Windows Live Mail

Paladin wrote:
On 2014-03-15, ...winston‫ wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , BillW50 writes:

Anybody still creating new software that runs under XP are supporting
it IMHO. And once a company drops support, it is now fair game as far
as I am concern. If the damn lawyers don't like it, then support it
themselves. ;-)

Ah, that's a very narrow interpretation of "support"! I think most
people would say support means continue producing extras, or at least
bugfixes, for it.
[

It's easy to overlook that support for consumer base is primarily the
OEM responsibility for the operating system (pre-built pcs) and devices
and third party software manufacturers(latter two designed for a
respective o/s). Their game is the same, limit the number of supported
operating systems, devices and software versions in order to provide the
ability to remove support and warranty accrual costs off their budget
thereby improving their private or public balance sheet.

Microsoft is no different. The business model is moving toward
supporting 2 o/s versions (current and past version with their multiple
editions) vs. the current five versionis(four when XP ends) - Win8.1,
8.0, 7, and Vista..In the foreseeable future Vista (black sheep) and 8.0
(mandatory upgrade to 8.1 required) will drop out. Like the OEM above,
the same game reduce any burden, expense and accrual costs.


The 5 OS support model is their own fault.
They pushed that crappy Vista, then dumped it (on certain users, anyhow).
Then 7, then 8 soon followed with a craptacular GUI spoogefest.

So, you're saying to get out of warranting ****ty OSes, they should release them
more often, without any "real" benefit to the consumer?

I hope Xbox is doing well.

Too bad one can't just use Linux.
Seems a good way to avoid all that "the toolbar is a different colour therefore
a new OS".

Yuck.

Lol...no that's not 9releasing more often) what I said at all.....I just
explained the apparent business model and why those decisions occur.

Five o/s support ? Their fault. Certainly, and imo that will never, ever
happen again. No more extensions of significant length if any at all.
End of life-cycle mainstream support stays fixed, extended support for
security updates expiring on schedule. Need mainstream support after
EOL for consumer versions....get out the credit card and pay the going
rate for fee based support. For the SMB and Enterprise..sign the
contract for volume licensing support or pay someone else.

Whatever opinion we have of the past (pre 7/8x) is of diminishing
significance and in many cases no longer matters. Company decisions on
those are no longer on the table (complaints and feedback allowed
through the available channels [this group is not one of them g] but
the sole action on that input is the circular file.


--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

In message , BillW50
writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

So you prefer SP2 to SP3? I'm curious as to why - unless it's hardware
requirements (which I concede are somewhat higher for SP3 - I'd
certainly not try to run SP3 in less than ¾G, probably 1G if Firefox
might be used, and I think there are processor/graphics requirements
too). But if you have a non-hardware reason for preferring SP2, I'd be
interested to see it.

I'm interested that you include Linux and Android too. (Is Android
actually available as a desktop OS?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A lot of people think that being skinny is the happy ending, and its not.
Being happy is the happy ending. - Sarah Millican, in Radio Times 3-9 March
2012

On 3/22/2014 7:16 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , BillW50 writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

So you prefer SP2 to SP3? I'm curious as to why - unless it's hardware
requirements (which I concede are somewhat higher for SP3 - I'd
certainly not try to run SP3 in less than ¾G, probably 1G if Firefox
might be used, and I think there are processor/graphics requirements
too). But if you have a non-hardware reason for preferring SP2, I'd be
interested to see it.

My XP machines runs either 2G or 4G of RAM. And I have found nothing yet
that claims requires XP SP3 as to not run under SP2 too. And I find SP2
with the hotfix KB909095 (takes care of more than 1G hibernation bug) to
be extremely stable.

While SP3 introduces some new bugs and doesn't seem as stable as SP2 to
me. One problem with SP3 is with OE6 and compaction.

I'm interested that you include Linux and Android too. (Is Android
actually available as a desktop OS?)

