Privacy questions Windows 8.1 Professional

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 00:25:55 GMT, John Aldred wrote:

On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:25:07 +0000, Yes wrote:

I'm a single user with only the one pc. I avoid opening accounts at
places unless ABSOLUTELY necessary and have no intention to put my files
into a cloud environment.

I read at NewEgg one user complaining that Windows 8.1 requires an
account with one of the Microsoft places - their store???. I've also
been reading the threads dealing with Skydrive although it seems that
that aspect of Windows 8.1 can be permanently disabled, so that seems
like a non-issue.

Can someone give more details about if an account has to be set up in
order to install and use Windows 8.1 in its day to day usage? Assuming
no change in what I do now, I use Firefox as my default browser, Google
as my default search engine but lots of other ones bookmarked, an old
version of Microsoft Office and quite a few open source freeware apps.

My main issue is that I do not want to use cloud computing unless an
employer requires it, and then that becomes his problem! Secondarily, I
prefer my privacy so it'd be nicer if an account is not necessary.


When I upgraded from windows 7 Pro to Windows 8 pro I was given the
option of logging into my computer with a Microsoft account or a local
account. I chose a local account.

When I upgraded from Windows 8 to 8.1 the system gave me no choice -
either login with a Microsoft account or create one. At this point I
clicked the back button to the previous set-up page and disconnected my
router. I then proceeded to the next page again. This time after watching
the circling wheel for a minute or two, the system reported a connection
problem and allowed me to continue with a local login.

Now if I wish to use Skydrive or any other of the Microsoft services I
have to log into them separately with a Microsoft account. That suits me
fine as I don't normally require them, although I do have a Microsoft
account.

John

I just updated to 8.1 this afternoon. I also had no choice but to make
an account or sign in with an existing one. I went in circles trying to
get around it but couldn't.

But then I found in my password file an old Windows Live account, but
Windows didn't accept it. I clicked Next, expecting nothing, but I
suddenly had the opportunity to go on without the account.

Weird.

Not the only weirdness. Windows told me I had to uninstall Sentinel
something before the installation would proceed (way before the above
was happening). So I clicked on Uninstall, but nothing seemed to happen.
Then I clicked on Retry. Same message, so I went to Add/Remove programs.
Nothing there.

Googling the message (which I still remembered at that time) got me to a
download from the provider of the program and instructions on how to use
it.

An hour or so wasted, but it *did* work ;-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Yes wrote:
The Local Account appears to still have the ability
to use SkyDrive, but as far as I can tell, using it
is not required for either account, at least in
8.1.

While a Local Account can be used in Windows 8 or 8.1 one can not use or
access SkyDrive without signing on with a MSFT (Microsoft) Account.

When using a Local Account and attempting to access SkyDrive the o/s
will prompt one to sign on with a MSFT account.
- the Local Account will still be in use, but the user will be signed
on to MSFT servers. The same occurs when attempting to access other
syncable apps or services integrated in the Windows 8/8.1 o/s.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

Gene E. Bloch wrote:


I just updated to 8.1 this afternoon. I also had no choice but to make
an account or sign in with an existing one. I went in circles trying to
get around it but couldn't.

But then I found in my password file an old Windows Live account, but
Windows didn't accept it. I clicked Next, expecting nothing, but I
suddenly had the opportunity to go on without the account.

Welcome to Windows 8.1 g

Both Windows 8 and 8.1 will default to creation of a Local Account when
creation of a MSFT fails (including using a Live ID account where the
password is incorrect or the Live ID account is marked by the web server
as inactive or the permanently deleted).

Just for fun..you might try using the Live ID account username/pw to
logon at Outlook.com
- if still active and the correct pw used it will signon (it may
inform you that messages are no longer available but will autogenerate a
new message in the Inbox (Welcome to Outlook.com or similar)
- if inactive and not permanently deleted from the server it may allow
logon with the correct password and/or request a security proof (Secret
Question, alt email etc
- if permanently deleted the username may be available for reuse to
create a new account...though it takes some amount of time after
permanent deletion when it will be available (MSFT has yet to publish
the time frame).

An account goes into inactive status after 365 days of inactivity (any
web service, not just mail) and then tagged for permanent deletion (the
account deletion may occur on day 366 or later...how much of delay after
365 days of inactivity is still not publicly documented.

