I killed a mouse today

In article , Rene Lamontagne
wrote:


Test of 3 types of new fresh cells with accurate volt meter

Maxell AAA 4 cells Avg 1.592 volts no load
Panasonic AA 4 cells Avg 1.602 volts no load
Energizer AA lithium 2 cells 1.845 volts no load

that's open circuit voltage, not nominal.

you're actually confirming what i said.


Yes open circuit, no load, average of this particular set of cells.
will probably be different for any other group of cells depending on age
and brand.

the point is that ocv is higher than nominal.

BTW I consider a single unit to be called a cell, Multiple units such as
a 6 cell 12 volt unit to be called a battery'

technically true, but in this case, it's a single cell battery.

On 2019-11-03 3:19 p.m., nospam wrote:
In article , Rene Lamontagne
wrote:

The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC.

nope. alkaline is 1.5v, nicad/nimh is 1.2v and lithium is 1.7v.

From
my reading, it was when it got down to 1.4VDC that it was considered
dead and when it posed a hazard to the device therafter due to leakage.

also wrong.

this is *Not wrong*

it is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery#Voltage
The nominal voltage of a fresh alkaline cell as established by
manufacturer standards is 1.5 V. The effective zero-load voltage
of a non discharged alkaline battery, however, varies from 1.50 to
1.65 V

nominal != open circuit

Test of 3 types of new fresh cells with accurate volt meter

Maxell AAA 4 cells Avg 1.592 volts no load
Panasonic AA 4 cells Avg 1.602 volts no load
Energizer AA lithium 2 cells 1.845 volts no load

that's open circuit voltage, not nominal.

you're actually confirming what i said.


Yes open circuit, no load, average of this particular set of cells.
will probably be different for any other group of cells depending on age
and brand.

BTW I consider a single unit to be called a cell, Multiple units such as
a 6 cell 12 volt unit to be called a battery'

Rene

In article , VanguardLH
wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC. From

....


Don't mix voltages for alkalines with rechargeables. A fresh alkaline
will have a nominal voltage of 1.5VDC.

that's more like it.

NiMH, for example, will have
1.2VDC at full charge. Chemistry dictates the voltage. That's why some
devices won't run with the wrong chemistry of battery.

these days, just about every device will work with the various
batteries that are available.

some devices have a user setting for battery type due to the different
voltages and discharge curves, for a more accurate battery indicator.

https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webh...ID-77070B10-3A
BF-4904-8FDA-558120F68F3E.html
1 Select Setup System AA Battery Type.
2 Select Alkaline, Lithium, Traditional NiMH, or Precharged NiMH.

https://cdn.navigation-professionell...s/2016/01/garm
in-oregon-settings-system-1.png

"Carlos E.R." wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC. From
my reading, it was when it got down to 1.4VDC that it was considered
dead and when it posed a hazard to the device therafter due to leakage.
However, that also assumes the batteries have a nice home in which to
get stored, like in the same environ in which you live. However,
devices that suffer extremes of temperatures (hot summer, cold winter)
should probably have their batteries replaced sooner, like a flashlight
you leave out in the garage or store in a toolbox in your car.

While I could measure every battery when checking if it is below voltage
and needs to be replaced, well, I'm already putzing with the device, so
why not just put in fresh batteries? Yeah, I'll probably replace
batteries before they've gone dead, but I also don't want to go use a
device to then find out the battery I saved some money by using it
longer is now dead and I can't use the device. I could taking out the
batteries to test their voltage and put them back in if okay, or I could
at that time put in fresh batteries and those would have a longer life
than the used ones I decided to keep reusing just because their voltage
was okay at test time.

The TV remote gets used everyday, so I'll know when its battery is
getting weak.

My point is you don't :-)

This morning I looked at one TV remote, and the voltage was below 1.1 or
1.0, and the thing was working.

I have rechargeable batteries on it, so the normal battery voltage is a
bit above 1.2; 1.2 is way below a standard battery voltage of 1.5, so if
I used normal batteries which as you say can be considered dead at 1.4,
the device continues working happily way below 1.4 and there is no
external clue.

