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fading colour photographic images



 
 
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  #16  
Old October 31st 18, 02:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default fading colour photographic images

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul
writes:
Paul wrote:

[]
This is an example of a colorizer I played with.
https://s26.postimg.org/eg27sn7sp/autocolorize_021.jpg
One weird part, is how the damn thing "can't paint within the lines"
:-)


That looks like fun to play with! (The "within the lines" bit just
reflects how our eyes work; we have much greater luminance than
chrominance resolution - that's how the various colour TV systems [NTSC,
SECAM, and PAL] managed to squeeze a quart into a pint pot/remain
compatible. Manual colorisers have known it for ages: my mum used to
colour old engraving prints as a hobby.)

The neat part, is it picks colors without human input.
It knows the trees are green. And it picked a "parrot
color scheme" for the parrot all on its own.


That _is_ clever of it.

I agree that some day, it'll offer possibilities.
Discerning photographic tastes need not apply. Nobody
from the photography group would be impressed.
Paul


Sorry, the URL should be:

https://s26.postimg.cc/eg27sn7sp/autocolorize_021.jpg

Paul


As I say, fun - though not what I was after: I wasn't after colorisation
of completely monochrome images; more something that could be applied
to, say, very faded colour prints (look around your room, or your
parents' or grandparents' - there are probably some there, such as
embarrassing ones of you when you were little!). These tend _towards_
monochrome, but if you look carefully, you can see there _is_ colour -
but some of the colours fade more than others. I was hoping for
something that could reverse that process: I'm not sure how. Obviously
it can _probably_ be done manually by playing with the brightness,
contrast, and gamma of the three colours separately manually; I'd just
hoped that maybe someone would have come up with a slider control that
took account of how the _majority_ of such material degrades, to give a
slider to bring it back, without having to manually do all the separate
tweaking that would be required. It _may_ not be possible, but I think
it is - or will be in the near future.


If you shot reference photos of color reference plates, in the year the
pictures were taken, it might give you enough color transform
information to apply an automatic correction.

I have a target that came with my scanner, that performs the
same function as the target they used here. It's amazing how
much difference there is in these scans. Even the scanning
process could be ruining your photography...

https://www.imaging-resource.com/SCAN/CS9000/9000F.HTM

Paul
Ads
  #17  
Old October 31st 18, 02:55 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default fading colour photographic images

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote


| So the "hue" control is mainly for newbies (-:?

It's different functions. You can adjust "gamma",
or color intensity, per channel or linked. Hue adjusts
just that -- hue. For instance, if you take a B/W
and want to make it look old-fashioned, you could
do a colorfill of amber at 10% opacity. What if you
don't like the *hue*? You can then adjust that to be
more yellow, red, etc. It can be useful to fix a
situation like a sunset photo that looks bluish. Or
you could make the photo look more bluish to accent
the sunset feeling. Or you could use it to correct a
photo of a person's face that came out too red.
And it's often useful with graphic arts.
People often use "shade" to mean hue, which
confuses things. Hue just does what it says --
changing the overall color of an image. you'd
rarely want much of that, but sometimes a tiny
bit is nice. Another example: An African "safari"
landscape with lots of tans and yellows, that looks
slightly greenish, could be tipped slightly toward
orange to make it look richer.

With your photos you're talking about RGB being
out of balance, but there could be cases where
hue adjustment would also help.

No tool is for beginners, unless you count all the
gimmicky filters that do things like make a photo
look like a watercolor or a craypas drawing. And
all tools can be used "like a beginner". It's common
for people to oversaturate because they think it
makes an image look richer. Sometimes a tiny bit
of that will help. Usually it's overdone.

