct one then you'd
be covered by eBay's buyer protection. Contact eBay to issue a
complaint to start the arbitration process.

The Core Solo uses the same 2-core die as the Core Duo except only one
of the cores is left active. Could be you read that auction
incorrectly, too. Auctions hang around for awhile so users can search
on "completed listings" to see what something sold for before. I use it
sometimes to figure out what an item of mine previously sold for rather
than guess at a starting bid price. What's the URL of that old auction?

And they said the battery is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it
only had 5% of the full capacity or not. Just good enough to save my
work if the power fails. But what they didn't mention was that the
battery voltage fell below safe charging.

So you're complaining the seller said the battery's condition was
unknown and you expected the battery to work? That was a risk that YOU
chose to make. You knew up front the battery condition was suspect.
They probably didn't waste the time to test it for uptime duration.
They probably didn't know how old it was. I don't see the seller misled
you. You risked it. You lost. Then you chose not to get a replacement
battery. Not their fault.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal...s/default.aspx

From the Windows 8 retail license:
http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...6e0e0260a6.pdf

Can I transfer the software to another computer or user?

You may transfer the software to another computer that belongs to you.
You may also transfer the software (together with the license) to a
computer owned by someone else if a) you are the first licensed user
of the software and b) the new user agrees to the terms of this
agreement. To make that transfer, you must transfer the original
media, the certificate of authenticity, the product key and the proof
of purchase directly to that other person, without retaining any
copies of the software.

The retail license let you migrate YOUR license of Windows to another
computer that you own (i.e., the replacement you intend to get). You
can transfer the Windows 8 license to another user *if* you are the
FIRST licensee. That means a reseller of goods, like the eBay auction
you mention, wasn't a licensee at all. The FIRST licensee was from
whomever they eBay seller the hardware. That FIRST licensee could've
sold the license to the reseller at eBay but (1) they probably didn't,
especially if it was a volume license (since they're not allowed to
slice up a volume license), and (2) the reseller has no need for the
license since they aren't the one that will use that hardware (they're
receiving the hardware and then turning around to sell it off to someone
else). The FIRST licensee (1st user) could sell it to the eBay seller
(2nd user) but the eBay seller is *not* permitted to to sell it to you
(3rd user). The eBay seller is not an escrow service facilitating the
sale between the FIRST licensee and you. The hardware was SOLD to the
eBay user who is now reselling it.

First licensee - eBay seller: transfer legit
First licensee - eBay seller - you: transfer not legit
First licensee (via escrow agent) -- you: transfer legit

You would have to be the SECOND license, not their third one, or later.
The eBay seller knows better Microsoft's licensing than you do. It's
not the same as before for prior versions of Windows.

You're disappointed that this seller is not sloppy by leaving the COA
with product key on the case for a license of an operating system that
is *not* included in the sale. They're not going to facilitate your
illegal migration of Windows 8 by using a license that you didn't get.
They're doing their job right. They are a good seller. What you want
is a sloppy, bad, or ignorant seller.

To be legit, either you'll have to buy Windows 8 with the hardware or
you'll have to figure out how to migrate your own license of Windows 8
to the replacement computer -- provided you have a retail license.

From the OEM/system builder (pre-installed) license:
http://download.microsoft.com/Docume...7f449f0d88.pdf

Can I transfer the software to another user?

You may transfer the software directly to another user, only with the
licensed computer.

You cannot migrate Windows 8 from your old computer to the new one if
what you have is an OEM or system builder license. The license sticks
to the first computer on which it is installed. Doesn't matter if that
computer burns up in a fire, lost in a divorce settlement, stolen, or
your dog at your computer. If that first-install computer is lost then
so is the OEM/system builder license that was on it. You're not allowed
to migrate that license to a replacement computer.

However, the OEM/system builder license doesn't obstruct users from
upgrading their computers. A computer on which an OEM/system builder
license was installed can still be upgraded, so much so that it is
basically a new computer. So you can fudge that licensing a bit through
an "upgrade" process.

