Drive Bender Alternatives?

Per Char Jackson:
Currently, just 15 drives in the pool because that's how many fit
comfortably inside the Norco RPC-450b case,

Are you using SAS or SATA controller cards in the PC?
--
Pete Cresswell

Per (PeteCresswell):
Per Char Jackson:
Currently, just 15 drives in the pool because that's how many fit
comfortably inside the Norco RPC-450b case,

Are you using SAS or SATA controller cards in the PC?

OK... it's starting to soak in: the Norco product is actually a computer
case and not just a drive enclosure.... so number of cables becomes moot
since they are all within the case.

That case is starting to look more attractive than the drive enclosure I
was going on about - and not just on price because I am starting to come
around to the idea that the mobo I have been using is not up to the task
and I should bite the bullet and buy a newer mobo/CPU.

The CPU I am trying to use is an "Intel Core2 Duo E7400 @ 2.80GHz" with
4 gigs of RAM. Just finished re-formatting the System drive and
re-installing Windows 7. With a virgin clean install it's not too
bad, but once I put Avast on it and start fooling around with Disk
Management it starts getting slow to a similar extend that it was when
it was hosting DriveBender.

I've since added a couple of 2-TB drives connected directly to the
mobo's SATA headers... and I'll flesh it out to a total of 5 (the mobo
has six headers), then check the condition of each and install
DriveBender and see what happens.

But I'm not hopeful and already thinking in terms of which Mobo/CPU I
should get to put in the Norco box. Seems like an I7 is the
no-brainer.... a few extra bucks, and I get something that could be used
as my main PC if/when the need arose.

One of the SAS cards wants a "PCI Express 2.0" slot and another one
(that supports 16 drives) wants a something like "PCI3" or somesuch.
I find the slot descriptions confusing because some of them read kind of
like what my SystemInfo page lists, but not precisely...

I am partial to having all drives on a single controller card after
experiencing conflicts in the past trying to run two of the same model
RocketRaid cards at the same time.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 09:19:09 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:

You know you'll need one or more controllers to get additional SATA
ports, right? The controller will plug into the backplane, and the
drives will plug into the other side of the backplane as you slide them
in.

I am getting the impression that, with a "SAS" (whatever that is...)

More info he https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Attached_SCSI

controller, one card can handle many, many drives and, if you get the

Each SAS port can handle up to 4 SATA drives. The cards I use have two
SAS ports, so each card can handle up to 8 SATA drives.

right card, a single cable from PC/card to storage array can handle 16
drives. Other cards/cables seem to handle 4 drivers.... but the single
cable seems like a strong Nice-To-Have to me.

With the cards that I use, it takes two cards to get to 16 drives.

--

Char Jackson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 09:20:53 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
Currently, just 15 drives in the pool because that's how many fit
comfortably inside the Norco RPC-450b case,

Are you using SAS or SATA controller cards in the PC?

I'm primarily using two of these cards:

SuperMicro AOC-SASLP-MV8
https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-Ex.../dp/B002KGLDXU

Each card has two SAS ports, so you buy two SAS-to-SATA breakout cables
per card. Those cables have a SAS connector on one end and octopus to 4
SATA connectors at the other ends.

Example cable:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBYS2U/ref=pd_sim_147_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3N9C2AMEF8YY NS4QKW8G

--

Char Jackson

Per Char Jackson:
I'm primarily using two of these cards:

SuperMicro AOC-SASLP-MV8
https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-Ex.../dp/B002KGLDXU

Obviously not compatibility issues for you....

Given that, it would seem that two of those at $113 ($226 total) would
do the same job as one of these at $375:
https://www.amazon.com/16-PORT-Int-6.../dp/B003UNP05O

Aside from the higher-end slot it needs, what am I missing?

Throughput would be my first guess - but for a backup server, throughput
would seem close to moot since the file transfers are running through
the wee hours of the night.


I'm getting close on this.... right now, with your two cards I would
move my existing mobo the Norco case and see how it goes... leaving me
the option of building up a new mobo/CPU if needed....

But, reading between the lines of various discussions, I am coming
around to thinking the current Core-2 *should* work...given the lack of
performance needs.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per (PeteCresswell):
with your two cards I would
move my existing mobo the Norco case and see how it goes.

Oops.... "PCI Express x4" .... and my mobo only has 2 "PCIEX1" slots and
one "PCIEX16" slot.... so I guess I'm back to shopping a socket 1155
mobo and an Intel Core i7-2600K CPU.