But it quickly becomes a philosophical issue
because with digital it's hard to say what the
"real" picture is. Where does touch-up stop
and creation start? You want to restore your
photos to what you think they should look like,
but you might also crop, remove objects, add
rosy cheeks... and if you want to spend more
money you can get "fashion model" filters to give
people better bone structure, give women better
curves, etc. (Look at any women's magazine
cover these days. The photos are only vague,
airbrush-style facsimiles of the models. They not
only hide skin pores these days. They can also
contort facial features.)
I got one of those programs with PSP16. I never
tried it. As I recall it required me to "register" and
I didn't really have any curiosity about it, anyway.
It's called FaceFilter. From the blurb:
""Use the muscle-based facial morphing system
to create a desired expression....comprehensive
multi-layer makeup system..."

So who's to say that hueing your photo to
red is not high art? If you can sucker the art
fashionistas at New York's MoMA to put it up
on the wall then it is. Officially. (And what other
standard is there with modern art, after all?


  #18  
Old October 31st 18, 03:01 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default fading colour photographic images

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| Indeed. But I'd hoped that maybe something might have been developed
| that had involved knowledge of how the _majority_ of such fading occurs.

Yes. I was thinking about that. I don't see
how software could figure it out unless there
were telltale colors left behind. There's no way
to tell what color something used to be.

| Awhile back there were some plugins being
| given away. I think they were called Nik -
| DxO Optics Pro. They gave away an older version.
|
| (I presume, since you're calling them plugins, that they go with some
| specific software, probably PhotoShop.)

Yes. I got them for PSP16, which uses the same
kind of plugins.

| Being the pedant (?) that I am, assuming I ever get round to doing the
| scanning at all, I'll probably keep both the raw scans _and_ any tweaked
| versions, so any future person can have their own go.

Which might be you. No sense deleting the image
with the most data.


  #19  
Old October 31st 18, 03:36 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default fading colour photographic images

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
separately manually; I'd just hoped that maybe someone would have
come up with a slider control that took account of how the _majority_
of such material degrades, to give a slider to bring it back, without
having to manually do all the separate tweaking that would be
required. It _may_ not be possible, but I think it is - or will be in
the near future.


If you shot reference photos of color reference plates, in the year the
pictures were taken, it might give you enough color transform
information to apply an automatic correction.


I imagine the various film companies have done a lot of that - shot
colour reference plates, and exposed prints to varying amounts of
daylight. They probably just aren't too keen to give away the data (-:!
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Back then, many radio sets were still in black and white. - Eddie Mair, radio
presenter, on "PM" programme reaching 40; in Radio Times, 3-9 April 2010
  #20  
Old October 31st 18, 03:42 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default fading colour photographic images

In message , Mayayana
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| Indeed. But I'd hoped that maybe something might have been developed
| that had involved knowledge of how the _majority_ of such fading occurs.

Yes. I was thinking about that. I don't see
how software could figure it out unless there
were telltale colors left behind. There's no way
to tell what color something used to be.


That's why I envisaged a slider control. Of course, there's no way you
could know when you'd got to the correct point on the slider, but if it
(reverse) mimicked how the _majority_ of colour prints have faded, then
I'd hope maybe it could do a fair job with say 60% of prints. After all,
we _do_ have some idea what colour (etc.) skintones, grass, sky etcetera
are/were. Yes, there are going to be a _host_ of exceptions (grass was
mostly brown in UK in 1976 for example!), but I would have hoped that
something could be done in most cases.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Back then, many radio sets were still in black and white. - Eddie Mair, radio
presenter, on "PM" programme reaching 40; in Radio Times, 3-9 April 2010
  #21  
Old October 31st 18, 05:37 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default fading colour photographic images

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Mayayana
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| Indeed. But I'd hoped that maybe something might have been developed
| that had involved knowledge of how the _majority_ of such fading
occurs.

Yes. I was thinking about that. I don't see
how software could figure it out unless there
were telltale colors left behind. There's no way
to tell what color something used to be.