Since the eBay seller is not including a license for Windows (and
probably is not allowed to include one) then you'll have to figure out
how to get your old license of Windows 8 off your old computer. You
didn't describe the state of your old computer or inquire how to get a
legit *retail* license off of it. If an OEM license is on your old
computer and your old computer is unusable then so too is that OEM
license.

Most users of pre-builts, like this one, end up getting OEM versions of
Windows not realizing they can't migrate it to another computer like
they can with the more expensive retail license.

"VanguardLH" wrote in message ...


Although not allowed for OEM versions of Windows, you could use your
*own* COA sticker to install YOUR license of Windows. Move the hard
disk from your old same-type host to the replacement one, create the
rescue discs the manual told you about to migrate the OEM install (still
not legit, however), or call the host maker to get them to send you
replacement installation media (you'll probably have to pay the shipping
& handling charges for something like a cost of $20)


Well...since that unit isn't going to run Win8 anytime soon (then XP/Vista/Win7 OEM licensing would apply)...but.....if using an
OEM o/s the machine has to be sold (i.e. not for personal use)
qp
OEM licenses must be preinstalled on a PC and sold to another unrelated party
qp

A full retail license (not OEM) for XP, Vista, Win7 (assuming the hardware supports one) would be a different scenario (of course
after installing a hard drive and purchasing or using an *unused* license).

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

In ,
VanguardLH typed:
"BillW50" wrote:

VanguardLH typed:

"BillW50" wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402
snipped the poster's misconception what the auction was selling

It's an auction for hardware only. You don't get an OS. You missed
the part of the auction description that says:

Operating System: Not Included

Actually I watch a lot of auctions and many off lease machines
doesn't include a hard drive or OS. But they do include a COA.

So you're finding a lot of lazy or ignorant eBay sellers. If you've
been monitoring lots of auctions there, this shouldn't be a surprise.
There is no requirement that sellers are much more educated than
buyers. If you need more info, you're supposed to contact the seller
BEFORE placing a bid.

Yes of course. I just asked one seller today if that was a SXGA or a XGA
screen. They said it was a XGA screen and don't ask any more questions
and to look elsewhere. I guess they were only interested in suckers as
buyers or something.

So, for /*WHAT*/ would they provide a COA sticker with a product
key? They're not going to provide to you a means to pirate a copy
of the OS by reusing the COA's product key that was for some other
license that they didn't include with the hardware.

No, in my case I often don't care if there is a hard drive or not.
Nor do I care if there is an OS or not. But what I do care is if it
has a COA or not.

A COA for *what*? You just said you didn't care if there is an OS or
not. Well, if there is no OS, just what would the COA be for? To
facilitate pirating another copy of Windows that did NOT come with the
hardware?

What? No! Microsoft wanted every PC to be running Microsoft. And they
did a fine job (some call it the Microsoft tax). As virtually every PC
manufactured comes with some licensed version of Windows. And the proof
of that license has been the COA.

As if I am interested in a model I already have, I also
already have the recovery disc for it anyway. And I have plenty of
unused hard drives, so I don't care about that either.

So you're going to move a license from one host to another of the same
type. What does the Windows 8 EULA for whatever version you got say
about migrating that license to another host? Microsoft overhauled
their license agreements for Windows 8 and I haven't bothered
memorizing any of it for any versions of that product.

Whoa! I am not moving licenses or even interested in doing so.

You want to migrate your Win8 license from your old computer to a
replacement computer. That the replacement is the same brand and
model is irrelevant (except for ease on your part, not regarding the
license). *IF* the EULA for you particular version of Win8 permits
that migration then you get to migrate THAT license, not steal one
that didn't even come on the replacement computer.

Since they specifically say that they are NOT providing an operating
system then they also cannot provide you a COA for a non-existent
license. Being sloppy by leaving on the COA sticker when Windows is
not included in the sale doesn't obviate that use of the COA sticker
would be illegal. You don't have THAT license of Windows. You
didn't buy it.