Yes, Android does run on a desktop PC. At least I have seen the Android
iso for the Asus EeePC. And any OS that runs on them, will also run on
this Gateway machine as the chipsets are in the same family. My
Alienware machines use totally different chips and that iso probably
won't work on them. Anyway one of my Androids is a larger tablet that I
connected up a keyboard and a mouse to.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v24.3.0
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , BillW50 writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

Mine is (most preferred first)

Win 7
XP
Vista (with Aero and rounded window corners turned OFF)
Win 2K
Win 8 (with Classic Shell)
[huge gap]
Win 8 (without Classic Shell)
Android

In order for any version of Windows to be usable, there are two changes I
make:

- turn OFF tapping on a laptop touchpad; when moving the cursor rapidly from
one side of the screen to the other I usually have to make several
left-to-right movements of my finger and I usually press too hard and end up
performing an unwanted left-click

- make sure that the taskbar is permanently displayed; my wife likes her
taskbar to appear briefly only which she mouses over it, and I find it very
frustrating to to be able to see the clock and the running apps all the time

This is for UI alone. I can't judge Win 8 on functionality and configuration
because my only experience with it is setting it up and importing email,
browser favourites, documents etc for a variety of clients - I've not
actually got my own Win 8 PC to play with in depth.

Microsoft have got it VERY badly wrong in the dumbing-down and
over-simplification that they have introduced with Metro apps: I miss the
minimise/maximise/close buttons and a proper menu bar with File, Edit etc.
I'm sure these things were necessary for mobile phones, but why reduce
everyone to a lowest common denominator even for mouse-driven
desktop/laptop.

Android suffers from not having a right-click ability to copy/paste files
from one folder to another or text from one place to another in a paragraph,
and suffers (like all touch-screen UIs) because of imprecision in being able
to position the cursor quickly but accurately when editing typos in text. I
could probably use my phone so much more effectively and with so much less
frustration if I could hook up a full-size keyboard and mouse to it :-)

Choosing between various versions of Windows up to Win 7 is difficult
because they are pretty similar. It's a shame that Microsoft chose to lock
in the version of Windows with the version of the email program, because I
like the UI of Windows Mail (Vista) and Outlook Express (XP) more than
Windows Live Mail (Win 7) - it looks more professional and less toy-like. I
loathe WLM V2011 because of its ribbon interface; WLM V2009 has a non-ribbon
interface and suffers only because its Calendar doesn't seem to have any way
of setting reminders, which is a regression from Windows Mail on Vista.

On 3/22/2014 12:38 PM, NY wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , BillW50
writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

Mine is (most preferred first)

Win 7
XP
Vista (with Aero and rounded window corners turned OFF)
Win 2K
Win 8 (with Classic Shell)
[huge gap]
Win 8 (without Classic Shell)
Android

In order for any version of Windows to be usable, there are two changes
I make:

- turn OFF tapping on a laptop touchpad;

Oh yes! That drives me nuts having that on. Yet there are people who
loves that feature.

when moving the cursor rapidly from one side of the screen to the
other I usually have to make several left-to-right movements of my
finger and I usually press too hard and end up performing an unwanted
left-click

Yes I hate that too. But you can change that with the acceleration
slider. I can move from one end to the other (moving fast) in about 20%
of the pad.

- make sure that the taskbar is permanently displayed; my wife likes her
taskbar to appear briefly only which she mouses over it, and I find it
very frustrating to to be able to see the clock and the running apps all
the time

Yeah I don't care much for that auto-hiding taskbar. Although I do like
the auto-hiding panels and launch bars. Windows 8 uses auto-hiding bars too.

This is for UI alone. I can't judge Win 8 on functionality and
configuration because my only experience with it is setting it up and
importing email, browser favourites, documents etc for a variety of
clients - I've not actually got my own Win 8 PC to play with in depth.

I kind of liked it from the start. It was different, but not hard IMHO.
And different is ok by me as long as it isn't harder than how I did
things before.

