Windows 10?

On 07/28/2016 09:41 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 07/27/2016 06:41 PM, /less wrote:
On 07/27/2016 11:42 PM, Good Guy wrote:
On 27/07/2016 07:11, /less wrote:
On 07/27/2016 12:27 AM, Good Guy wrote:
...until you buy a new machine when 10 will come
automatically free of charge with the machine pre-loaded.


Well, so much for freedom of choice. I'd never purchase a machine (new
computer - lap or desktop) with pre-loaded software!

Why not?

For the same reasons not employing hardware e.g. router provided at
'no-cost' by some ISPs.

I like having a router that is completely my own. Not provided by my ISP
and NOT in the same box as the modem. I put DD-WRT (alternate firmware)
on it and did a lot of customizing (including local DNS) and I don't
want anyone else messing with it.


+1 - I fully agree! I'd be horrified if this options would be denied to
me by an 'democratically' elected government.

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 01:24:01 +0100, Good Guy wrote:

In UK the routers are protected and you need the correct password
to configure your own router.

Eh?

On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 13:11:31 +0700, /less wrote:

On 07/27/2016 12:27 AM, Good Guy wrote:
...until you buy a new machine when 10 will come
automatically free of charge with the machine pre-loaded.


Well, so much for freedom of choice. I'd never purchase a machine (new
computer - lap or desktop) with pre-loaded software!

My present desktop computer I bought with no OS. It came with a couple
of CDs of hardware routers.

I restored the images of each partition on my old computer, complete
with OS, from Acronis, and then up[dated the hardware drivers from the
CDs.

But it doesn't seem to be so easy with laptops, most of which come
with a preinstalled OS, complete with hardware drivers as part o0f the
installation. If I tried the same trick with a new laptop, it might
not work at all, because of hardware differences.


Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com

On 07/28/2016 03:46 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 01:24:01 +0100, Good Guy wrote:

In UK the routers are protected and you need the correct password
to configure your own router.

Eh?


You might be required to use a certain router, but why couldn't you put
your own after it?

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"To talk intelligibly about modern physics, we have to admit the
possibility of uncaused events." Taner Edis, Is Anybody Out There?

mechanic wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 01:24:01 +0100, Good Guy wrote:

In UK the routers are protected and you need the correct password
to configure your own router.

Eh?

This is standard practice, and is being mis-described.

When an ISP provides a rental modem, some people
like it that way, because it is pre-configured.
They don't want their modem/router to be adjustable.
They want an "appliance that just works".

These are modem/router products with two or three
levels of passwords. When an ISP buys a truckload of
those devices, the ISP configures them for "locked down"
operation. The user cannot change from routed to bridged.
The device presents a very simple interface. The
user cannot mess it up.

If you buy the very same router from Amazon or Newegg,
all password levels are open, and you can change the
device settings however you want.

In the case of VOIP ATA boxes, the scheme is even more
clever. An ISP, upon receiving the boxes, loads a
couple URLs into the box. If the naive user plugs in
the box, the box contacts those URLs and downloads
up-to-date firmware and up-to-date ISP-specific
configuration files (a way of keeping the box locked
to the ISP). There is a procedure for negating
the automation, so if you get a device intended for
Bell, you can reuse it on Rogers VOIP etc. When I bought
an ATA box locally, it was already "pointed" at some
mid-sized VOIP company, so I had to undo the automation
and null it out. The ATA box also uses multiple levels
of password, and the box I got was open on all levels.

*******

Now, the difference between such "ISP" devices and actual
"retail routers", is the retail router has a nice GUI.
The rental model routers have rubbish GUI interfaces.
As a result, it's not always the best idea to buy
the "ISP router with the open passwords", because
a competing product may have a much nicer interface.

People buy the "ISP router with the open passwords"
in the hope that the Tech Support at the ISP will
support them and help them. Good luck with that :-)
The Tech Support person will "discuss the rainy weather
we're having", instead of helping you. On a BYOB
(Bring Your Own Box) ISP service, you're better off
just getting the box with the nicest interface.
Something you can review by downloading the
PDF manual for the retail box. Good luck finding
actual good documentation for the ISP-box.
(The manufacturer does not feel obliged to make
the documentation easy to get, when supplying
OEM boxes to the ISP by the truckload.)

So this is all standard practice stuff, a side
effect of "multi-level passwords" and clever ISPs.
If the ISP supports BYOB, then you can come up
with your own solution.

Paul

On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 21:23:04 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Finding a new laptop without an OS isn't easy (possible
I guess, but not easy - certainly not from the high/main street).


I don't know about the UK, but as far as I know it's not possible to
buy a new laptop without an OS here is the US. I've never seen one.

On 28/07/2016 01:56, /less wrote:
On 07/26/2016 09:08 PM, Z wrote:
I wouldn't do it. When 7 is no longer supported, I will go to Linux
Mint. Windows 10 is great for hackers and thieves with the main hacker
and thief being Microsoft itself.

I fully concur!
I currently dual boot with Linux Mint, keep on acquainting myself with
Linux and gradually phase out Win7.

Linux Mint is the best way to go. Better than Ubuntu.
Linux has finally become user friendly.

Fokke

On 28/07/2016 04:17, /less wrote:


Be that as it may, acquiring reasonable good lap-tops without OS is
most certainly possible.