If you're walking through a parking lot and notice an unlocked car
with the keys in the ignition, do you really think that car is now
yours? Just because some boob left the COA on the case for a sale
that did NOT include a license of Windows still means you're not
allowed to use THAT licence for that COA.

I don't know what you are rambling about? If I purchase a XP machine
with a XP COA. It is licensed for XP. Nobody is moving licenses.

But without a COA, I can't restore it back to a factory state. And I
must purchase or use one of my unused OEM or full version keys for
the machine. Having over 30 machines here, we are talking like over
$5000 more being paid to Microsoft. And that would be a problem.

Although not allowed for OEM versions of Windows, you could use your
*own* COA sticker to install YOUR license of Windows. Move the hard
disk from your old same-type host to the replacement one, create the
rescue discs the manual told you about to migrate the OEM install
(still not legit, however), or call the host maker to get them to
send you replacement installation media (you'll probably have to pay
the shipping & handling charges for something like a cost of $20).

You are confused! Say I buy a Gateway M465 without a recovery disc or a
hard drive. I already have many of them and I have many recovery discs.
This one I buy has a COA. I just add a spare drive and use one of the
recovery disc I already have and use the COA as the license. It is all
perfectly legal.

Auction is selling hardware.
NO SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED. No operating system, no applications.
If you want an OS on this hardware, get it separately.

Many auctions are the same, but includes the original COA that was
sold with the machine.

If a license for Windows was not included then they SHOULD have
removed the COA sticker with the product key. There are lots of
sellers, even large companies, that dump off their old hardware by
selling it rather than contract a jobber for disposal and they omit
to wipe the hard disks. Especially for companies, they are not
allowed to slice up their volume license to dole out instances
outside their organization to whom the volume license was sold. The
recipient (buyer) gets just hardware with a polluted hard disk (i.e.,
there's still an instance of Windows on it). That doesn't mean it is
a legit license of Windows. If the OS was not specifically included
in the sale then any files existing on the hard disk meant they
didn't bother or remember to wipe the hard disk.

That is totally different and I would understand that.

I had no idea that Microsoft makes some destroy the
COA.

They don't. The seller was not including an operating system.
Therefore they couldn't legally provide a COA for an instance of
Windows that is not included in the sale.

Bull! The licensee goes with the hardware, whether the OS is there or
not. Are you telling me if I pull the drive out of this machine I am
typing on, the COA is now invalid? Bull!

If Windows was included in the sale, leaving the COA sticker is valid.
If Windows was not included in the sale, leaving the COA sticker means
they would be illegally doling out a product key for some OTHER
instance of Windows than the one installed on THAT host. Doesn't
matter that you are using one host to repair another. They're still
different hosts.

Bull! The COA is tied to hardware.

But first I wanted some insight
to hidden Microsoft rules I didn't know about first.

There are no hidden Microsoft rules. No rules apply because no OS was
included in the sale. You don't get a product key for a license of
Windows that you didn't buy.

The license is tied to the hardware. Why is this so hard to understand?

You'll have to figure out how to get Windows from your old host to the
replacement one using your own old COA sticker and its product key.
It it's for an OEM version of Windows, such migration is illegal per
the EULA contract to which you agreed by using the software. Hint:
nothing bars you from upgrading your current host to which is bound
an OEM license, so you can "upgrade" a computer until it is basically
a new computer although doing so will probably spur the activation
wizard.

Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. What the hell is wrong with you?

No OS was included in the sale hence not only would it be inane to
include a COA sticker and product for an OS that wasn't included but
also illegal if it were an OEM license or a retail license that the
seller kept. Use your own old Windows license.

Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. This is the rule in the license
agreement.

Yes of course. I know all of this.

Well, you didn't know that no OS was included in the sale hence the
absence of the COA sticker, so there might be other conditions of the
sale of which you are unaware.

Maybe, that is why I asked.

Although sometimes you find a seller
who is far less than honest. Like recently I purchased a machine that
they said was a Core Duo in the title (I want nothing less with
Windows 7). When I got it, it was really a Core Solo.