That was my original point :-)

Don't mix voltages for alkalines with rechargeables. A fresh alkaline
will have a nominal voltage of 1.5VDC. NiMH, for example, will have
1.2VDC at full charge. Chemistry dictates the voltage. That's why some
devices won't run with the wrong chemistry of battery.

Voltage per cell
Lithium Iron Phosphate: 3.2V to 3.5V
Lithium Ion/Polymer: 3.7V to 4.2V
NiCad or NiMh: 1.2V
Lead Acid: 2.1V (liquid), 2.2V (gel)
Primary cell (carbon, alkaline) = 1.5V to 1.6V

I spoke only about alkalines. For rechargeables, and only if I had to
time to wait, I'd recharge them and then test if they were still usable.
Rechargeables have a limited number of charge cycles with capacity
waning over successive charge cycles. Plus, how you going to charge
those rechargeables in a power outage when you need that flashlight?

On 2019-11-03 4:52 p.m., nospam wrote:
In article , Rene Lamontagne
wrote:


Test of 3 types of new fresh cells with accurate volt meter

Maxell AAA 4 cells Avg 1.592 volts no load
Panasonic AA 4 cells Avg 1.602 volts no load
Energizer AA lithium 2 cells 1.845 volts no load

that's open circuit voltage, not nominal.

you're actually confirming what i said.


Yes open circuit, no load, average of this particular set of cells.
will probably be different for any other group of cells depending on age
and brand.

the point is that ocv is higher than nominal.

BTW I consider a single unit to be called a cell, Multiple units such as
a 6 cell 12 volt unit to be called a battery'

technically true, but in this case, it's a single cell battery.


Take your pick. :-)


Alkaline battery (zinc manganese oxide, carbon)
Aluminium–air battery
Atomic battery Betavoltaics
Optoelectric nuclear battery
Nuclear micro-battery

Bunsen cell
Chromic acid cell (Poggendorff cell)
Clark cell
Daniell cell
Dry cell
Earth battery
Frog battery
Galvanic cell
Grove cell
Leclanché cell
Lemon/potato battery
Lithium battery
Lithium air battery
Magnesium battery
Mercury battery
Molten salt battery
Nickel oxyhydroxide battery Oxyride battery

Organic radical battery
Paper battery
Pulvermacher's chain
Silver-oxide battery
Solid-state battery
Sugar battery
Voltaic pile Penny battery
Trough battery

Water-activated battery
Weston cell
Zinc–air battery
Zinc–carbon battery
Zinc chloride battery
Aluminium-ion battery
Carbon Battery Single Carbon Battery[1]
Dual carbon battery[2][3][4]

Flow battery Vanadium redox battery
Zinc–bromine battery
Zinc–cerium battery

Lead–acid battery Deep cycle battery
VRLA battery
AGM battery
Gel battery

Glass battery
Lithium-ion battery Lithium ion lithium cobalt oxide battery (ICR)
Lithium ion manganese oxide battery (IMR)
Lithium ion polymer battery
Lithium iron phosphate battery
Lithium–sulfur battery
Lithium–titanate battery
Thin film lithium-ion battery
Lithium ceramic battery [5] [6]

Magnesium-ion battery
Metal–air electrochemical cells Lithium air battery
Aluminium–air battery
Germanium air battery
Calcium air battery
Iron air battery
Potassium-ion battery
Silicon–air battery
Zinc–air battery
Tin air battery
Sodium-air battery
Beryllium air battery

Molten salt battery
Nickel–cadmium battery Nickel–cadmium battery vented cell type

Nickel hydrogen battery
Nickel–iron battery
Nickel metal hydride battery Low self-discharge NiMH battery