Microsoft have got it VERY badly wrong in the dumbing-down and
over-simplification that they have introduced with Metro apps: I miss
the minimise/maximise/close buttons and a proper menu bar with File,
Edit etc. I'm sure these things were necessary for mobile phones, but
why reduce everyone to a lowest common denominator even for mouse-driven
desktop/laptop.

I don't know... I don't think it is so bad. Nor do I see most desktop
Windows 8 users using those Metro Apps very much, so what does it really
matter? Although users who uses Windows phones will probably use them a
lot even on the desktop. And for them, it works the same.

Android suffers from not having a right-click ability to copy/paste
files from one folder to another or text from one place to another in a
paragraph, and suffers (like all touch-screen UIs) because of
imprecision in being able to position the cursor quickly but accurately
when editing typos in text.

CTRL-C and CTRL-V works fine on my Androids.

I could probably use my phone so much more effectively and with so
much less frustration if I could hook up a full-size keyboard and
mouse to it :-)

Oh... yes that is what I use a lot on my Androids.

Choosing between various versions of Windows up to Win 7 is difficult
because they are pretty similar. It's a shame that Microsoft chose to
lock in the version of Windows with the version of the email program,
because I like the UI of Windows Mail (Vista) and Outlook Express (XP)
more than Windows Live Mail (Win 7) - it looks more professional and
less toy-like. I loathe WLM V2011 because of its ribbon interface; WLM
V2009 has a non-ribbon interface and suffers only because its Calendar
doesn't seem to have any way of setting reminders, which is a regression
from Windows Mail on Vista.

Well I just purchased my first copy of Vista. And the main reason is
that I heard a lot of interesting things about Windows Mail, which isn't
found in any other version. But there are hacks that allows you to copy
it to 7 and 8. So that was my main interest in getting Vista.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v24.3.0
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center

"BillW50" wrote in message
...
Choosing between various versions of Windows up to Win 7 is difficult
because they are pretty similar. It's a shame that Microsoft chose to
lock in the version of Windows with the version of the email program,
because I like the UI of Windows Mail (Vista) and Outlook Express (XP)
more than Windows Live Mail (Win 7) - it looks more professional and
less toy-like. I loathe WLM V2011 because of its ribbon interface; WLM
V2009 has a non-ribbon interface and suffers only because its Calendar
doesn't seem to have any way of setting reminders, which is a regression
from Windows Mail on Vista.

Well I just purchased my first copy of Vista. And the main reason is that
I heard a lot of interesting things about Windows Mail, which isn't found
in any other version. But there are hacks that allows you to copy it to 7
and 8. So that was my main interest in getting Vista.

The acid question: Is there a way of copying the 32-bit Windows Mail from a
Vista installation CD so it will run on 64-bit Windows 7? I've not found any
way of doing it: Google says it can be done, but "conveniently" assumes that
you have access to a 64-bit Vista installation disc or are installing the
32-bit version on 32-bit Win 7.

If it can be done, are there foolproof no-catch instructions?

Hi NY

NY wrote:

The acid question: Is there a way of copying the 32-bit Windows Mail from a
Vista installation CD so it will run on 64-bit Windows 7? I've not found any
way of doing it: Google says it can be done, but "conveniently" assumes that
you have access to a 64-bit Vista installation disc or are installing the
32-bit version on 32-bit Win 7.

If it can be done, are there foolproof no-catch instructions?


My guess as a programmer is that it can not be done in a normal copy program from
one pc to the other, kind of way.
All windows programs Notepad, Write, Charmap etc. all rely on system Dll files in
order to run, those are normally already loaded and the programs just call functions
for buttons windows etc. that reside in those Dll's.
And as far as I know it is not possible to make a 32bit program run with the 64bit
version of its Dll files.
There might be a tiny possibility to make Live Mail 32bit run on a Win7 64bit if
and only if you can get all used Dll files and also that you are so lucky that
Live Mail is actually written in such a way that it loads all those Dll files and
not just use those that should be loaded by the system already.