If the auction description said Core Duo and that's not what you got
then it was a fraudulent auction or the seller sent the wrong item.
If the seller refused to exchange the item for the correct one then
you'd be covered by eBay's buyer protection. Contact eBay to issue a
complaint to start the arbitration process.

Yes I am thinking about it.

The Core Solo uses the same 2-core die as the Core Duo except only one
of the cores is left active. Could be you read that auction
incorrectly, too. Auctions hang around for awhile so users can search
on "completed listings" to see what something sold for before. I use
it sometimes to figure out what an item of mine previously sold for
rather than guess at a starting bid price. What's the URL of that
old auction?

Yes I use completed auctions all of the time.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181063168205

And they said the battery is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it
only had 5% of the full capacity or not. Just good enough to save my
work if the power fails. But what they didn't mention was that the
battery voltage fell below safe charging.

So you're complaining the seller said the battery's condition was
unknown and you expected the battery to work? That was a risk that
YOU chose to make. You knew up front the battery condition was
suspect. They probably didn't waste the time to test it for uptime
duration. They probably didn't know how old it was. I don't see the
seller misled you. You risked it. You lost. Then you chose not to
get a replacement battery. Not their fault.

Oh knock it off! I thought it was billed as a Core Duo machine and not a
Core Solo. That in itself makes it worth 50 bucks less to me and only
useful as a XP machine. The battery is no big deal. But I would never
sell a machine with a totally dead battery and just say it is
unwarranted. I would say it is totally dead.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core2 Duo T5600 1.83GHz - 4GB - Windows XP SP2

"BillW50" wrote:

Bull! The licensee goes with the hardware,
Bull! The COA is tied to hardware.
The license is tied to the hardware. Why is this so hard to understand?
Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. What the hell is wrong with you?
Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. This is the rule in the license
agreement.

No one has to sell you anything they don't want to or they never got to
resell to you or are not allowed to resell to you. You don't have the
COA so you do not know what type of license for Windows was used with
that hardware.

Maybe it was a retail license and the original owner kept the OS and its
license. That is, the eBay seller NEVER got the license. It stayed
with whomever sold the hardware to him. Obviously the eBay seller
cannot sell you a license they didn't get with the hardware. Without
the COA, you cannot prove that it was not a retail license.

There's even one more gotcha: the eBay seller was not some agent between
the original PC owner and you. They aren't an auctioneer or arbiter
setting up the sale where only the original owner and you are listed as
parties in the sale. The eBayer bought the hardware from the 1st
licensee. That made the eBay the 2nd licensee. He could use the retail
license if it was included in the first sale. That eBayer can NOT
resell that same license. He is the 2nd licensee. You would be the 3rd
licensee. Now go read my other reply that cites the critical mandates
for the conditions of transfer of license. First licensee can transfer
to a 2nd licensee, and that as far as it goes. The 2nd licensee cannot
transfer to a 3rd licensee. There have been lots of articles for quite
awhile regarding the changes Microsoft made regarding transfer of retail
licenses. So you can blame Microsoft that the eBay seller could not
sell you the retail license but that presume the retail license was ever
included in the transfer of the hardware in the first place.

Maybe it was a volume license which means that YOU would never get a
legit copy with hardware transfer. You are not part of the organization
to which the volume license was originally sold. Volume licenses go by
"seat" count: you can move them around as long as you don't exceed your
max seat count. Without the COA, you cannot prove that it was not a
volume license.

As for OEM, sure the license sticks to the first computer on which it is
installed. That only means it *cannot be installed* anywhere ELSE! It
doesn't mean the owner or seller must include it in the sale of the
hardware. If they want, they can just sell the hardware. They cannot
legally use the OEM license once the hardware to which it was bound went
somewhere else but what do they care if they don't want that OS or
another license for it? I can go to BestBuy or Newegg and buy a
****load of pre-built computers with pre-installed OEM licenses of
Windows and I can legally erase the hard disks to put on Linux and then
sell the hardware to someone else WITHOUT ever transferring the OEM
license for Windows. *IF* the OEM license is transfered then it follows
the hardware. If the OEM license is not transferred, you can do
anything you want with the hardware. Selling the hardware does not
mandate license transfer.

