What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

On 10/28/2019 2:58 AM, Chris wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/27/2019 3:10 PM, Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:
What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

In a recent thread on the Windows ng, it was noted by one that their
current router worked just fine even as it was 9 years old.
o Router recommendations


Typical home routers are hopelessly anemic in terms of power, aren't they?
o So what really matters when buying a router for your home today?



I use a Bosch 1616EVS router in the table, but a DeWalt plunge router on
the bench. Soft start is a very nice feature to have. Variable speed
is good if you will use large diameter bits.

Lol

Am curious. In the US how are the two types of routers pronounced?

In the UK we pronounce them differently and so can differentiate between
them quite easily. A "root-er" is the internet one and a "r-ow-ter" is the
carpentry tool.



In the US, they're both the same--the first syllable rhymes with "cow."


--
Ken

"Necessity is the mother of invention". I discovered I don't need a hone
router. My LG K4 works better than TELUS 3100T. Using cheap bytes imported
from the USA, with mobile LTE data, I have a WiFi router that is better and
cheaper. I will return my 3100T and explain "I have been on a consumer's
strike for months". Next I will put all my CAT 5e & CAT 6 Ethernet cables
up for resale on Craigslist.

"Arlen _G_ Holder" wrote in message
...
What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

In a recent thread on the Windows ng, it was noted by one that their
current router worked just fine even as it was 9 years old.
o Router recommendations
https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/tQOZWnVo/ot-router-recommendations

Same with me, although mine is "much" newer, as the warranty expired in
2013 so it's a 2012 router!

Given what we know about power attainable in WiFi based on the Ubiquiti
thread, what REALLY matters in terms of buying a home router today?
o Curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/DuhwEEDs/curious-how-far-your-wi-fi-access-point-is-from-your-desktop-computer

Typical home routers are hopelessly anemic in terms of power, aren't they?
o So what really matters when buying a router for your home today?

I don't know, but as I am wont to do, I'll make a first pass stab:
(This is just a guess since I'm not looking for a router myself.)

1. First in import, I would think, is WiFI AP transmit power, which, let's
face it, is almost fatally anemic in all home routers, but if you can get
3dBm more than some other router, that's DOUBLE the power (and, as I
recall, 1/4 more range).

2. Second in import, I would think, isn't antenna gain (as they're all
likely 3dBI or so omni antennas, even as the marketing of them may get
"fancy" with all sorts of technologies that simple "gain" would more
directly overwhelm), nor is second in import, I would think, the supported
protocols, as AC of whatever "speed" you can get is gonna be in all of
them.

Second in import, I guess, is "speed", which, um, I don't know, I guess
it's directly related to the CPU and RAM of the computer inside the
router,
but where the lies about "claimed" speed may make that comparison
difficult.

3. Third in import, I guess, is "everything else", such as, oh, perhaps:
a. Detachable antenna (so you can put a more directional antenna if
needed)
b. USB port (CIFs SAMBA, so you can put files on the Internet, if needed)
c. (special needs may take priority, like multiple fast streaming needs)

4. I suspect the commodity checklist stuff goes here, such as
a. fast ports, usually 4, but the faster & more the better of course
b. firewall configuration (but don't they all have them?)
c. what else matters?

What do we care about in a home router to select the best for us?
--
Such a general question which for purposefully helpful but sound advice.

On 10/28/19 10:41 AM, Chris wrote:

[snip]

In the UK we pronounce them differently and so can differentiate between
them quite easily. A "root-er" is the internet one and a "r-ow-ter"
is the
carpentry tool.

Both are "r-ow-ter".Â* (along with "route" as in "this is the route we're
going to take today", although that can be speaker-specific to some
degree).

Thanks. Suspected as much, given the route pronunciation.

"Root-er" reminds me of all the wild hogs we have around here.

--
57 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one, take this as
a sign that you have neither understood thetheory nor the problem which
it was intended to solve." [Karl Popper]

On 2019-10-29 10:32 a.m., Sam E wrote:
On 10/28/19 10:41 AM, Chris wrote:

[snip]

In the UK we pronounce them differently and so can differentiate
between
them quite easily. A "root-er" is the internet one and a "r-ow-ter"
is the
carpentry tool.