Best regards
Asger-P
http://asger-p.dk/software/qlaunch.php
QLaunch is a must try, 15 new tools.

In message , Asger Joergensen
writes:
[]
There might be a tiny possibility to make Live Mail 32bit run on a
Win7 64bit if
and only if you can get all used Dll files and also that you are so lucky that

One of those dependency tracker utilities might be able to tell you all
the DLLs that it calls.

Live Mail is actually written in such a way that it loads all those Dll
files and
not just use those that should be loaded by the system already.
[]
I _think_ most prog.s will use routines from DLLs stored in the same
directory as themselves before they use the system ones. But I don't
know if this is still the case.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Not an electronic sausage!"

On 3/22/2014 12:38 PM, NY wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , BillW50
writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

Mine is (most preferred first)

Win 7
XP
Vista (with Aero and rounded window corners turned OFF)
Win 2K
Win 8 (with Classic Shell)
[huge gap]
Win 8 (without Classic Shell)
Android

In order for any version of Windows to be usable, there are two
changes
I make:

- turn OFF tapping on a laptop touchpad;

Oh yes! That drives me nuts having that on. Yet there are people who
loves that feature.

when moving the cursor rapidly from one side of the screen to the
other I usually have to make several left-to-right movements of my
finger and I usually press too hard and end up performing an unwanted
left-click

Yes I hate that too. But you can change that with the acceleration
slider. I can move from one end to the other (moving fast) in about 20%
of the pad.

- make sure that the taskbar is permanently displayed; my wife likes
her taskbar to appear briefly only which she mouses over it, and I
find it very frustrating to to be able to see the clock and the
running apps all the time

Yeah I don't care much for that auto-hiding taskbar. Although I do like
the auto-hiding panels and launch bars. Windows 8 uses auto-hiding
bars too.

This is for UI alone. I can't judge Win 8 on functionality and
configuration because my only experience with it is setting it up and
importing email, browser favourites, documents etc for a variety of
clients - I've not actually got my own Win 8 PC to play with in depth.

I kind of liked it from the start. It was different, but not hard IMHO.
And different is ok by me as long as it isn't harder than how I did
things before.

Microsoft have got it VERY badly wrong in the dumbing-down and
over-simplification that they have introduced with Metro apps: I miss
the minimise/maximise/close buttons and a proper menu bar with File,
Edit etc. I'm sure these things were necessary for mobile phones, but
why reduce everyone to a lowest common denominator even for
mouse-driven desktop/laptop.

I don't know... I don't think it is so bad. Nor do I see most desktop
Windows 8 users using those Metro Apps very much, so what does it really
matter? Although users who uses Windows phones will probably use them a
lot even on the desktop. And for them, it works the same.

Android suffers from not having a right-click ability to copy/paste
files from one folder to another or text from one place to another in
a paragraph, and suffers (like all touch-screen UIs) because of
imprecision in being able to position the cursor quickly but
accurately when editing typos in text.

CTRL-C and CTRL-V works fine on my Androids.

I could probably use my phone so much more effectively and with so
much less frustration if I could hook up a full-size keyboard and
mouse to it :-)

Oh... yes that is what I use a lot on my Androids.

Choosing between various versions of Windows up to Win 7 is difficult
because they are pretty similar. It's a shame that Microsoft chose to
lock in the version of Windows with the version of the email program,
because I like the UI of Windows Mail (Vista) and Outlook Express (XP)
more than Windows Live Mail (Win 7) - it looks more professional and
less toy-like. I loathe WLM V2011 because of its ribbon interface; WLM
V2009 has a non-ribbon interface and suffers only because its Calendar
doesn't seem to have any way of setting reminders, which is a
regression from Windows Mail on Vista.