Any mobo recommendations?
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 11:35:51 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per (PeteCresswell):
Per Char Jackson:
Currently, just 15 drives in the pool because that's how many fit
comfortably inside the Norco RPC-450b case,

Are you using SAS or SATA controller cards in the PC?

OK... it's starting to soak in: the Norco product is actually a computer
case and not just a drive enclosure.... so number of cables becomes moot
since they are all within the case.

Exactly. When looking at server cases, pay attention to the vertical
size, 1U to 4U, as well. That refers to how much space in a standard
equipment rack the case would occupy. The Norco RPC-450b is a 4U case.

If you're shopping on price, Rosewill makes a line of server cases that
might be worth looking at. Norco is cheaper than most, but Rosewill is
even less expensive, last time I looked.

As you said, these are just giant PC cases. You slap in every part that
you'd put into a regular PC: mobo, power supply, CPU, memory, drives,
etc. These are not drive enclosures.

--

Char Jackson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:20:44 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per (PeteCresswell):
with your two cards I would
move my existing mobo the Norco case and see how it goes.

Oops.... "PCI Express x4" .... and my mobo only has 2 "PCIEX1" slots and
one "PCIEX16" slot.... so I guess I'm back to shopping a socket 1155
mobo and an Intel Core i7-2600K CPU.

Any mobo recommendations?

If that big honking card needs an x4 slot, the x16 slot will work. You
can always use a slot with more lanes.

--

Char Jackson

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 16:13:01 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
I'm primarily using two of these cards:

SuperMicro AOC-SASLP-MV8
https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-Ex.../dp/B002KGLDXU

Obviously not compatibility issues for you....

Given that, it would seem that two of those at $113 ($226 total) would
do the same job as one of these at $375:
https://www.amazon.com/16-PORT-Int-6.../dp/B003UNP05O

Aside from the higher-end slot it needs, what am I missing?

I don't know offhand how many PCIE lanes my cards need, but I run them
in PCIE x16 slots since that's what I have available on this mobo. The
other slots are PCIEx1 (two of them) and old school PCI (also two).

Throughput would be my first guess - but for a backup server, throughput
would seem close to moot since the file transfers are running through
the wee hours of the night.

One guy mentioned 30-55 Mbps in his Amazon review, so it's not
blindingly fast but you have all night.

I'm getting close on this.... right now, with your two cards I would
move my existing mobo the Norco case and see how it goes... leaving me
the option of building up a new mobo/CPU if needed....

But, reading between the lines of various discussions, I am coming
around to thinking the current Core-2 *should* work...given the lack of
performance needs.

My aging CPU runs in the neighborhood of 20-30%, typically. I'm of the
opinion that file serving is a low impact activity.

--

Char Jackson

Per Char Jackson:
Any mobo recommendations?

If that big honking card needs an x4 slot, the x16 slot will work. You
can always use a slot with more lanes.

Just pulled the trigger on the big honker and 4 cables.

I note that there is another Norco case that costs about the same as the
4216, yet supports 20 drives:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...k_ql_qh_dp_hza

Gonna obsess over that for awhile until the card/cables arrive and I can
play around a little...... and then make a choice between the two cases.
Given that the 4216's 5.25" drive bays are moot to me.....
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 18:04:15 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
Any mobo recommendations?

If that big honking card needs an x4 slot, the x16 slot will work. You
can always use a slot with more lanes.

Just pulled the trigger on the big honker and 4 cables.

I note that there is another Norco case that costs about the same as the
4216, yet supports 20 drives:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...k_ql_qh_dp_hza

For me, the 4220 is nicer than the 4020 because the 4220 has SAS
connectors on its backplane instead of SATA connectors for much less
cable clutter, and the 4220 comes with three 120mm fans while the 4020
comes with four 80mm fans (and everyone with the 4020 gripes about
having to pay to upgrade to the 3x120mm fan option). Plus, I think the
4220 is a bit cheaper at $329. I haven't checked the Amazon price.

Note that the 4220 comes in two flavors: the backplane can have either
SAS connectors or SATA connectors, so you'd want to be careful and get
the one you want. Since you already ordered breakout cables, perhaps
you'd lean toward the SATA option.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811219033

As long as you're still looking, the 4224 is pretty nice, too. The 42xx
series can be fitted with a slim DVD drive and up to two SSDs so you
don't have to waste a 3.5" bay on the OS unless you want to.

--

Char Jackson

Per Char Jackson:

For me, the 4220 is nicer than the 4020 because the 4220 has SAS
connectors on its backplane instead of SATA connectors for much less
cable clutter, and the 4220 comes with three 120mm fans while the 4020
comes with four 80mm fans (and everyone with the 4020 gripes about
having to pay to upgrade to the 3x120mm fan option). Plus, I think the
4220 is a bit cheaper at $329. I haven't checked the Amazon price.