Both are "r-ow-ter".Â* (along with "route" as in "this is the route we're
going to take today", although that can be speaker-specific to some
degree).

Thanks. Suspected as much, given the route pronunciation.

"Root-er" reminds me of all the wild hogs we have around here.


Also *Roto-Rooter*, the drain cleaning company. :-)

Rene

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

In a recent thread on the Windows ng, it was noted by one that their
current router worked just fine even as it was 9 years old.
o Router recommendations
https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/tQOZWnVo/ot-router-recommendations

Same with me, although mine is "much" newer, as the warranty expired in
2013 so it's a 2012 router!

Given what we know about power attainable in WiFi based on the Ubiquiti
thread, what REALLY matters in terms of buying a home router today?
o Curious how far your Wi-Fi access point is from your desktop computer
https://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com/DuhwEEDs/curious-how-far-your-wi-fi-access-point-is-from-your-desktop-computer

Typical home routers are hopelessly anemic in terms of power, aren't they?
o So what really matters when buying a router for your home today?

I don't know, but as I am wont to do, I'll make a first pass stab:
(This is just a guess since I'm not looking for a router myself.)

1. First in import, I would think, is WiFI AP transmit power, which, let's
face it, is almost fatally anemic in all home routers, but if you can get
3dBm more than some other router, that's DOUBLE the power (and, as I
recall, 1/4 more range).

2. Second in import, I would think, isn't antenna gain (as they're all
likely 3dBI or so omni antennas, even as the marketing of them may get
"fancy" with all sorts of technologies that simple "gain" would more
directly overwhelm), nor is second in import, I would think, the supported
protocols, as AC of whatever "speed" you can get is gonna be in all of
them.

Second in import, I guess, is "speed", which, um, I don't know, I guess
it's directly related to the CPU and RAM of the computer inside the router,
but where the lies about "claimed" speed may make that comparison
difficult.

3. Third in import, I guess, is "everything else", such as, oh, perhaps:
a. Detachable antenna (so you can put a more directional antenna if needed)
b. USB port (CIFs SAMBA, so you can put files on the Internet, if needed)
c. (special needs may take priority, like multiple fast streaming needs)

4. I suspect the commodity checklist stuff goes here, such as
a. fast ports, usually 4, but the faster & more the better of course
b. firewall configuration (but don't they all have them?)
c. what else matters?

What do we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I just plug an antenna into my RJ-45 wall jack and that works great.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen _G_ Holder
wrote:

What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I don't know. As soon as I find one that I like, either the
manufacturer replaces it with a piece of junk, or technology advances
beyond it's capabilities. For example, when 802.11g, I replaced some
perfectly functional 802.11b routers. When gigabit became
fashionable, I was replacing perfectly acceptable 10/100 routers. When
802.11n arrived, the older 802.11g routers became eWaste. Same with
802.11ac, 802.11ax (Wi-Fi 6), and maybe the new 24 and 60GHz bands
once they become standard on TV's and media players.

Do you perhaps see the problem? As technology advances, your "best"
router becomes instant junk. Spend as much as you want on the latest
and greatest, but there's no way you can spend your way past
obsolescence and fashion.

Another problem is what features do you really need? I don't mean the
bullet points on the data sheet because the router is *ASSUMED* to
have everything listed in working order. What I mean is the stuff
that is missing from the data sheet, such as reliability, uptime,
firmware updates, alternative firmware, performance test results
(SmallNetBuilder.com), unplanned wireless disconnects, etc. Basically,
all the stuff that can and does go wrong. My customers usually ask me
for the fastest and most feature infested router available. Then,
after they have problems, they ask me for the most reliable, highest
uptime, most supported by the manufactory, and to hell with the cost.
So, instead of a $50 junk router (Linksys EA2700), I sell them
something by Asus, Ubiquiti, Cisco, or Mikrotik.