Just go read the license about OEM *transfers*. It'll take you less
time than composing another reply to mine declaring what you want is how
it should be. Stop making up conditions of transfer of license for the
software. The OEM software license is bound to the hardware. The
hardware is NOT bound to the software license.

And they said the battery is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it
only had 5% of the full capacity or not. Just good enough to save my
work if the power fails. But what they didn't mention was that the
battery voltage fell below safe charging.

So you're complaining the seller said the battery's condition was
unknown and you expected the battery to work? That was a risk that
YOU chose to make. You knew up front the battery condition was
suspect. They probably didn't waste the time to test it for uptime
duration. They probably didn't know how old it was. I don't see the
seller misled you. You risked it. You lost. Then you chose not to
get a replacement battery. Not their fault.

Oh knock it off! I thought it was billed as a Core Duo machine and not a
Core Solo.

Oh, diversion, I see. You bring up the subject of the battery condition
and I discuss your risk in expecting an unwarranted battery to function
and suddenly it's back to the prior mention about the wrong CPU in the
auction's description. Focus.

That in itself makes it worth 50 bucks less to me and only
useful as a XP machine. The battery is no big deal.

Um, now just who was it that introduced the topic about *hoping* an
unwarranted battery would still be [partially] usable? Yep, must be my
fault that you brought this up.

Go read my reply (to my reply) about the Windows 8 EULA. Then you'll
see why the eBay seller would not be allowed (as the 2nd licensee) to
transfer to you (as the 3rd licensee) a retail license.

Regardless on what OS was installed on the hardware, the seller does not
have to include it in a subsequent sale of the hardware. If the seller
wants to include the OEM license then it has to go with the hardware.
As for transfer of a retail license, Microsoft screwed you. It's not
the eBay seller's fault as they are being compliant (assuming the eBay
seller even got the license when they bought the hardware).

From the auction, it looks like the eBay seller never got a license so
they cannot transfer it to you. There was no transfer of license from
original hardware owner to the eBay seller. Transfer of hardware does
NOT mandate transfer of license.

On 2/4/2013 8:35 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
"BillW50" wrote:

Bull! The licensee goes with the hardware,
Bull! The COA is tied to hardware.
The license is tied to the hardware. Why is this so hard to understand?
Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. What the hell is wrong with you?
Bull! The COA is tied to the hardware. This is the rule in the license
agreement.

No one has to sell you anything they don't want to or they never got to
resell to you or are not allowed to resell to you. You don't have the
COA so you do not know what type of license for Windows was used with
that hardware.

Really? Call up Dell, Gateway, HP, or whomever and tell them you want to
order 100 computers without Windows. And they tell you they can't do
that. Either way Microsoft will get paid for OEM licenses for all of
those 100 machines you order.

Maybe it was a retail license and the original owner kept the OS and its
license. That is, the eBay seller NEVER got the license. It stayed
with whomever sold the hardware to him. Obviously the eBay seller
cannot sell you a license they didn't get with the hardware. Without
the COA, you cannot prove that it was not a retail license.

That would be a valid reason. Although the seller didn't say that. They
said due to the contract with Microsoft, they have to remove the COA.

There's even one more gotcha: the eBay seller was not some agent between
the original PC owner and you. They aren't an auctioneer or arbiter
setting up the sale where only the original owner and you are listed as
parties in the sale. The eBayer bought the hardware from the 1st
licensee. That made the eBay the 2nd licensee. He could use the retail
license if it was included in the first sale. That eBayer can NOT
resell that same license. He is the 2nd licensee. You would be the 3rd
licensee. Now go read my other reply that cites the critical mandates
for the conditions of transfer of license. First licensee can transfer
to a 2nd licensee, and that as far as it goes. The 2nd licensee cannot
transfer to a 3rd licensee. There have been lots of articles for quite
awhile regarding the changes Microsoft made regarding transfer of retail
licenses. So you can blame Microsoft that the eBay seller could not
sell you the retail license but that presume the retail license was ever
included in the transfer of the hardware in the first place.