Note that the 4220 comes in two flavors: the backplane can have either
SAS connectors or SATA connectors, so you'd want to be careful and get
the one you want. Since you already ordered breakout cables, perhaps
you'd lean toward the SATA option.

You lost me on the backplane.

I thought these things were just cases and each drive's male SATA
connector connected to a SAS cable's female connector and the other end
of the SAS cable connected to the big honker card.

The Amazon page at
https://www.amazon.com/NORCO-20-Bays.../dp/B00BQY39SO
is uncharacteristically short on photos and I am not seeing any
backplane options.

??
--
Pete Cresswell

On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:02:23 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:

For me, the 4220 is nicer than the 4020 because the 4220 has SAS
connectors on its backplane instead of SATA connectors for much less
cable clutter, and the 4220 comes with three 120mm fans while the 4020
comes with four 80mm fans (and everyone with the 4020 gripes about
having to pay to upgrade to the 3x120mm fan option). Plus, I think the
4220 is a bit cheaper at $329. I haven't checked the Amazon price.

Note that the 4220 comes in two flavors: the backplane can have either
SAS connectors or SATA connectors, so you'd want to be careful and get
the one you want. Since you already ordered breakout cables, perhaps
you'd lean toward the SATA option.

You lost me on the backplane.

I thought these things were just cases and each drive's male SATA
connector connected to a SAS cable's female connector and the other end
of the SAS cable connected to the big honker card.

The Amazon page at
https://www.amazon.com/NORCO-20-Bays.../dp/B00BQY39SO
is uncharacteristically short on photos and I am not seeing any
backplane options.

??

This is regarding the Norco cases that have hot swap drive bays...

On those cases, as each drive slides into its bay, the drive's power and
data connectors slide onto a pair of mating connectors that are mounted
to a backplane. On the other side of that backplane, you'll see either
individual SATA connectors or a smaller number of SAS connectors. You'll
connect your controller card to the backplane, thus preserving the hot
swap capability. You'll also connect your power cables to the backplane.

You can choose to remove the backplane and run your drive cables
directly from the controller to each drive, but then you can't just yank
out a drive when you want to. It's a convenience thing.

With cases that don't have this hot swap capability, you have no choice
but to run your cables from the controller card to each drive.

Hope that helps.

--

Char Jackson

Per Char Jackson:
On those cases, as each drive slides into its bay, the drive's power and
data connectors slide onto a pair of mating connectors that are mounted
to a backplane. On the other side of that backplane, you'll see either
individual SATA connectors or a smaller number of SAS connectors. You'll
connect your controller card to the backplane, thus preserving the hot
swap capability. You'll also connect your power cables to the backplane.

You can choose to remove the backplane and run your drive cables
directly from the controller to each drive, but then you can't just yank
out a drive when you want to. It's a convenience thing.

With cases that don't have this hot swap capability, you have no choice
but to run your cables from the controller card to each drive.

I think I've got it.

If Norco touts "Hot Swappable" for a case, then it has a backplane....
period....ipso facto...quid sum pro...

My job then is do decide whether I want a backplane that presents
individual SATA headers or one that aggregates every four drives into a
single SAS header.... cutting the number of internal cables between
backplane and controller card from 16 (actually 4 SAS/SATA cables each
of which branches to 4 SATA connectors) to 4 SAS cables.
--
Pete Cresswell

On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 17:41:31 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Char Jackson:
On those cases, as each drive slides into its bay, the drive's power and
data connectors slide onto a pair of mating connectors that are mounted
to a backplane. On the other side of that backplane, you'll see either
individual SATA connectors or a smaller number of SAS connectors. You'll
connect your controller card to the backplane, thus preserving the hot
swap capability. You'll also connect your power cables to the backplane.

You can choose to remove the backplane and run your drive cables
directly from the controller to each drive, but then you can't just yank
out a drive when you want to. It's a convenience thing.

With cases that don't have this hot swap capability, you have no choice
but to run your cables from the controller card to each drive.

I think I've got it.

If Norco touts "Hot Swappable" for a case, then it has a backplane....
period....ipso facto...quid sum pro...

My job then is do decide whether I want a backplane that presents
individual SATA headers or one that aggregates every four drives into a
single SAS header.... cutting the number of internal cables between
backplane and controller card from 16 (actually 4 SAS/SATA cables each
of which branches to 4 SATA connectors) to 4 SAS cables.

By George, you've got it!

--

Char Jackson