With the advent of Windows 8...use of a Live ID (MSFT Account) with a
Hotmail/Live/MSN/Outlook.com domain with the POP3 protocol in an email
client no longer qualifies as a signon. I.e. to prevent inactivity timer
logon in to any web UI service in a browser within 365 days to reset the
timer. As noted above when the actual purging occurs is still not
publicly documented.

Two things are apparently certain...if you can't logon or receive a
request to reset the password or secret question or other proof then its
either in inactive or waiting to be purged status or the account name
was made available for use by someone else. If you can create a new
account with the same user name it was purged and available for the new
account creation.



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

generic name wrote:

The thing about the cloud movement is very close to going back to
the "mainframe" idea with the "personal computer" no longer being
personal but operates close to a dumb terminal.

I made an almost identical remark in another group sometime ago. It
seems to me the word "cloud" is supposed to fool users into thinking this
is a new idea! I find that the "cloud" has been with users since the
inception of server-side scripting. You push data up, another computer
makes a change or computation - and there you have it. Hell, even an FTP
server used as backup goes under the definition of "cloud storage". It's
just a marketing term as far as I'm concerned. And, FWIW, I never store
personal or sensitive documents on a computer I have no admin control
over.


--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

Ghostrider " 00 wrote:

On 11/1/2013 8:56 AM, generic name wrote:
On 2013-11-01, Yes wrote:
Neil Gould wrote:

Yes wrote:
-- snipped --

Caveat: I'm also new to 8 / 8.1, so there may be options that I'm not
aware of yet.

I recently purchased a laptop with 8 installed. The first thing it
asked for was an email account, and as part of its validation process
a Microsoft Account was set up. There is a lot of encouragement to do
things on-line and in clouds, which I also am not interested in, so I
explored other ways to work with the computer. In short, there is the
option to set up a "Local Account", which I did. The Local Account
appears to still have the ability to use SkyDrive, but as far as I
can tell, using it is not required for either account, at least in
8.1.

However, it has been pretty clear that the "personal computer" is an
"old-timey" notion that is being whittled away at, and post XP,
on-line access is presumed, if not required (even XP presumed it for
certain functions).

As for your preferred apps, I had no problem installing Chrome,
Firefox, etc., and Google and Bing are already search options in
those apps as well as IE. I don't know about the compatibility with
older versions of Office, but it would have limited utility for
business uses, since some folks feel the pressure for the latest
versions of such things. MS is marching toward Office 365 (which
sounds like it should be a Whole Foods product to me), which I think
would require on-line access to use it. There goes privacy.

I fall under the category of "old timer" :-) I have my pc logged in
24/7 because the connection is available and convenient, not due to
necessity. If I could, I would make all my programs notify and ask for
permission to "phone home"; unfortunately, I have yet to find anything
that does a good job at enforcing that type of policy, at least not
without a significant performance hit on resources on my computer. One
reason I chose the Pro edition is because it offers Hyper-V. I expect
to use that to run the apps I need or want to play around with.

I appreciate the issue of pressure to use newer apps for business
reasons. I'm fortunate in that the companies for whom I do work have
not moved up yet to the "latest and greatest version yet" and my
existing software satisfices their requirements. As you point out,
It's only a matter of time, however, before that changes.

I feel sad that there is such a large herd mentality to pressure people
and businesses to switch to using the cloud environment. The cloud has
signfificant benefits, but it is neither private nor confidential
regardless of all the assurances one may receive.

Forget about hacking. Company policies can change if there's a change
of management. Even existing policies are out the window if a company
goes under or its assets get sold. And there is little if anything
said about how the hardware on which ones data is stored gets disposed
of to ensure that confidentiality and privacy is maintained. Nor is it
guaranteed that one's files will always be available 24/7. Hopefully,
a company would have significantly more resources to maintain and care
for the operation of their hardware than an individual probably has,
but all we have is their word, not any easy way to verify it.

John

As another old timer, I "chuckle" on the moverment to place nearly
everything on the cloud. Also don't know the details about the
office365 but 1st glance is it also "on the cloud"...

The thing about the cloud movement is very close to going back to
the "mainframe" idea with the "personal computer" no longer being
personal but operates close to a dumb terminal.


What goes around has come around. The so-called "thin client" is not
much more than today's version of the dumb terminal. The new business
model will have clients leasing applications and renting storage space,
all from "the cloud".

Someone is just looking for new revenue streams since powerful hardware
and dirt-cheap local storage is a reality.