Well I just purchased my first copy of Vista. And the main reason is
that I heard a lot of interesting things about Windows Mail, which isn't
found in any other version. But there are hacks that allows you to copy
it to 7 and 8. So that was my main interest in getting Vista.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core2 Duo T5600 1.83GHz - 4GB - Windows XP SP2

One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are not
interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
possible. For that reason may people are happy to fork out
up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product. Come
in Apple!!!!!!!. Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work "simply".
My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with an
Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
instead.
A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead of
her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing there will
never be another MS product in that household!
John


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...

In message , BillW50
writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

So you prefer SP2 to SP3? I'm curious as to why - unless it's hardware
requirements (which I concede are somewhat higher for SP3 - I'd
certainly not try to run SP3 in less than ¾G, probably 1G if Firefox
might be used, and I think there are processor/graphics requirements
too). But if you have a non-hardware reason for preferring SP2, I'd be
interested to see it.

I'm interested that you include Linux and Android too. (Is Android
actually available as a desktop OS?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A lot of people think that being skinny is the happy ending, and its not.
Being happy is the happy ending. - Sarah Millican, in Radio Times 3-9 March
2012

John wrote, On 4/5/2014 11:40 PM:
One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are
not interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
possible. For that reason may people are happy to fork out
up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product.
Come in Apple!!!!!!!. Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work
"simply".
My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with
an Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
instead.
A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead
of her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing
there will never be another MS product in that household!
John


Everyone one is different.


My wife with no Windows 8 Experience and only using Win7 for email
(Outlook), internet use (IE) and uploading an occasional picture from
her camera and only a no-smart flip phone took about 1 day to be
comfortable with Windows 8 Modern UI and the Desktop on an i5 laptop.

One evening I removed the hard drive and inserted the Win7 drive so it
could be updated (not having done it for 2 months). Finished the update
and turned it off, went to bed with the intent of replacing the Win7
drive with the Win8 in the morning. The first thing she said before I
managed to get my first cup of coffee next morning was
'What did you do with *MY* Windows 8'

A few minutes later, she asked my how come I never told her about SkyDrive.



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 2014-04-05 11:40 PM, John wrote:
One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are
not interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
possible. For that reason may people are happy to fork out
up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product.
Come in Apple!!!!!!!. Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work
"simply".
My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with
an Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
instead.
A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead
of her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing
there will never be another MS product in that household!
John

I bought a Mac Mini for my parents in November or so. It was a
replacement for an earlier Mac Mini whose hard disk died and left them
with an unusable machine. Since it was slow, I figured an upgrade made
sense. Of course, being the technologically-gifted one, I had to set up
the machine for them. I couldn't believe how a NEW machine could be so
slow. A Core i5 with 4GB RAM which was actually felt much slower than
the tablet I'm posting this message on right now with 2GB of RAM and an
Intel Atom. Every few weeks or so, I also had to come home and fix
something which went wrong as a result of stupid permission problems.
The last time, fixing permissions took two hours and even GETTING to the
Disk Utility was difficult because the machine behaved erratically.

Say what you will about the Mac but no, it doesn't work. Windows works
and it works well. If your daughter was too lazy to figure out the new
interface of Windows, which honestly takes about five minutes, then that
doesn't make a platform than another. Whether Windows 8 or 8.1, the
system is not as bad as zealots claim and the reality is that under the
hood, Windows 8 is a fantastic system. I actually prefer it over 7.

--
Silver Slimer
Wikipedia & OpenMedia Supporter
GNU/Linux's place is in the trash can

Silver Slimer wrote:
On 2014-04-05 11:40 PM, John wrote:
One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are
not interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
possible. For that reason may people are happy to fork out
up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product.
Come in Apple!!!!!!!. Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work
"simply".
My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with
an Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
instead.
A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead
of her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing
there will never be another MS product in that household!
John

I bought a Mac Mini for my parents in November or so. It was a
replacement for an earlier Mac Mini whose hard disk died and left them
with an unusable machine. Since it was slow, I figured an upgrade made
sense. Of course, being the technologically-gifted one, I had to set up
the machine for them. I couldn't believe how a NEW machine could be so
slow. A Core i5 with 4GB RAM which was actually felt much slower than
the tablet I'm posting this message on right now with 2GB of RAM and an
Intel Atom. Every few weeks or so, I also had to come home and fix
something which went wrong as a result of stupid permission problems.
The last time, fixing permissions took two hours and even GETTING to the
Disk Utility was difficult because the machine behaved erratically.