Nickel–zinc battery
Organic radical battery
Polymer-based battery
Polysulfide bromide battery
Potassium-ion battery
Rechargeable alkaline battery
Rechargeable fuel battery
Sand battery
Silicon air battery
Silver-zinc battery
Silver calcium battery
Silver-cadmium battery
Sodium-ion battery
Sodium–sulfur battery
Solid-state battery [7]
Super iron battery
UltraBattery
Zinc ion battery
Automotive battery
Backup battery
Battery (vacuum tube)
Battery pack
Battery room
Battery storage power station
Biobattery
Button cell
CMOS battery
Common battery
Commodity cell
Electric vehicle battery
Flow battery
Home energy storage
Inverter battery
Lantern battery
Nanobatteries Nanowire battery

Local battery
Polapulse battery
Photoflash battery
Reserve battery
Smart battery system
Watch battery
Water-activated battery
Wet cell
Zamboni pile


Rene

Rene Lamontagne wrote:

Weston cell

Rene

Now, that's a good one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_cell

We had one of those in chem lab, but I don't
think anyone ever measured the poor thing.
It just sat there making a steady 1.018638 volts.
There was a little card next to it, labeling it
for studenten purposes.

And then of course, you'd have to buy a $2000 DMM
to measure it :-) (For all the extra digits nobody
cares about.) The cell would feel insulted if
the DMM reads 1.019 V.

How do you know when you need a new one ?

Nobody knows. Duracell doesn't make those.

We never did discover who set ours up. It
could have been "Weston himself". Judging by
the amount of dust on it.

Paul

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC.

nope. alkaline is 1.5v, nicad/nimh is 1.2v and lithium is 1.7v.

Wrong. Me, as professional in electronics, tell you that you are wrong.

not wrong, and you even admitted as much in another post.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:
I have rechargeable batteries on it, so the normal battery voltage is a
bit above 1.2; 1.2 is way below a standard battery voltage of 1.5, so if
I used normal batteries which as you say can be considered dead at 1.4,
the device continues working happily way below 1.4 and there is no
external clue.

Obviously you are confusing the actual voltage with negligible load,
with the nominal voltage.

i'm not the least bit confused, and explained that in another post.

Nominal voltage is 1.5, yes. Actual voltage on open circuit or
negligible load is about 1.6.

the original claim was nominal voltage, not ocv.

Don't talk vehemently about what you do not know enough.

that applies to you.

On 03/11/2019 22.20, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC.

nope. alkaline is 1.5v, nicad/nimh is 1.2v and lithium is 1.7v.

Wrong. Me, as professional in electronics, tell you that you are wrong.

not wrong, and you even admitted as much in another post.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:
I have rechargeable batteries on it, so the normal battery voltage is a
bit above 1.2; 1.2 is way below a standard battery voltage of 1.5, so if
I used normal batteries which as you say can be considered dead at 1.4,
the device continues working happily way below 1.4 and there is no
external clue.

Obviously you are confusing the actual voltage with negligible load,
with the nominal voltage.

Nominal voltage is 1.5, yes. Actual voltage on open circuit or
negligible load is about 1.6.

Don't talk vehemently about what you do not know enough.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 04/11/2019 01.50, VanguardLH wrote:
"Carlos E.R." wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

The nominal voltage of a fresh (and good) AA battery is 1.65VDC. From
my reading, it was when it got down to 1.4VDC that it was considered
dead and when it posed a hazard to the device therafter due to leakage.
However, that also assumes the batteries have a nice home in which to
get stored, like in the same environ in which you live. However,
devices that suffer extremes of temperatures (hot summer, cold winter)
should probably have their batteries replaced sooner, like a flashlight
you leave out in the garage or store in a toolbox in your car.

While I could measure every battery when checking if it is below voltage
and needs to be replaced, well, I'm already putzing with the device, so
why not just put in fresh batteries? Yeah, I'll probably replace
batteries before they've gone dead, but I also don't want to go use a
device to then find out the battery I saved some money by using it
longer is now dead and I can't use the device. I could taking out the
batteries to test their voltage and put them back in if okay, or I could
at that time put in fresh batteries and those would have a longer life
than the used ones I decided to keep reusing just because their voltage
was okay at test time.

The TV remote gets used everyday, so I'll know when its battery is
getting weak.

My point is you don't :-)

This morning I looked at one TV remote, and the voltage was below 1.1 or
1.0, and the thing was working.

I have rechargeable batteries on it, so the normal battery voltage is a
bit above 1.2; 1.2 is way below a standard battery voltage of 1.5, so if
I used normal batteries which as you say can be considered dead at 1.4,
the device continues working happily way below 1.4 and there is no
external clue.

That was my original point :-)

Don't mix voltages for alkalines with rechargeables. A fresh alkaline
will have a nominal voltage of 1.5VDC. NiMH, for example, will have
1.2VDC at full charge. Chemistry dictates the voltage. That's why some
devices won't run with the wrong chemistry of battery.

I know.


Voltage per cell
Lithium Iron Phosphate: 3.2V to 3.5V
Lithium Ion/Polymer: 3.7V to 4.2V
NiCad or NiMh: 1.2V
Lead Acid: 2.1V (liquid), 2.2V (gel)
Primary cell (carbon, alkaline) = 1.5V to 1.6V

I spoke only about alkalines. For rechargeables, and only if I had to
time to wait, I'd recharge them and then test if they were still usable.
Rechargeables have a limited number of charge cycles with capacity
waning over successive charge cycles. Plus, how you going to charge
those rechargeables in a power outage when you need that flashlight?



What I'm trying to point out, is that a device (TV remote) that is
designed to work with standard and alcaline batteries with a nominal
voltage of 1.5, but work fine with rechargeable batteries that have a
nominal voltage of 1.2.

Thus that device will also work fine with a very much spent alkaline
battery that gives only 1.2, probably leaking. The device will not give
any hint that the batteries are dead and should be replaced.


About flash rechargeable torches, I routinely charge them periodically.
The strategy has to be different.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2019-11-04 3:33 a.m., Paul wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote:

Weston cell

Rene

Now, that's a good one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_cell

We had one of those in chem lab, but I don't
think anyone ever measured the poor thing.
It just sat there making a steady 1.018638 volts.
There was a little card next to it, labeling it
for studenten purposes.

And then of course, you'd have to buy a $2000 DMM
to measure it :-) (For all the extra digits nobody
cares about.) The cell would feel insulted if
the DMM reads 1.019 V.

How do you know when you need a new one ?

Nobody knows. Duracell doesn't make those.

We never did discover who set ours up. It
could have been "Weston himself". Judging by
the amount of dust on it.

Â*Â* Paul

Yep, that's what you call accurate.
Back in the early 1950s when I started home studies courses in
electronics I was required to build a VTVM with school supplied parts, O
calibrate it I had to purchace a Mercury reference cell, Ouite expebsive
at the time.
It was roughly the size of a AA cell and was 1.35 volts and *not* to be
used for any other purpose than to calibrate very high impedance VTVMs.

Looking at the list I posted I was intrigued by the Zamboni pile which I
could not equate with the famous Ice resurfacing machine of the same
name until I read up on it, which led to the Oxford bells. Now, there
you can talk about battery life with a meaning. :-)

Rene

In article , Chris
wrote:


Am constantly in fear that Logitech stop making them. I should buy a couple
of spares to last the rest of my life. I do wish they still did a wired one
that was a bit cheaper.

They do them only wireless now? :-(


Yes. Which is stupid as the mouse never moves.

nor does the keyboard, but both benefit from being wireless.

Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 01/11/2019 19.36, Chris wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 01/11/2019 03.53, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 2019-10-31 7:30 p.m., Mike Easter wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote:

...

I use a trackball (Logitech marble track plus or something similar) and
it does need periodic cleaning of fluff inside. It doesn't stop working,
just that the ball itself moves jerkily. I have been using this same
model since 1995. I just have two of them (they are not identical,
bought on different years), both working.

Same here. I'm on my second one as the original's left button microswitch
failed a couple of years ago. After nearly 20 years of use.

Am constantly in fear that Logitech stop making them. I should buy a couple
of spares to last the rest of my life. I do wish they still did a wired one
that was a bit cheaper.