--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

....winston wrote:

Two things are apparently certain...if you can't logon or receive a
request to reset the password or secret question or other proof then its
either in inactive or waiting to be purged status or the account name
was made available for use by someone else. If you can create a new
account with the same user name it was purged and available for the new
account creation.

What a security nightmare. Once the account is locked, it should be
ineligible for re-use.

--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

G. Morgan wrote:
generic name wrote:

The thing about the cloud movement is very close to going back to
the "mainframe" idea with the "personal computer" no longer being
personal but operates close to a dumb terminal.

I made an almost identical remark in another group sometime ago. It
seems to me the word "cloud" is supposed to fool users into thinking this
is a new idea! I find that the "cloud" has been with users since the
inception of server-side scripting. You push data up, another computer
makes a change or computation - and there you have it. Hell, even an FTP
server used as backup goes under the definition of "cloud storage". It's
just a marketing term as far as I'm concerned. And, FWIW, I never store
personal or sensitive documents on a computer I have no admin control
over.


I think there is a subtle difference.

In a different era, the user was full aware data was
leaving the machine, and headed off to the server.
You had to explicitly use your FTP client.

The Microsoft implementation, data could be leaving the
machine any time. Leaving the user to have to figure out
"there goes my recipe for a new breakfast cereal". It's up
to the user to figure out that a Tile used on their machine,
has been uploading content while they're sitting there,
then change the default (insecure) setting to something
more reasonable.

If Microsoft can put in "Mother May I" UAC prompts, they
could also put in a prompt "can I transfer your recipe
for breakfast cereal, so the NSA can have a copy". A
prompt would make the user aware a configuration needed
to be changed. Sort of like Zone Alarm.

(Looks like they even managed to break Zone Alarm...)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20580...-win-8-1-.html

Paul

Paul wrote:

G. Morgan wrote:
generic name wrote:

The thing about the cloud movement is very close to going back to
the "mainframe" idea with the "personal computer" no longer being
personal but operates close to a dumb terminal.

I made an almost identical remark in another group sometime ago. It
seems to me the word "cloud" is supposed to fool users into thinking this
is a new idea! I find that the "cloud" has been with users since the
inception of server-side scripting. You push data up, another computer
makes a change or computation - and there you have it. Hell, even an FTP
server used as backup goes under the definition of "cloud storage". It's
just a marketing term as far as I'm concerned. And, FWIW, I never store
personal or sensitive documents on a computer I have no admin control
over.


I think there is a subtle difference.

In a different era, the user was full aware data was
leaving the machine, and headed off to the server.
You had to explicitly use your FTP client.

The Microsoft implementation, data could be leaving the
machine any time. Leaving the user to have to figure out
"there goes my recipe for a new breakfast cereal". It's up
to the user to figure out that a Tile used on their machine,
has been uploading content while they're sitting there,
then change the default (insecure) setting to something
more reasonable.

If Microsoft can put in "Mother May I" UAC prompts, they
could also put in a prompt "can I transfer your recipe
for breakfast cereal, so the NSA can have a copy". A
prompt would make the user aware a configuration needed
to be changed. Sort of like Zone Alarm.

That would be nice.

I don't have that problem, mine was upgraded to 8.1 a couple of weeks ago
but I had Skydrive turned off before the "upgrade". I have not bothered
to check if my local account still works/exists. I guess I should get on
that. My docs are saved to the HDD in the "docs" folder. Skydrive (when
it was active) pointed to a separate partition for storage.

Truth be told, I've been waiting for Win 8, now 8.1 to break so I can
install Debian on this laptop (I know, but I want a *reason* to do so).
So far, I can't break this OS no matter what I do.

(Looks like they even managed to break Zone Alarm...)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20580...-win-8-1-.html


Meh. I have always hated software firewalls. Nothing but trouble even
when they work properly.

--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:25:21 -0400, ...winston wrote:

Welcome to Windows 8.1 g

gg...

Other than the things I mentioned, and the fact that it genuinely seemed
to take twice as long as the original installation of 8.0, it went
pretty well.

I already have found that the interface changes are providing me with a
new opportunity to relearn an interface. Just what I wanted :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 02:25:21 -0400, ...winston wrote:

Just for fun..you might try using the Live ID account username/pw to
logon at Outlook.com
- if still active and the correct pw used it will signon (it may
inform you that messages are no longer available but will autogenerate a
new message in the Inbox (Welcome to Outlook.com or similar)
- if inactive and not permanently deleted from the server it may allow
logon with the correct password and/or request a security proof (Secret
Question, alt email etc
- if permanently deleted the username may be available for reuse to
create a new account...though it takes some amount of time after
permanent deletion when it will be available (MSFT has yet to publish
the time frame).