So, what should you care about? In order of importance (most to less
most):
1. Uptime (doesn't crash or lock up).
2. Continued firmware (security) updates.
3. 2.4 and 5GHz bridging. Must operate on 2.4 and 5Ghz at same time.
4. Good performance (wi-fi throughput and range, Ethernet speed test
results (iPerf3).
5. Reliability (no bulging caps, overheating, or sensitivity to power
glitches.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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Zaghadka wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

What do we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I just plug an antenna into my RJ-45 wall jack and that works great.


I did that too, but it didn't work.

Then the trolls had the audacity to tell me that I needed *wires* from
the wallplate to somewhere else. I can't believe they are trying to
convince me _wireless_ communication needs wires.



(The above is tongue firmly in cheek. Please have a laugh )


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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen _G_ Holder
wrote:

What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I don't know. As soon as I find one that I like, either the
manufacturer replaces it with a piece of junk, or technology advances
beyond it's capabilities. For example, when 802.11g, I replaced some
perfectly functional 802.11b routers. When gigabit became
fashionable, I was replacing perfectly acceptable 10/100 routers. When
802.11n arrived, the older 802.11g routers became eWaste. Same with
802.11ac, 802.11ax (Wi-Fi 6), and maybe the new 24 and 60GHz bands
once they become standard on TV's and media players.

I'm not sold on ax, or the 24/60GHz stuff. I have enough trouble
dealing with 5 GHz penetration on too-few APs for the building (cheap
customers, of course). It's going to get so much less fun with that
stuff.

[...]
So, what should you care about? In order of importance (most to less
most):
1. Uptime (doesn't crash or lock up).
2. Continued firmware (security) updates.
3. 2.4 and 5GHz bridging. Must operate on 2.4 and 5Ghz at same time.
4. Good performance (wi-fi throughput and range, Ethernet speed test
results (iPerf3).
5. Reliability (no bulging caps, overheating, or sensitivity to power
glitches.

I'm just tacking these on, they're in no particular order:

6. General support from knowledgeable people (e.g. forums, etc.)
7. Ability to handle different load conditions
8. Looks
9. PoE (well, that's kinda optional ... but super nice)


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On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:55:48 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert
wrote:

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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen _G_ Holder
wrote:

What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I don't know. As soon as I find one that I like, either the
manufacturer replaces it with a piece of junk, or technology advances
beyond it's capabilities. For example, when 802.11g, I replaced some
perfectly functional 802.11b routers. When gigabit became
fashionable, I was replacing perfectly acceptable 10/100 routers. When
802.11n arrived, the older 802.11g routers became eWaste. Same with
802.11ac, 802.11ax (Wi-Fi 6), and maybe the new 24 and 60GHz bands
once they become standard on TV's and media players.

I'm not sold on ax, or the 24/60GHz stuff. I have enough trouble
dealing with 5 GHz penetration on too-few APs for the building (cheap
customers, of course). It's going to get so much less fun with that
stuff.

Most of the 24 and 60GHz radios are meant for point to point (PtP)
wireless bridges and WISP links. Point to point is easy as long as
you have line of sight and plenty of directional antenna gain at the
endpoints. Antenna alignment would have been difficult, but most of
the wireless bridges that I've seen have steerable phased panel feeds,
which allow for a few degrees of automatic aiming and correction.

That works well for a WISP client bridge or PtP, but doesn't do much
for a centrally located server, where the ISP's access points need to
cover a large number of customers client bridge radios. I won't go
into the possible sector antenna and phased array solutions, mostly
because I don't have any experience (yet) with them. Suffice to say
that a suitable 24 or 60GHz omnidirectional antenna is not going to
happen.

What you're complaining about is that you can't use a 24 or 60Ghz
radio in the same manner as you've become accustomed on 2.4 and 5GHz.
For now, that's not going to change. What might happen is 60 GHz
wireless video:
https://www.google.com/search?q=60+ghz+wireless+video&tbm=isch
which might become popular if the prices become tolerable.

[...]
So, what should you care about? In order of importance (most to less
most):
1. Uptime (doesn't crash or lock up).
2. Continued firmware (security) updates.
3. 2.4 and 5GHz bridging. Must operate on 2.4 and 5Ghz at same time.
4. Good performance (wi-fi throughput and range, Ethernet speed test
results (iPerf3).
5. Reliability (no bulging caps, overheating, or sensitivity to power
glitches.

