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Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forcesLinux, Windows redesign



 
 
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  #31  
Old January 5th 18, 03:24 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 09:15, DaveFroble wrote:
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:


Becuse the designers, for performance reasons, has mapped kernel memory
into the user process address space and relies on the OS to check
protection before any kernel memory (or code) is accessed.

The issue with the current issues is that the hardware (the CPU) does
these accesses in hardware "under the hood" without control by the OS.

If you map your kernel memory in another way that uses the hardware
protection facilities, you are (as I understand) safe, at the cost
of worse performance to switch between user and kernel mode.



As I wrote, someone dropped the ball on this one.

Speculative execution is part of the HW, not software.Â* It appears the
HW doesn't follow it's own rules.Â* Or, perhaps I don't actually
understand the problem?


At least as well as I do. These are very complex mechanisms and
complexity is usually where you're most likely to get problems.

In this case the h/w implementation didn't reflect the design goal.

This means intel had very poor design review and abysmal testing of
security features.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
Ads
  #32  
Old January 5th 18, 03:29 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 09:06, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
On 01/05/2018 08:50 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2018-01-04 15:43, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to
30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model.

This is ugly.Â* Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers.Â* Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


And once all the spanners are tossed into the works, which will slow
things down, what happens when new CPUs without the issues are
available?Â* Will computers forever be artificially slowed down?

A whole bunch of someones has seriously dropped the ball on this.
Protected memory should be just that, protected, with no way to avoid
the protection.


I presume it's an implementation flaw, not a principle-of-design flaw.
So once addressed, it should result in both proper memory protection
and increased performance in future cores.Â* Alas (per the article)
this can't be addressed with a microcode patch.


Sounds more like a "principle-of-design" flaw to me.Â* Hard to
believe all those different companies all made the same mistake
building on a sound design.


Call as you like I'll stick to my version. "All"? What? 2?

They have similar design goals so having similar attacks on the problem
aren't a surprise. Indeed in their communities ideas fly around
somewhat freely before implementation puts them under proprietary
"protection".

The failure (I'm speculating) is in design implementation and failure to
test the intent of the security in an OS environment.

Further speculation: the CPU h/w designers are a couple steps away from
OS designers and their understanding of OS concerns doesn't see clearly
to how to design the security tests.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
  #33  
Old January 5th 18, 04:09 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:32:52 +1300, Your Name
wrote:

On 2018-01-04 15:28:17 +0000, chrisv said:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five
to 30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the
processor model.


This is ugly. Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers. Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


It aint just Intel either. The three different CPU issues affect chips
from Intel, AMD, and ARM (no mention anywhere of PowerPC or Apple's own
A-series), and affect virtually all devices sold in the last 15 years -
computers, tablets, smartphones, etc.!

That's gonna be one heck of a clean up bill! :-(


The _only_ processors which will suffer a performance slowdown as a
result of these problems are Intel ones. Spectre affects all chips and
the fix does not affect performance. Meltdown affects processors built
since 1995 by *Intel* and the fix will slow them down up to around
65%.

Apple has already partially fixed the problems in the MacOS X High
Sierra update 10.13.2 (with no noticeable performance slow-down) and
further fixes due in the up-coming 10.13.3 update currently in beta
testing.

Users of old versions of OS X may well be stuck though and not get any update.


Mac OS is already a slow piece of poop that caters to the dumbest
elements of society so I doubt that any of the retards using it would
notice a slowdown of their slow as molasses operating system no matter
how significant it was.
  #34  
Old January 5th 18, 04:11 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 03:36:34 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst. Even Reid Bryson, the scientist who was the father of
modern climate science, stated that it is "a bunch of hooey."

As I said, I absolutely refuse to reduce my own carbon emissions and
in fact continue to see ways to increase them. (Do you dumbass hippies
really believe that your stoopid windmills are solar panels are capable
of keeping people warm and alive in the deep freeze that so much of the
U.S. is currently experiencing?)