An account goes into inactive status after 365 days of inactivity (any
web service, not just mail) and then tagged for permanent deletion (the
account deletion may occur on day 366 or later...how much of delay after
365 days of inactivity is still not publicly documented.

"That account does not exist..."

Since it was in early 2010 (if I actually made it; my records express
some doubt), the 365 days have possibly expired :-)

The message form the Windows 8.1 setup was much less informative than
what outlook.com told me.

Thanks for the instructions.

I have no idea whether I will set up an account. It certainly looks
easy, but to the casual observer, I might look paranoid.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 2013-10-31 4:25 PM, Yes wrote:
I'm a single user with only the one pc. I avoid opening accounts at
places unless ABSOLUTELY necessary and have no intention to put my
files into a cloud environment.

I read at NewEgg one user complaining that Windows 8.1 requires an
account with one of the Microsoft places - their store???. I've also
been reading the threads dealing with Skydrive although it seems that
that aspect of Windows 8.1 can be permanently disabled, so that seems
like a non-issue.

Can someone give more details about if an account has to be set up in
order to install and use Windows 8.1 in its day to day usage? Assuming
no change in what I do now, I use Firefox as my default browser, Google
as my default search engine but lots of other ones bookmarked, an old
version of Microsoft Office and quite a few open source freeware apps.

My main issue is that I do not want to use cloud computing unless an
employer requires it, and then that becomes his problem! Secondarily,
I prefer my privacy so it'd be nicer if an account is not necessary.

Thanks,

John


If you install from scratch with the network unplugged, you can install
and run Windows 8.1 entirely without a Microsoft Passport / MSN / .NET /
Hotmail / Windows Live / Outlook.com type account.

Instead, the first "Local Account" you create while installing will be
one with the full Administrators group privileges.

As it is, if you want, you can abandon any Microsoft Passport / MSN /
..NET / Hotmail / Windows Live / Outlook.com type account you were
strong-armed to create.

At any time, just use the Microsoft Passport / MSN / .NET / Hotmail /
Windows Live / Outlook.com type account to create a new Local account,
add Administrators group privileges to it .. and from there just employ
that new one.

WireTalk

--

Are you Christian? But stumbling online?

The Lord makes all things new:

http://www.holinessprompter.com

New software for Christians who've decided to get honest.

--

And every man that hath this hope in
Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

1 John 3 : 3
--

WireTalk wrote:

At any time, just use the Microsoft Passport / MSN / .NET / Hotmail /
Windows Live / Outlook.com type account to create a new Local account,
add Administrators group privileges to it .. and from there just employ
that new one.

WireTalk


Fyi...you might want to extend that list...Google, Yahoo, AOL, just
aboubt any 3rd party provided email account(isps, web sites..), the
majority of domain based provided email accounts, email accounts such as
..org, .edu, .biz etc. can all be MSFT accounts to sign/log on to Windows 8x.

The first account created on Win8x is an Admin account.

--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 2013-11-15 1:42 PM, ...winston wrote:
WireTalk wrote:

At any time, just use the Microsoft Passport / MSN / .NET / Hotmail /
Windows Live / Outlook.com type account to create a new Local account,
add Administrators group privileges to it .. and from there just employ
that new one.

WireTalk


Fyi...you might want to extend that list...Google, Yahoo, AOL, just
aboubt any 3rd party provided email account(isps, web sites..), the
majority of domain based provided email accounts, email accounts such as
.org, .edu, .biz etc. can all be MSFT accounts to sign/log on to Windows
8x.

The first account created on Win8x is an Admin account.


LOL Things might be difficult the support staff if it weren't.

WireTalk

--

Are you Christian? But stumbling online?

The Lord makes all things new:

http://www.holinessprompter.com

New software for Christians who've decided to get honest.

--

And every man that hath this hope in
Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

1 John 3 : 3
--

On 2013-11-02 9:39 AM, Wolf K wrote:


Can't log onto SkyDrive? That's a security feature IMO. ;-)

[...]


You think?

WireTalk

--

Are you Christian? But stumbling online?

The Lord makes all things new:

http://www.holinessprompter.com

New software for Christians who've decided to get honest.

--

And every man that hath this hope in
Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.

1 John 3 : 3
--