Maybe it was a volume license which means that YOU would never get a
legit copy with hardware transfer. You are not part of the organization
to which the volume license was originally sold. Volume licenses go by
"seat" count: you can move them around as long as you don't exceed your
max seat count. Without the COA, you cannot prove that it was not a
volume license.

Volume licenses would be a valid reason why the COA could not be included.

As for OEM, sure the license sticks to the first computer on which it is
installed. That only means it *cannot be installed* anywhere ELSE! It
doesn't mean the owner or seller must include it in the sale of the
hardware. If they want, they can just sell the hardware. They cannot
legally use the OEM license once the hardware to which it was bound went
somewhere else but what do they care if they don't want that OS or
another license for it? I can go to BestBuy or Newegg and buy a
****load of pre-built computers with pre-installed OEM licenses of
Windows and I can legally erase the hard disks to put on Linux and then
sell the hardware to someone else WITHOUT ever transferring the OEM
license for Windows. *IF* the OEM license is transfered then it follows
the hardware. If the OEM license is not transferred, you can do
anything you want with the hardware. Selling the hardware does not
mandate license transfer.

Sure, but the seller said they had to remove the COA as per contact with
Microsoft. So all indications say everybody would be happy including the
COA, except Microsoft. And why does Microsoft have a problem? Microsoft
already gets paid for virtually every PC ever manufactured. So what
problem would Microsoft have?

Just go read the license about OEM *transfers*. It'll take you less
time than composing another reply to mine declaring what you want is how
it should be. Stop making up conditions of transfer of license for the
software. The OEM software license is bound to the hardware. The
hardware is NOT bound to the software license.

You are the one going off on a tangent. All I want to know is why the
seller can't include the COA and why Microsoft won't let them. And you
go off on a rant about nobody has to include the COA if they don't want
to. Or one is free to remove the COA if they want too. Or talk about
Windows 8 license agreements which has nothing to do with the original
question, etc. You have side stepped the question totally.

And they said the battery is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it
only had 5% of the full capacity or not. Just good enough to save my
work if the power fails. But what they didn't mention was that the
battery voltage fell below safe charging.

So you're complaining the seller said the battery's condition was
unknown and you expected the battery to work? That was a risk that
YOU chose to make. You knew up front the battery condition was
suspect. They probably didn't waste the time to test it for uptime
duration. They probably didn't know how old it was. I don't see the
seller misled you. You risked it. You lost. Then you chose not to
get a replacement battery. Not their fault.

Oh knock it off! I thought it was billed as a Core Duo machine and not a
Core Solo.

Oh, diversion, I see. You bring up the subject of the battery condition
and I discuss your risk in expecting an unwarranted battery to function
and suddenly it's back to the prior mention about the wrong CPU in the
auction's description. Focus.

No I mentioned it only in passing. The seller stated the machine was a
Core Duo machine when in fact it wasn't. So we know a bit about this
seller's character.

That in itself makes it worth 50 bucks less to me and only
useful as a XP machine. The battery is no big deal.

Um, now just who was it that introduced the topic about *hoping* an
unwarranted battery would still be [partially] usable? Yep, must be my
fault that you brought this up.

Go read my reply (to my reply) about the Windows 8 EULA. Then you'll
see why the eBay seller would not be allowed (as the 2nd licensee) to
transfer to you (as the 3rd licensee) a retail license.

There you go off again. The Windows 8 EULA has nothing to do with the
Vista COA sticker that the seller had to remove. Why do you mention
about Windows 8 EULA when the question has to do with Vista's EULA? They
are not the same.

Regardless on what OS was installed on the hardware, the seller does not
have to include it in a subsequent sale of the hardware. If the seller
wants to include the OEM license then it has to go with the hardware.
As for transfer of a retail license, Microsoft screwed you. It's not
the eBay seller's fault as they are being compliant (assuming the eBay
seller even got the license when they bought the hardware).