I _refuse_ to buy an electic car which has horrible range, little
storage and looks absolutely awful in the hope that mining lithium to
power them somehow causes less pollution than driving a regular,
gas-burning car.

I want power in my vehicle as well as the ability to drive as far as I
want to and that is something electric cars will never allow for.
  #35  
Old January 5th 18, 04:13 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 10:04:06 +0100, Peter Köhlmann
wrote:

Roger Blake wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst.


Idiot


Another thought-provoking and irrefutable post by Mainz's greatest
export, Peter the Klöwn.
  #36  
Old January 5th 18, 04:20 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 12:33:59 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm
wrote:

Den 2018-01-05 kl. 04:36, skrev Roger Blake:
On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.


No, it is a natural part of the atmosphare, but it is a balance.
It has to be in the right proportions. To much (and in particual
if we continue to burn fosile fuels that ads carbone that was
bound millions of years ago) and the climate will be hurt.


You can't _hurt_ climate. The Earth always balances itself out and
there are thousands of years of data showing this. Some periods are
cold; some periods are warm. In the end, there is a balance regardless
of what its living creatures do.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst. Even Reid Bryson, the scientist who was the father of
modern climate science, stated that it is "a bunch of hooey."


I could probably name the scientist that has the opposite view, but
the space in one posting would not be enough.

And why pick one that has been dead for 10 years? The views on global
warming has changed over the years and a lot has happend the last decade.


Please demonstrate how.

As I said, I absolutely refuse to reduce my own carbon emissions and
in fact continue to see ways to increase them.


OK. fine. You'll be sorry and your children will be hurt. But then, if
you could reduce your C02 emission, what would be the issue?


Reducing CO2 emissions should be voluntary in the same way that
companies having a $15 minimum wage should be voluntary. In the United
States, some companies did so and as a result show that they can
afford to pay people that well without there being any kind of
consequences. In Ontario, for instance, the $15 minimum wage was
forced and companies now have to cut back somehow to afford to pay
people that well. The liberal approach to CO2 emissions involves
forcing companies and the people to make significant sacrifices and
the end result is that it will do damage to the economy and the
standard of life in the _hope_ that we will somehow be able to slow
the evitable in a very insignificant way at a time when none of us
will still be alive. The best governments _should_ hope for is to
raise awareness about the potential problem and encourage people to
make whatever changes they can which is not at all what they've been
doing with schemes like the Paris Climate Accord.

(Do you dumbass hippies
really believe that your stoopid windmills are solar panels are capable
of keeping people warm and alive in the deep freeze that so much of the
U.S. is currently experiencing?)


That weather phenomenon is probably also caused by the disturbed climate
caused by the CO2 emissions. So in the case of the current US weather
issues, you could say that it is, in a way, self-inflicted.

Anyway, you could probably start with more efficient cars, shutting down
all AC equipment and so on. This cold is just a temporarily storm and
has little to do with the overall climate issues. One can not use the
amount of snow on the back garden to judge about the climate at large.


Just watch this:

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=NjlC02NsIt0
  #37  
Old January 5th 18, 04:29 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 10:09, Doomsdrzej wrote:

The _only_ processors which will suffer a performance slowdown as a
result of these problems are Intel ones. Spectre affects all chips and
the fix does not affect performance. Meltdown affects processors built
since 1995 by *Intel* and the fix will slow them down up to around
65%.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394
0 slowdown for the Meltdown fix.

2.5% slowdown for the Spectre fix in one of three benchmarks. Belying
what you say above. So your "credentials" are decaying quick.

[3rd party benchmarks]

Not clear if the fix will be "improved" in 10.13.3 (the next update) and
whether that will impact CPU.

Mac OS is already a slow piece of poop that caters to the dumbest
elements of society so I doubt that any of the retards using it would
notice a slowdown of their slow as molasses operating system no matter
how significant it was.