Say what you will about the Mac but no, it doesn't work. Windows works
and it works well. If your daughter was too lazy to figure out the new
interface of Windows, which honestly takes about five minutes, then that
doesn't make a platform than another. Whether Windows 8 or 8.1, the
system is not as bad as zealots claim and the reality is that under the
hood, Windows 8 is a fantastic system. I actually prefer it over 7.


Your parents should take the Mini Mac back to the shop and either get
their money back or a new one.

--
Blue

I think there's a lot to that. Apple is for people who
don't want to think about it. (Or who don't mind paying
a premium price to increase their chances of getting
laid by hanging around at Starbucks pretending to write
term papers.)

One thing I think they all could improve on, though,
is the presentation. Microsoft makes control more
available, but discourages people with abstruse tech
talk and warnings. Apple just plain hides things. Linux
distributions are beginning to look a lot like Windows.
("Root? No, root isn't root anymore. You want sudo.
How do you become sudo? Well, if you're qualified to
know you'll figure it out.... What, you want a UI for
that?... What's wrong with command line?... Why do
we have to put up with idiots like you in Linuxville?")

A computer *is* an extremely complex and powerful
machine. It's not easy to make it simple and intuitive.
But I think the major OSs and a lot of software do
express two major flaws that don't help matters: One is
that they're designed to minimize tech support calls.
The other is that they equate lack of tech aptitude
with stupidity. (An expression of geek arrogance. These
things are designed by people with little socialization,
who've spent *way* too much time playing computer
games for children, and who think lunch is a Pepsi and
a candy bar -- adult adolescents.)

There are millions of doctors, lawyers, professors and
scientists using Macs. Intelligent, accomplished people.
And what do they get? Animated cartoon characters that
come out of the bottom bar and then get "vacuumed"
back in, Looney-Tunes-style, with a general design that
prevents people from accessing most of the system. The
whole UI looks like it was designed by a 12 year old girl
who uses little hearts to dot her i's. Just because people
have difficulty learning how to use their computer, that's
no reason to think they're stupid and talk down to them.

* If you want to change a setting in Windows you have to
get through 2 warnings and a button marked "Advanced".
It's probably not covered in the help. If it is, the explanation
uses several unexplained terms, making it useless to the
average reader.

* In Linux you have to look up some arcane command line
and get sidetracked into long discussions about how to
pick a "favorite" shell.

* On a Mac, Lord Jobs has ruled that you don't need to
change the settings. (He told the architect of his
ludicrous spaceship building that the windows shouldn't
open because people just get into trouble when they can
open things.)

If they just took a respectful approach and tried to
write clear directions then a lot more people could get
more out of their computers.


"John" wrote in message
. au...
| One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are not
| interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
| They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
| possible. For that reason may people are happy to fork out
| up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product.
Come
| in Apple!!!!!!!. Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work "simply".
| My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with an
| Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
| instead.
| A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead
of
| her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing there
will
| never be another MS product in that household!
| John
|
|
| "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
| ...
|
| In message , BillW50
| writes:
| In o.uk,
| Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
| []
| I think my decreasing order of preference would be
|
| Win7
| Win8 with Start8
| WinXP
| Win2K
| Win8 without Start8
|
| Mine is like this:
|
| XP SP2
| XP SP3
| Win8 with/without Start8
| Win7
| Win2K
| Linux
| Android
|
| So you prefer SP2 to SP3? I'm curious as to why - unless it's hardware
| requirements (which I concede are somewhat higher for SP3 - I'd
| certainly not try to run SP3 in less than ¾G, probably 1G if Firefox
| might be used, and I think there are processor/graphics requirements
| too). But if you have a non-hardware reason for preferring SP2, I'd be
| interested to see it.
|
| I'm interested that you include Linux and Android too. (Is Android
| actually available as a desktop OS?)
| --
| J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
|
| A lot of people think that being skinny is the happy ending, and its not.
| Being happy is the happy ending. - Sarah Millican, in Radio Times 3-9
March
| 2012
|