That's why I envisaged a slider control. Of course, there's no way you
could know when you'd got to the correct point on the slider, but if it
(reverse) mimicked how the _majority_ of colour prints have faded, then
I'd hope maybe it could do a fair job with say 60% of prints. After all,
we _do_ have some idea what colour (etc.) skintones, grass, sky etcetera
are/were. Yes, there are going to be a _host_ of exceptions (grass was
mostly brown in UK in 1976 for example!), but I would have hoped that
something could be done in most cases.
[]


You could combine the trial from he

http://www.asf.com/products/plugins/.../pluginROCPRO/

ADOBE PHOTOSHOP 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 7.0, CS, CS2 or CS3

with the version of CS2 Photoshop floating about

PhSp_CS2_English.exe which is stored on disk here as...

PhSp_CS2_English__photoshop_CS2_1045-1412-5685-1654-6343-1431.exe

as your editor. And see whether the output is acceptable or not.

Paul
  #22  
Old October 31st 18, 05:43 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default fading colour photographic images

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
That's why I envisaged a slider control. Of course, there's no way
you could know when you'd got to the correct point on the slider, but
if it (reverse) mimicked how the _majority_ of colour prints have
faded, then I'd hope maybe it could do a fair job with say 60% of
prints. After all, we _do_ have some idea what colour (etc.)
skintones, grass, sky etcetera are/were. Yes, there are going to be a
_host_ of exceptions (grass was mostly brown in UK in 1976 for
example!), but I would have hoped that something could be done in most cases.
[]


You could combine the trial from he

http://www.asf.com/products/plugins/.../pluginROCPRO/

ADOBE PHOTOSHOP 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, 7.0, CS, CS2 or CS3

with the version of CS2 Photoshop floating about

PhSp_CS2_English.exe which is stored on disk here as...

PhSp_CS2_English__photoshop_CS2_1045-1412-5685-1654-6343-1431.exe

as your editor. And see whether the output is acceptable or not.

Paul

See my reply to Mayayana, who had mentioned the same link; _none_ of the
example images on that page show an original image that was faded (in
fact all but one show a _darker_ one, mostly with a blue cast). He had a
play with some of their images, and wasn't very impressed.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Not an electronic sausage!"
  #23  
Old October 31st 18, 05:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Jeff Barnett[_2_]
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Posts: 298
Default fading colour photographic images

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote on 10/30/2018 9:15 AM:
While reading the cropping thread, which has varied into general
image-manipulation software (such as IrfanView and FastStone), it has
occurred to me that there is something that is increasingly needed: a
slider for restoring faded colour photographic material. Let's say
mainly prints, as they're likely to be the commonest material that's
going to need it. (Films also.)

I'm sure IV, FS, PhotoShop, PSP, and the others _can_ all be used to
restore the degradation that colour material undergoes, but it would
require skill and knowledge. The main reason is that the various colour
dyes used in such material tend to fade *at different rates*; the end
condition being, usually, a more or less monochrome image consisting of
mostly the green dye, which is probably non-recoverable, but there can
be intermediate stages where some of the other colours are still
present, but in different levels to the green.

What I'm envisaging is a single slider control that would apply the
necessary corrections in their correct and differing proportions as the
slider is varied. (It might have to be a two-dimensional control with
the other axis being just overall brightness and/or contrast.)

I can see _lots_ of difficulties: the biggest probably being either:
different overall casts (colour, brightness, contrast) being caused by
different scanners, or: different fading characteristics due to
different chemistries involved. But I can't help feeling that _some_
common set of parameters might be usable across the _majority_ of
material: certainly, when I see old colour prints that have faded
(especially where only slightly - you could say "faded" isn't quite the
right description; initially just "colours changed"), there does seem to
be a common track the _majority_ of the material follows as it degrades.

For the different chemistries, different presets (Kodak, Kodachrome,
Agfa, Perutz ...) might be relevant (especially for movie film), but I
envisage that as being the more specialist end of the user base; I think
a large proportion of the material is likely to fall close to the "main
sequence" as astronomers would call it. (Would that be, in effect,
"Kodak and its clones"?)

What does anyone think - is it _possible_ that such a slider could
become a common control in image manipulation software, or is it just
too difficult (too many variables)?