That's just bad math. If something is slow, then a percentage slowdown
is much more noticeable than the same percentage slowdown on a faster
machine.

What in particular is slower about Mac OS?

BTW, Mac OS is generally used by people with higher educational
achievement as well as higher income brackets. But then ...

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
  #38  
Old January 5th 18, 04:32 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
chrisv
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Posts: 649
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

Doomsdrzej wrote:

The Earth always balances itself out and
there are thousands of years of data showing this. Some periods are
cold; some periods are warm. In the end, there is a balance regardless
of what its living creatures do.


What the right-wing propagandists always "forget" is that, while there
are compensating mechanisms that tend to bring the climate back to an
equilibrium, the forces are gentle, and they work on the time-scale of
millennia. They cannot cope with a violent change in conditions
occurring over a short period of time, as in the last 100 years.

--
"Tell us again how Windows 95 is not DOS-based, Peter." - "Slimer",
AKA "Doomsdrzej", putting his ignorance on display
  #39  
Old January 5th 18, 04:37 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 10:32, chrisv wrote:
What the right-wing propagandists always "forget" is that, while there
are compensating mechanisms that tend to bring the climate back to an
equilibrium, the forces are gentle, and they work on the time-scale of
millennia. They cannot cope with a violent change in conditions
occurring over a short period of time, as in the last 100 years.


+10

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
  #40  
Old January 5th 18, 04:43 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 10:13, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 10:04:06 +0100, Peter Köhlmann
wrote:

Roger Blake wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.

His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst.


Idiot


Another thought-provoking and irrefutable post by Mainz's greatest
export, Peter the Klöwn.


A funny thing about your sort is you believe that putting down others
makes your point valid and that resonates in your little echo chambers
as some sort of truth. While there is wisdom in crowds, that only works
when everyone's decision is independent. You have the independence of a
particularly dull sheep. Why alpha-idiots like Twump make little honest
effort to enlist you - not worth the expense - you come near free.

Meanwhile scientists worldwide are investigating climate change and with
each passing year narrowing the doubt about current anthropogenic
climate change to the statistical exclusion of all other causes.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
  #41  
Old January 5th 18, 05:07 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 10:51, Wolf K wrote:

So, in order to reduce the performance hit, would it make sense to
redesign the CPU with a larger on-board cache to store both kernel and
user memory? Or, what am I missing in the protected memory concept?


Ignoring that the only fix will be in future (or currently in
pre-production) CPU's, the fix could be done with the same sized caches
but correctly implemented. It could be the "correct fix" is itself less
efficient overall than the goal (execution). It could be that such a
fix would reduce the amount of cache available to Kernel/User space and
thus have an impact too.

New CPU's can have the luxury of more cache in any case and so can add
even more to help with the issue.

Wow. What a long winded way to say: "who knows?".


Anyhow, I think most users will see no performance hit. I mean, how many
people are rendering CGI on their laptops? Etc.

I'm more worried about server farms used by big data, banks, ISPs etc.
These already show performance hits tied to time-of-day, as user access
(ie demand) varies. Even a few % slowdown in overall throughput will be
noticeable at peak demand times.


That depends on the server farms. Well designed they scale up cheaply
(upscale effort) but expensively (hardware + energy). There is cost.

AWS style platforms can upscale dynamically according to load (and the
contract with the service client). Of course the service client will be
sad to see his costs with the platform go up and have to find a way to
get more revenue.

All that said, the 5 - 30% load increase seems to be speculative /
theoretical. And maybe you're right that it will mostly affect people
using their computers to the hilt a lot of the time and not most
"casual" users. Alas, I do render videos often but can't say my Mac
(OS 10.13.2) has seen any impact (nor can I say it hasn't - nothing
noticable IOW).