On 4/5/14 9:40 PM, John wrote:
One of the early "posters" I think hit the on the head. Many users are not
interested in PC,s, Os,s, workarounds, obscure cures.
They just want a PC as a tool that works as intuitively and reliably as
possible.

That's true. And I remember reading many years ago that computers would
never be popular until they worked as easily as a kitchen appliance.

For that reason may people are happy to fork out
up to 100% more for a machine that does the same task as a MS product. Come
in Apple!!!!!!!.

This spending trait applies to everything, not just computers. Some
people buy Cadillacs, some Ford Fusions. They both do the same task,
get you from A to B. TV's by size, resolution, etc. They all do the
same thing, provide you with entertainment.

So, what's the real difference? None that I can see. People are
willing to pay more if that's what they want, have the money, and
perceive a better value for them in the more expensive product.

Sure, they are overpriced but they simply work "simply".

I really, really hate the "overpriced" comments about anything, without
supporting evidence. I guess we could say Cadillacs are over priced,
Sony TV's are overpriced, and so on.

Just like cars and televisions, the quality of the components in the
products vary. A few years ago, I read some posts arguing about the
cost of various computers. Usually it was started by saying Apples were
"overpriced" or similar comment. Yet, when someone actually sat down,
and specced out a Windows computer using comparable internal components,
the price difference dropped dramatically. Yes, Apples were still more
expensive, but there are things you get from Apple you don't get from
Microsoft and probably Linux. When was the last time you walked into a
Dell store for help? Or an HP store? How many malware issues are there
with Windows compared to OS X?

There's more to making a purchasing decision than just money. My iMac
display is still superior to any Windows display I've seen, with the
possible exception of an AOC monitor I saw in a Staples store a few
years ago. When I went to build my Win 7/8/???? I wanted that AOC
monitor, but it was no longer available. :-(

My daughter with the original problem is case in point. She comes with an
Apple history but her budget now made her go W8 on a HP "all in one"
instead.
A week or two later she is still trying to get the thing working instead of
her old Apple that just worked out of the box. I,m just guessing there will
never be another MS product in that household!

I think many computer oriented folks like us tend to forget that "one
size does not fit all". I've mentioned a friend of mine in posts here
and there that had to buy a Windows computer when her school district
went Windows. She never could figure it out. Unfortunately, her home
was broken into, and due to vigilant neighbors, only the Vista laptop
was taken. Insurance paid full replacement. I talked her into spending
the extra $$ for a Mac laptop. Next think I knew, she was online
telling me how easy the laptop was to use. And I was still sitting here
trying to figure this iMac out! LOL


John


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...

In message , BillW50
writes:
In o.uk,
Andy Burns typed on Wed, 19 Mar 2014 08:12:41 +0000:
[]
I think my decreasing order of preference would be

Win7
Win8 with Start8
WinXP
Win2K
Win8 without Start8

Mine is like this:

XP SP2
XP SP3
Win8 with/without Start8
Win7
Win2K
Linux
Android

So you prefer SP2 to SP3? I'm curious as to why - unless it's hardware
requirements (which I concede are somewhat higher for SP3 - I'd
certainly not try to run SP3 in less than ¾G, probably 1G if Firefox
might be used, and I think there are processor/graphics requirements
too). But if you have a non-hardware reason for preferring SP2, I'd be
interested to see it.

I'm interested that you include Linux and Android too. (Is Android
actually available as a desktop OS?)



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.3.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"