From the auction, it looks like the eBay seller never got a license so
they cannot transfer it to you. There was no transfer of license from
original hardware owner to the eBay seller. Transfer of hardware does
NOT mandate transfer of license.

Man you never looked the item up, did you? Where do you get this crap
that the seller doesn't have to include the COA if they didn't want too?
That isn't what the seller stated! The seller stated they *had* to
remove the COA due to the contract they had with Microsoft. Geez!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160967170402

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12.0.1
Centrino Core2 Duo T5600 1.83GHz - 4GB - Windows XP SP2

On 2/5/2013 7:01 AM, BillW50 wrote:
On 2/4/2013 8:35 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
"BillW50" wrote:

UPDATE ON DEAD BATTERY PART...

And they said the battery is unwarranted. Fine, I didn't care if it
only had 5% of the full capacity or not. Just good enough to save my
work if the power fails. But what they didn't mention was that the
battery voltage fell below safe charging.

So you're complaining the seller said the battery's condition was
unknown and you expected the battery to work? That was a risk that
YOU chose to make. You knew up front the battery condition was
suspect. They probably didn't waste the time to test it for uptime
duration. They probably didn't know how old it was. I don't see the
seller misled you. You risked it. You lost. Then you chose not to
get a replacement battery. Not their fault.

Oh knock it off! I thought it was billed as a Core Duo machine and not a
Core Solo.

Oh, diversion, I see. You bring up the subject of the battery condition
and I discuss your risk in expecting an unwarranted battery to function
and suddenly it's back to the prior mention about the wrong CPU in the
auction's description. Focus.

No I mentioned it only in passing. The seller stated the machine was a
Core Duo machine when in fact it wasn't. So we know a bit about this
seller's character.

When you have a dead lithium battery which the voltage drops too low
(due to sitting too long without being charged), which the machine will
refuse to charge for safety reasons. One has a few options.

One is to charge it manually and thus bypassing the safety. This is
pretty dangerous since lithium batteries can burst into flames if the
voltage is too low and you try to recharge them. If it does burst into
flames, I believe water makes this chemical fire only worse. So to be
safe, I guess to do this outside and if it does burst into flames, do it
in an area where nothing else around will burn. As I don't know if you
can stop it from burning without special equipment for chemical fires.

Another trick is to put the battery in the freezer. I don't know why
this sometimes works. I'm guessing as the battery voltage is higher when
cold. Then drop it into the machine. And it might be enough to convince
the safety circuits it is ok to charge.

I tried the latter trick first with this dead battery and it brought it
back to life. So this is something one can try if they find themselves
in a similar situation.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center

BillW50 wrote:


When you have a dead lithium battery which the voltage drops too low
(due to sitting too long without being charged), which the machine will
refuse to charge for safety reasons. One has a few options.

One is to charge it manually and thus bypassing the safety. This is
pretty dangerous since lithium batteries can burst into flames if the
voltage is too low and you try to recharge them. If it does burst into
flames, I believe water makes this chemical fire only worse. So to be
safe, I guess to do this outside and if it does burst into flames, do it
in an area where nothing else around will burn. As I don't know if you
can stop it from burning without special equipment for chemical fires.

Another trick is to put the battery in the freezer. I don't know why
this sometimes works. I'm guessing as the battery voltage is higher when
cold. Then drop it into the machine. And it might be enough to convince
the safety circuits it is ok to charge.

I tried the latter trick first with this dead battery and it brought it
back to life. So this is something one can try if they find themselves
in a similar situation.


I like this site, for it's in-depth articles.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries
cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be
charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode
during a subfreezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be
removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are known to be
more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful
conditions."

HTH,
Paul

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:28:02 -0500, Paul wrote:

BillW50 wrote:


When you have a dead lithium battery which the voltage drops too low
(due to sitting too long without being charged), which the machine will
refuse to charge for safety reasons. One has a few options.