Maybe under 10.13.3 when Apple are rumoured to "complete" their defense
against Meltdown and/or Spectre we'll perceive the hit.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?â€
..Jim Quinn
  #42  
Old January 5th 18, 05:13 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Peter Köhlmann[_3_]
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Posts: 235
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

Doomsdrzej wrote:

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 11:32:52 +1300, Your Name
wrote:

On 2018-01-04 15:28:17 +0000, chrisv said:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five
to 30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the
processor model.

This is ugly. Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers. Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


It aint just Intel either. The three different CPU issues affect chips
from Intel, AMD, and ARM (no mention anywhere of PowerPC or Apple's own
A-series), and affect virtually all devices sold in the last 15 years -
computers, tablets, smartphones, etc.!

That's gonna be one heck of a clean up bill! :-(


The _only_ processors which will suffer a performance slowdown as a
result of these problems are Intel ones. Spectre affects all chips and
the fix does not affect performance. Meltdown affects processors built
since 1995 by *Intel* and the fix will slow them down up to around
65%.


Bull****. I tested my system with Geekbench4 before and after the patch.
The single-test was slowed by around 1%, the multi-test by somewhat less
than 2%. This does not involve lots of I/O, but it indicates that processor
speed is very little affected. The measured values are barely higher than
differences due to background tasks in the single test. Both values are not
at all "being able to be felt" by the user.
Notice that my machine constantly runs 3 diffferent databases too
  #43  
Old January 5th 18, 07:33 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 10:29:31 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

BTW, Mac OS is generally used by people with higher educational
achievement as well as higher income brackets. But then ...


Pity the only available vbox for macOS has no sound.
  #44  
Old January 5th 18, 07:44 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 10:29:31 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2018-01-05 10:09, Doomsdrzej wrote:

The _only_ processors which will suffer a performance slowdown as a
result of these problems are Intel ones. Spectre affects all chips and
the fix does not affect performance. Meltdown affects processors built
since 1995 by *Intel* and the fix will slow them down up to around
65%.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394
0 slowdown for the Meltdown fix.

2.5% slowdown for the Spectre fix in one of three benchmarks. Belying
what you say above. So your "credentials" are decaying quick.

[3rd party benchmarks]

Not clear if the fix will be "improved" in 10.13.3 (the next update) and
whether that will impact CPU.


Since I don't want to just take Apple's word for it or that of one of
its zealots, I prefer to look at actual benchmarks. I don't believe
Windows zealots either and want raw data. Here is Phoronix, a Linux
site, showing the performance impact of the patch:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux-415-x86pti&num=2

Now, you can be classy and apologize or continue being a dick. I
imagine that you'll choose the latter.

Mac OS is already a slow piece of poop that caters to the dumbest
elements of society so I doubt that any of the retards using it would
notice a slowdown of their slow as molasses operating system no matter
how significant it was.


That's just bad math. If something is slow, then a percentage slowdown
is much more noticeable than the same percentage slowdown on a faster
machine.

What in particular is slower about Mac OS?


Filesystem, application load time, game performance, OpenGL in
general, etc.. Here's a link on game performance from 2015. There is
no reason to believe that things are any better today.

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=hRfqNuyyPvQ

BTW, Mac OS is generally used by people with higher educational
achievement as well as higher income brackets. But then ...


What an irrelevant thing to mention. Be quiet.
  #45  
Old January 5th 18, 07:46 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Doomsdrzej[_2_]
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Posts: 262
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 10:43:48 -0500, Alan Browne
wrote:

On 2018-01-05 10:13, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 10:04:06 +0100, Peter Köhlmann
wrote:

Roger Blake wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.

His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst.

Idiot


Another thought-provoking and irrefutable post by Mainz's greatest
export, Peter the Klöwn.


A funny thing about your sort is you believe that putting down others
makes your point valid and that resonates in your little echo chambers
as some sort of truth.


Says the hypocrite who just defended someone calling another poster an
"idiot."

While there is wisdom in crowds...


.... there is none in your posts.

*plonk*
 




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