I'm just tacking these on, they're in no particular order:

6. General support from knowledgeable people (e.g. forums, etc.)

If the product were any good, it wouldn't need any support.

7. Ability to handle different load conditions

I read that to mean that it can do QoS (Quality of Service) and adjust
packet priority by the application. For example, VoIP, screaming
video, gaming, file sharing, and casual web browsing all have
different usable patterns. Most can be accommodated by the ethernet
"fair share" algorithms. Those that require near real time require
QoS. However, anything that involves allocating bandwidth by user or
application will require some form of bandwidth management, which is
normally NOT found in low end home routers. The only situation where
that might be necessary is dealing with distributing bandwidth among
tenants, some of whom pay extra rent for the extra bandwidth.

8. Looks

Wireless routers used to be uniformly ugly boxes, suitable for hiding
in a closet or under a desk. Todays incantations are uniformly weird
shapes, impossible to stack, difficult to hide, and encrusted with
mostly useless protruding antennas that make it look like an inverted
tarantula:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=asus+ax11000
Of course, the uglier it looks, the better it works, so they may be on
the right track.

9. PoE (well, that's kinda optional ... but super nice)

PoE is nice, even for home use. I've been thinking of designing an
802.3af or 802.3at PoE powered cell phone charger so I can charge my
toys from any PoE enabled switch or router. It should be quite
popular after it's banned by most IT departments.

More seriously, PoE seems to work nicely for most PD (powered device)
loads. However, I've had problems with overheating PSE (power
sourcing equipment) on cheap PoE switches. Usually, it's because the
included power supply does not provide enough watts to run a fully
loaded array of PoE devices. I don't expect this kind of problem with
home wireless router, at least until everything becomes PoE powered
(phone, switch, router, remote access points, media player, cameras,
etc).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:55:48 -0000 (UTC), Dan Purgert
wrote:

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Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen _G_ Holder
wrote:

What should we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I don't know. As soon as I find one that I like, either the
manufacturer replaces it with a piece of junk, or technology advances
beyond it's capabilities. For example, when 802.11g, I replaced some
perfectly functional 802.11b routers. When gigabit became
fashionable, I was replacing perfectly acceptable 10/100 routers. When
802.11n arrived, the older 802.11g routers became eWaste. Same with
802.11ac, 802.11ax (Wi-Fi 6), and maybe the new 24 and 60GHz bands
once they become standard on TV's and media players.

I'm not sold on ax, or the 24/60GHz stuff. I have enough trouble
dealing with 5 GHz penetration on too-few APs for the building (cheap
customers, of course). It's going to get so much less fun with that
stuff.

Most of the 24 and 60GHz radios are meant for point to point (PtP)
wireless bridges and WISP links. Point to point is easy as long as

Yeah, for some reason this morning, I was thinking -ax was gonna be up
outside of 5 GHz (not the ~1-6 GHz that is actually planned for it). I
probably should've had a bit more coffee


[...]
6. General support from knowledgeable people (e.g. forums, etc.)

If the product were any good, it wouldn't need any support.

Yeah, but I'm still not convinced WiFi isn't black magic.


7. Ability to handle different load conditions

I read that to mean that it can do QoS (Quality of Service) and adjust
packet priority by the application. For example, VoIP, screaming

No, I mean like the AP can perform equally well under stress of a full
house (e.g. during family gatherings such as a birthday party) as it
does when it's just us -- or at least survive the party without needing
to be dealt with.

TBH, it's why I've moved away from the "all-in-ones" and tossed a few
UAP-AC-LITE in the house (and a UAP-AC-M outside).


8. Looks

Wireless routers used to be uniformly ugly boxes, suitable for hiding
in a closet or under a desk. Todays incantations are uniformly weird

Yup . And those locations aren't exactly conducive to good WiFi
coverage either.


9. PoE (well, that's kinda optional ... but super nice)

PoE is nice, even for home use. I've been thinking of designing an
802.3af or 802.3at PoE powered cell phone charger so I can charge my
toys from any PoE enabled switch or router. It should be quite
popular after it's banned by most IT departments.

"shutup and take my money!"