One is to charge it manually and thus bypassing the safety. This is
pretty dangerous since lithium batteries can burst into flames if the
voltage is too low and you try to recharge them. If it does burst into
flames, I believe water makes this chemical fire only worse. So to be
safe, I guess to do this outside and if it does burst into flames, do it
in an area where nothing else around will burn. As I don't know if you
can stop it from burning without special equipment for chemical fires.

Another trick is to put the battery in the freezer. I don't know why
this sometimes works. I'm guessing as the battery voltage is higher when
cold. Then drop it into the machine. And it might be enough to convince
the safety circuits it is ok to charge.

I tried the latter trick first with this dead battery and it brought it
back to life. So this is something one can try if they find themselves
in a similar situation.


I like this site, for it's in-depth articles.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries
cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be
charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode
during a subfreezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be
removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are known to be
more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful
conditions."

HTH,
Paul

Such as Boeing 787s?

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:28:02 -0500, Paul wrote:

BillW50 wrote:

When you have a dead lithium battery which the voltage drops too low
(due to sitting too long without being charged), which the machine will
refuse to charge for safety reasons. One has a few options.

One is to charge it manually and thus bypassing the safety. This is
pretty dangerous since lithium batteries can burst into flames if the
voltage is too low and you try to recharge them. If it does burst into
flames, I believe water makes this chemical fire only worse. So to be
safe, I guess to do this outside and if it does burst into flames, do it
in an area where nothing else around will burn. As I don't know if you
can stop it from burning without special equipment for chemical fires.

Another trick is to put the battery in the freezer. I don't know why
this sometimes works. I'm guessing as the battery voltage is higher when
cold. Then drop it into the machine. And it might be enough to convince
the safety circuits it is ok to charge.

I tried the latter trick first with this dead battery and it brought it
back to life. So this is something one can try if they find themselves
in a similar situation.

I like this site, for it's in-depth articles.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures

"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries
cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be
charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode
during a subfreezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be
removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are known to be
more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful
conditions."

HTH,
Paul

Such as Boeing 787s?


Are they still grounded, or flying again ?

Paul

On 2/15/2013 9:28 AM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:


When you have a dead lithium battery which the voltage drops too low
(due to sitting too long without being charged), which the machine
will refuse to charge for safety reasons. One has a few options.

One is to charge it manually and thus bypassing the safety. This is
pretty dangerous since lithium batteries can burst into flames if the
voltage is too low and you try to recharge them. If it does burst into
flames, I believe water makes this chemical fire only worse. So to be
safe, I guess to do this outside and if it does burst into flames, do
it in an area where nothing else around will burn. As I don't know if
you can stop it from burning without special equipment for chemical
fires.

Another trick is to put the battery in the freezer. I don't know why
this sometimes works. I'm guessing as the battery voltage is higher
when cold. Then drop it into the machine. And it might be enough to
convince the safety circuits it is ok to charge.

I tried the latter trick first with this dead battery and it brought
it back to life. So this is something one can try if they find
themselves in a similar situation.


I like this site, for it's in-depth articles.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...w_temperatures


"Many battery users are unaware that consumer-grade lithium-ion batteries
cannot be charged below 0°C (32°F). Although the pack appears to be
charging normally, plating of metallic lithium can occur on the anode
during a subfreezing charge. The plating is permanent and cannot be
removed with cycling. Batteries with lithium plating are known to be
more vulnerable to failure if exposed to vibration or other stressful
conditions."

HTH,
Paul

I am not sure if it was batteryuniversity.com saying things that were
seriously wrong or not. It was one of them anyway. And I have found many
who pretend to know a lot about batteries who really don't.

Now having said this. People who has a lithium battery that sat too long
that the safety circuits will refuse to charge it. What can most users
do? Most will just probably dispose of them. Or they could throw it in
the freezer for an hour and give it a shot. And if it works, they have
their battery back. Surely it is far better than what they had before.

And the battery I brought back to life through freezing appears to have
seen very little use if any at all. Because it has its full rated
capacity back and it is working just fine today.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center