I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.
PhotoShop offers a saturation control that either works on all color
channels simultaneously or allows you to specify correction to each
channel. (When I say color channel I mean R, G, B, C, M, and Y even if
you are in RGB mode.) In addition, you can vary the brightness of each
channel.

Some other replies have mentioned hue control. Hue control is actually a
method of selecting amount of "sensitivity" between red and green. If
you simultaneously select sensitivity between yellow and blue you are
specifying the nature of light illuminating the the original scene. When
you opt between "daylight", "overcast", etc. with your camera these are
controlling the two sensitivities mentioned above.
--
Jeff Barnett
  #24  
Old October 31st 18, 06:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default fading colour photographic images

In message , Jeff Barnett
writes:
[]
I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.


It's not as simple as that: the colours (dyes, whatever) fade at a
different rate (to each other), so just increasing saturation alone
wouldn't do it. I think it would need quite complex curves along the
track of the control. _Probably_ something like: initially just a
general darkening/contrast enhancement, but further along the slider
more gain (or offset or combination) on _two_ of the colours (with the
cut-in points not necessarily the same for those two). But that's just
my guess.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Bother," said Pooh, as he tasted the bacon in his sandwich.
  #25  
Old October 31st 18, 06:48 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 586
Default fading colour photographic images

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
Vuescan did an amazing job on faded slides when I used it. My father used
Ansco films for a while, because you could get a kit to develop them
yourself. But the slides fade to a brownish cast prettty quickly. Vuescan
handles those very well.


Vuescan can produce good results from slides, but I've never managed to get
realistic-looking results from colour negatives: they look very grainy,
especially on skies (dark on negative) and the colours look artificial - a
bit like the OTT colours you used to get on "colour plates" in books of the
1930s. However the amount of extra shadow and highlight detail that you get
is great, compared with the crushed black and white of a commercially-made
print from the same neg.

That was using a dedicated film scanner. I think the manufacturer's own
Minolta Scan Elite software gave better results than Vuescan for negs, but
still not a patch on slides.

I was amazed with the amount of detail I managed to recover from some very
over-exposed slides. I was taking some night-time photos of illuminated
buildings, with a dense blue filter to correct for tungsten lights on
daylight film. And I overestimated with some of them - probably by quite a
few stops. But the scanner managed to produce good pictures by reducing the
light intensity or the CCD gain or something. Of course, with night-time
photos like that, there isn't a single "correct" exposure - it's very
subjective.

Results of some faded and/or overexposed daylight slides that my dad took on
my parents' honeymoon (so about 55 years ago) didn't fare as well: you can
darken things but you can't put back information that is simply not there in
bleached-out highlights.

  #26  
Old October 31st 18, 07:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default fading colour photographic images

"Jeff Barnett" wrote

| I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
| thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.

That's been discussed. I suggested he try Irfan
View Image - Color Correction before proceeding,
but he's got his mind set on downloading a 1-click
magic wand.



  #27  
Old October 31st 18, 07:50 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Jeff Barnett[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default fading colour photographic images

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote on 10/30/2018 9:15 AM:
While reading the cropping thread, which has varied into general
image-manipulation software (such as IrfanView and FastStone), it has
occurred to me that there is something that is increasingly needed: a
slider for restoring faded colour photographic material. Let's say
mainly prints, as they're likely to be the commonest material that's
going to need it. (Films also.)

I'm sure IV, FS, PhotoShop, PSP, and the others _can_ all be used to
restore the degradation that colour material undergoes, but it would
require skill and knowledge. The main reason is that the various colour
dyes used in such material tend to fade *at different rates*; the end
condition being, usually, a more or less monochrome image consisting of
mostly the green dye, which is probably non-recoverable, but there can
be intermediate stages where some of the other colours are still
present, but in different levels to the green.

What I'm envisaging is a single slider control that would apply the
necessary corrections in their correct and differing proportions as the
slider is varied. (It might have to be a two-dimensional control with
the other axis being just overall brightness and/or contrast.)

I can see _lots_ of difficulties: the biggest probably being either:
different overall casts (colour, brightness, contrast) being caused by
different scanners, or: different fading characteristics due to
different chemistries involved. But I can't help feeling that _some_
common set of parameters might be usable across the _majority_ of
material: certainly, when I see old colour prints that have faded
(especially where only slightly - you could say "faded" isn't quite the
right description; initially just "colours changed"), there does seem to
be a common track the _majority_ of the material follows as it degrades.

For the different chemistries, different presets (Kodak, Kodachrome,
Agfa, Perutz ...) might be relevant (especially for movie film), but I
envisage that as being the more specialist end of the user base; I think
a large proportion of the material is likely to fall close to the "main
sequence" as astronomers would call it. (Would that be, in effect,
"Kodak and its clones"?)

What does anyone think - is it _possible_ that such a slider could
become a common control in image manipulation software, or is it just
too difficult (too many variables)?


I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.
PhotoShop offers a saturation control that either works on all color
channels simultaneously or allows you to specify correction to each
channel. (When I say color channel I mean R, G, B, C, M, and Y even if
you are in RGB mode.) In addition, you can vary the brightness of each
channel.

Some other replies have mentioned hue control. Hue control is actually a
method of selecting amount of "sensitivity" between red and green. If
you simultaneously select sensitivity between yellow and blue you are
specifying the nature of light illuminating the the original scene. When
you opt between "daylight", "overcast", etc. with your camera these are
controlling the two sensitivities mentioned above.
--
Jeff Barnett
  #28  
Old October 31st 18, 07:57 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Jeff Barnett[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 298
Default fading colour photographic images

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote on 10/31/2018 11:10 AM:
In message , Jeff Barnett
writes:
[]
I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.


It's not as simple as that: the colours (dyes, whatever) fade at a
different rate (to each other), so just increasing saturation alone
wouldn't do it. I think it would need quite complex curves along the
track of the control. _Probably_ something like: initially just a
general darkening/contrast enhancement, but further along the slider
more gain (or offset or combination) on _two_ of the colours (with the
cut-in points not necessarily the same for those two). But that's just
my guess.
[]


I know that. The part of my message that you CHOPPED OFF described the
more complete saturation controls offered by PhotoShop that handle a
good deal of what you can achieve with curves. PS also offers curve
controls on a channel by channel basis but that is much more complex
than the OP was looking for.
--
Jeff Barnett
  #29  
Old October 31st 18, 11:40 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default fading colour photographic images

In message , Mayayana
writes:
"Jeff Barnett" wrote

| I quick scanned the other replies to your msg and didn't see what I
| thought would be the obvious simple choice: increase saturation.

That's been discussed. I suggested he try Irfan
View Image - Color Correction before proceeding,


I will.

but he's got his mind set on downloading a 1-click
magic wand.

Not a magic wand, but say something that will give better - and/or
_easier_ - results on say 50-60% of faded prints than doing complex
processing manually.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. - Mahatma Gandhi
(according to the film Gandhi [1982])
  #30  
Old November 6th 18, 07:32 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default fading colour photographic images

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:04:04 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2018-10-30 11:15, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
What does anyone think - is it _possible_ that such a slider could
become a common control in image manipulation software, or is it just
too difficult (too many variables)?


It's too difficult. You need to adjust each colour channel plus
contrast, brightness, saturation, and gamma. "Hue" is sometimes offered
as a method of adjusting all colour channels at once, but in my
experience it's a kluge that rarely works

Irfanview and XnView do a nice job with automatic level/contrast
adjustments. I recommend both.


I use Irfanview, and I've foudn that each batch of film is different,
because each one is at a different stage of fading, so really one
needs to do each picture individually.

For some Irfanview's "Auto-adjust colors" works, but even for those,
some extra tweaking is often required.

--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
 




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