[...]
loads. However, I've had problems with overheating PSE (power
sourcing equipment) on cheap PoE switches.

Yeah, I just threw in a UBNT ES-16-150 and called it a day here.


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On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:50:19 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Dan
Purgert wrote:

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Zaghadka wrote:
On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 19:10:52 -0000 (UTC), in alt.comp.os.windows-10,
Arlen _G_ Holder wrote:

What do we care about in a home router to select the best for us?

I just plug an antenna into my RJ-45 wall jack and that works great.


I did that too, but it didn't work.

Then the trolls had the audacity to tell me that I needed *wires* from
the wallplate to somewhere else. I can't believe they are trying to
convince me _wireless_ communication needs wires.



(The above is tongue firmly in cheek. Please have a laugh )


So was my initial post. I'm laughing right along with you.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten

On 10/29/19 9:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

So, instead of a $50 junk router (Linksys EA2700), I sell them
something by Asus, Ubiquiti, Cisco, or Mikrotik.

snip

MikroTik all the way.

Cisco routers, most likely, contain Linksys guts now that Linksys is the
parent company. In fact I can prove that some of the models do. Cisco
is a joke of a company anymore. I remember when they were the BIG dog on
the block and set standards out of sheer market dominance. I wouldn't
be surprised if 90% of the big routers on the 'net, in the 90's, were Cisco.

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Johann Beretta wrote:
On 10/29/19 9:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

So, instead of a $50 junk router (Linksys EA2700), I sell them
something by Asus, Ubiquiti, Cisco, or Mikrotik.
=20
snip

MikroTik all the way.

Cisco routers, most likely, contain Linksys guts now that Linksys is the
parent company. In fact I can prove that some of the models do. Cisco

Cisco bought Linksys (not the other way around), and has since sold them
off to (IIRC) Belkin.

Although, that doesn't exactly defend the internals getting junk-ified.

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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 02:30:49 -0700, Johann Beretta
wrote:

On 10/29/19 9:44 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

So, instead of a $50 junk router (Linksys EA2700), I sell them
something by Asus, Ubiquiti, Cisco, or Mikrotik.

snip
MikroTik all the way.

No, not all the way. Maybe part way. My problem with Mirotik is the
licensing ordeal and costs. I've had some issues with costs,
transfers, replacement keys, and license failures in the distant past.
I haven't sold any Mikrotik for about 5 years, so things might have
improved.
https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:License

Cisco routers, most likely, contain Linksys guts now that Linksys is the
parent company. In fact I can prove that some of the models do. Cisco
is a joke of a company anymore. I remember when they were the BIG dog on
the block and set standards out of sheer market dominance. I wouldn't
be surprised if 90% of the big routers on the 'net, in the 90's, were Cisco.

Wrong. As Dan Purgert mentioned, Linksys is now owned by Belkin. Like
the "Linksys by Cisco" brand, Belkin has kept the Linksys brand name
independent. Last year, Foxconn bought Wemo, Belkin and Linksys:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/foxconn-subsidiary-buys-belkin-linksys-and-wemo-for-866-million/
I haven't seen any changes on the older products, but the new stuff
all looks like it was built by Foxconn.

For a clue as to how Belkin and Linksys now operate, check the dates
of the latest firmware updates on older routers. In general, Belkin
releases one or maybe two firmware updates after the product is
released, and none after it has been discontinued. This is in
contrast to early Linksys, and possibly Linksys by Cisco, issuing
security updates after a product is no longer shipping. However, I
got tired of leaving my customers home routers with known security
problems, where the usual solution was to buy a new router. So, I
spent years dabbling in Open Source firmware, which has the opposite
problem. Firmware updates were appearing far too often. Can't win.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/2/19 6:10 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
snip

Cisco bought Linksys (not the other way around), and has since sold them
off to (IIRC) Belkin.
snip

Doh! You are absolutely correct. I don't know why I thought it was the
other way around.. Nevertheless there's a lot of Cisco gear out there
that is screw-for-screw identical with Linksys hardware (switches in
particular). Of course there's a different logo on the case and the
price is a lot higher. But I'd be surprised if they weren't identical
down to the circuit pathways.