They do them only wireless now? :-(


Yes. Which is stupid as the mouse never moves.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:30:38 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 04/11/2019 01.50, VanguardLH wrote:
I spoke only about alkalines. For rechargeables, and only if I had to
time to wait, I'd recharge them and then test if they were still usable.
Rechargeables have a limited number of charge cycles with capacity
waning over successive charge cycles. Plus, how you going to charge
those rechargeables in a power outage when you need that flashlight?



What I'm trying to point out, is that a device (TV remote) that is
designed to work with standard and alcaline batteries with a nominal
voltage of 1.5, but work fine with rechargeable batteries that have a
nominal voltage of 1.2.

Thus that device will also work fine with a very much spent alkaline
battery that gives only 1.2, probably leaking. The device will not give
any hint that the batteries are dead and should be replaced.

My Roku devices have the capability to measure the status of the batteries
in the remote and display that on screen as a percentage. No idea how/if
they differentiate between standard alkaline versus rechargeable, though. I
assume the rechargeables would never show 100%.

About flash rechargeable torches, I routinely charge them periodically.
The strategy has to be different.

Do they 'like' to be fully charged, or are they happier at something less
than a full charge? I try not to charge things like that too often out of
concern that a full charge is hard on it, but I could be completely wrong
about that.

On 11/4/2019 9:36 AM, Chris wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 01/11/2019 19.36, Chris wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 01/11/2019 03.53, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 2019-10-31 7:30 p.m., Mike Easter wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote:

...

I use a trackball (Logitech marble track plus or something similar) and
it does need periodic cleaning of fluff inside. It doesn't stop working,
just that the ball itself moves jerkily. I have been using this same
model since 1995. I just have two of them (they are not identical,
bought on different years), both working.

Same here. I'm on my second one as the original's left button microswitch
failed a couple of years ago. After nearly 20 years of use.

Am constantly in fear that Logitech stop making them. I should buy a couple
of spares to last the rest of my life. I do wish they still did a wired one
that was a bit cheaper.

They do them only wireless now? :-(


Yes. Which is stupid as the mouse never moves.


I know I'm in the great minority, but I don't think that wireless is a
great alternative even for a regular moveable mouse. There are two
reasons why I'm against wireless mice:

1. It adds needless trouble and a needless (small) expense for batteries.

2. It makes it much more likely that the mouse gets knocked off the desk
and smashed on the floor.

Having said that, I'll add that I use a wireless mouse. Why? Because the
mouse that I like so much only comes that way.



--
Ken

Char Jackson wrote:

Do they 'like' to be fully charged, or are they happier at something less
than a full charge? I try not to charge things like that too often out of
concern that a full charge is hard on it, but I could be completely wrong
about that.

Rechargeables are still disposable batteries. They don't last forever.
They're still chemical. They have a limited number of charge cycles
(and even a partial charge counts).

Didn't bother looking up NiCad or NiMH battery charging since I'm
guessing you're using Lithium rechargeable batteries. Yes, not charging
to full will increase the number of charging cycles for the battery.
However, that also means less up-time when inuse, and that probably
means more charging cycles.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

I used to leave my smartphone plugged in all the time when it was at
home. That meant there was numerous tiny recharge cycles. Batteries
heat up during charging. The outgassing eventually made the battery
pregnant. I would know until I went to replace the battery and took off
the armor case to notice the bulge in the backplate. I'd have to
replace the battery at about a year. Yes, with better handling the
battery would survive longer, but then I'd be heading out the door with
a partially charged battery which means less usage time during the day.
So, my choice would be to charge only partially to keep the charge count
up but have less up-time for when I wanted to use the phone, or buy
another battery in a year. To have max charge for max up-time of the
smartphone when away from home, I opted for buying another battery in a
year. The $7/year cost was well worth having more up-time for the
phone. Of course, that strategy only works for phones that have
replaceable batteries, and why I don't by phones with sealed batteries
(which can be replaced but not intended for such, and you may have to
buy a seal kit after damaging the seal to open the phone).