"Reasonable good" depends. when an OEM makes a laptop or desktop, he or
she needs to test it before shipping it to make sure it is in working
order. Without an Os it is impossible to test any machine. do you know
how you can test a machine without installing an OS? They could use a
free test version OS from Microsoft (Microsoft gives you 90 days
Enterprise version for free - 10 and 8.1) and these can be used.
however, some have started using Windows 10 Home and Professional as
well and the user needs to activate it by inserting their own key or
they could wipe the disk clean and start again using their own disks.

However, the machine needs to be tested before shipping so the OS needs
to be installed. DELL, HP, Toshiba, Acer, Samsung etc WILL never send
anything without an OS. You can build your own machine but the cost is
likely to be prohibitive unless you scavenge or steal parts from
somewhere and value your time as zero. to me time is valuable so I buy
ready made machines. I might wipe the disk once I am happy with the
machine but the machine I receive must have gone through the rigorous
testing process within the OEM.

Can you build your own laptop? I don't think so because you can't buy
parts like you can for a desktop. So you need to have something built
for you.




--
With over 350 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

On 28/07/2016 18:40, Fokke Nauta wrote:

Linux has finally become user friendly.



Does it do anything meaningful? I want to run my Accounting and Tax
software, can I do that in Linux? I want to run Visual Studio so that I
can create and manage my MVC website, can I do that in Linux? I need to
test run my SQL scripts before I implement them in production servers,
can I do that? I am using MSSQL and and all data is on it.

Are you saying I should have Linux on my desk and always dual boot in
Windows to do what I want to do? this is going to be almost 100% of the
time then. What use is Linux for if I can't do any of this.




--
With over 350 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

On 07/28/2016 01:40 PM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28/07/2016 01:56, /less wrote:
On 07/26/2016 09:08 PM, Z wrote:
I wouldn't do it. When 7 is no longer supported, I will go to Linux
Mint. Windows 10 is great for hackers and thieves with the main hacker
and thief being Microsoft itself.

I fully concur!
I currently dual boot with Linux Mint, keep on acquainting myself with
Linux and gradually phase out Win7.

Linux Mint is the best way to go. Better than Ubuntu.
Linux has finally become user friendly.

Fokke
I started Jan 1 using my Mint dual boot full time. Like jumping in the
deep end of the pool. It seemed the easy way to test and see if I can
do what I need to on Linux.

Well 7 months later, I've created my own icon theme, desktop theme,
windows theme, and sounds. I've got almost everything and anything
tweaked. And you know, I really like it. Mint 17.3 Cinnamon.

On 07/29/2016 12:14 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 21:23:04 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Finding a new laptop without an OS isn't easy (possible
I guess, but not easy - certainly not from the high/main street).

I don't know about the UK, but as far as I know it's not possible to
buy a new laptop without an OS here is the US. I've never seen one.

I find this 'forced' restriction (or addition) most remarkable to say
the least; Collusion between hardware and software provider at its best!

On 07/29/2016 09:57 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2016-07-28 19:42, /less wrote:
On 07/29/2016 12:14 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 21:23:04 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Finding a new laptop without an OS isn't easy (possible
I guess, but not easy - certainly not from the high/main street).

I don't know about the UK, but as far as I know it's not possible to
buy a new laptop without an OS here is the US. I've never seen one.

I find this 'forced' restriction (or addition) most remarkable to say
the least; Collusion between hardware and software provider at its best!

It's as forced as installing a drive-train in a car..... But at least
the car makers often offer different drive-trains for the same model.

Quite right, the customer has a choice!
These choices seem non-existent when purchasing a lap-top in some
countries (notable sophisticated western countries).

Fact is, that these days only the geekiest geeks would want a blank
computer.

A lap-top without OS is not a 'blank' computer. One does not have to be
a geek to install an OS - (I am just an average ex WinXP user).

The average user just wants to push the power button, and
start using the device. Just as they just want to start the car and go.

Well, since in your country no alternatives are offered the average user
is left without choices...

Good Guy wrote:
On 28/07/2016 18:40, Fokke Nauta wrote:

Linux has finally become user friendly.



Does it do anything meaningful? I want to run my Accounting and Tax
software, can I do that in Linux? I want to run Visual Studio so that I
can create and manage my MVC website, can I do that in Linux? I need to
test run my SQL scripts before I implement them in production servers,
can I do that? I am using MSSQL and and all data is on it.

Are you saying I should have Linux on my desk and always dual boot in
Windows to do what I want to do? this is going to be almost 100% of the
time then. What use is Linux for if I can't do any of this.





Don't worry, no one cares if you use Linux or not.

--
Z

Wolf K wrote:
Blank computers were difficult to sell, hence became dead stock, hence
retailers stopped offering them. I recall talking to a salesperson in
the 90s. His shop offered computers preloaded with Windows, plus
software bundles. They would also sell you OS/2 if you wanted it, and
even loaded it for small service fee. They didn't stock blank computers,
but would order one for you. No walk-in market for blank machines. And
for a very good reason: even back then, customers wanted a usable
machine, not one they had to work on.

Still sold in Spain:

http://www.appinformatica.com/barebo...-hd2.5-s-m.php

They even use the term "bare bones". It comes with no OS. I guess the
Spaniards are more computer savvy than the US Big Buy/Wal Mart users.

--
Z

[snip]

But no retailer here will stock blank machines. The market is just too
small and capricious. The markup on computers is razor-thin, the shop
can't afford to stock anything that doesn't move within a month or two.

I suspect that you have little or no experience in retail.


There's a local computer store near here (called CPU, IIRC for Computer
Parts and Upgrades). I bought s motherboard/CPU/RAM there last year.
They'll even assemble the system for you if you want. I installed
Windows 7 on that.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference."