Win 10 Defrag

Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows window
then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag as running
when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a bug or a feature?
Is a third-party defragger required to solve this problem?
TIA, Keith

On 1/17/2018 10:17 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-01-17 08:52, Keith Keith wrote:
Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows
window then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag
as running when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a
bug or a feature?
Is a third-party defragger required to solve this problem?
TIA, Keith


If you ant to get rid of clutter, use Disk Cleanup. I've not noticed any
obvious gain in speed here on Win 8.1, and doubt you'd see any in Win10.

Disk Cleanup removes un necessary files from your disk. If you click
Clean up system files it removes all of the files created in the update.
Note: some update information needs to be a certain age before it is
removed.

On one of my computers, it recently removed over 2.5 GB of upgrade files.


--
2017: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

Keith Keith wrote in
:

Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows
window then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag
as running when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a
bug or a feature? Is a third-party defragger required to solve this
problem? TIA, Keith


There is really very little reason to run Defrag under Windows 10. Win10
periodicallly runs Defrag by itself as a background process to keep disks
mostly organized. The few times I have run Defrag manually, there really
wasn't all the much for it to do. It may look like the disk is fragmented
from the display, but for the most part, while a file may still be in
fragments, they are a few large ones that have little impact on program
execution and read/writes. Most of the highly fragmented files I have found
are things like log files that are written to but seldom if ever read
again.

My current system is coming up on being five years old, and I have only run
Defrag a few times in that span, yet my system is still very responsive.
Windows 10 1709 boots in about a minute or less, although most of that is
because my C: drive is an SSD, but the times I was booting from a HD, it
was only about double that.

REMEMBER: For Pete's sake, NEVER defrag an SSD. Defrag cures latency
problems, which is something SSDs don't have. All you will accomplish is
wearing out you limited lifetime memory faster.

Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 1/17/2018 10:17 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-01-17 08:52, Keith Keith wrote:
Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows
window then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag
as running when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a
bug or a feature?
Is a third-party defragger required to solve this problem?
TIA, Keith


If you ant to get rid of clutter, use Disk Cleanup. I've not noticed
any obvious gain in speed here on Win 8.1, and doubt you'd see any in
Win10.

Disk Cleanup removes un necessary files from your disk. If you click
Clean up system files it removes all of the files created in the update.
Note: some update information needs to be a certain age before it is
removed.

On one of my computers, it recently removed over 2.5 GB of upgrade files.

You have ten days to "revert" from Windows 10 to
Windows 7, if you "updated by mistake".

If your intention is to remove the 20GB of C:\Windows.old
files, then Disk Cleanup ("cleanmgr.exe") can do that
for you. Once Windows.old is removed though, you can
no longer use the "Revert" option in Windows 10, to
return to Windows 7.

*******

To defragment:

In File Explorer, right click a drive letter (like C and
select Properties : Tools. There should be an Optimize.

On an SSD, Optimize will only "TRIM" - this means it tells
the SSD which clusters are not being used, and those clusters
can be considered for the "free pool". Optimize should
not move data around.

On conventional rotating HDD, Optimize does defragment. It
doesn't touch files larger than 50MB in size, because
large files are not considered to be good candidates
for defragmentation.

Now, is this the point where you're seeing a Command Prompt window ?

Another way to trigger the defragmentation process, is
using Disk Management and selecting "Shrink".

If you leave the "Optimize" dialog up on the screen, and
do the Disk Management right-click and "Shrink" option, you
will see the Optimize dialog suddenly become animated
and it will go to work. So that's another trigger
condition for its code to run. It uses the defrag API
to move files out of the way so a volume can shrink.

You can later "Expand" a volume in Disk Management to
bring it back to full size.

I don't recommend these techniques, if you have backup
automation running, as you potentially are changing the
size of a partition that might need to be restored
some day. You have to be careful with your "technique"
if you expect to not disturb backup automation. While there
are backup softwares that tolerate partition size changes,
I can't guarantee all 20 different Windows backups
programs support that.

Anyway, there's no real reason for a shell window to
be popping up. Any EXE used by Optimize, should be
forked without an interface being necessary. The
GUI in Optimize is all the interface needed. making
a command prompt appear on the desktop, would not
help matters.

*******

I use JKDefrag 3.36 as an adjunct. But it's just not
the same as the third-party defrag Microsoft purchased
and put in WinXP. That was a good one, because it
both optimized (pushed to the left) and defragmented
at the same time. And that one also starts up when
you aren't watching, and moves .pf files around or
something. I caught it one day, in a loop doing that
in WinXP.

JKDefrag has a command line option, to "push" all the
files to the left. Which almost works as well as
Disk Management shrink, but with zero risk. JKDefrag
doesn't change the size of a partition.

There are also commercial defragmenters that are
"over-optimized" and those tools don't really understand
what users want. They're nothing but a pain in the
ass, so get the free "trial" of one of those and test,
before you buy.

The single biggest improvement for Windows 10, is
replacing the C: drive with an SSD :-) It speeds up
boot, it speeds up Indexing, and defrag becomes
TRIM instead. You don't defrag an SSD (except in
rare circumstances that Windows recognizes and
executes during Optimize). I would not run
JKDefrag against my SSD. Mistake. Wasted wear cycles.
SSD seek time is "zero", no matter which cluster you
fetch.

If you scroll down here, 32 bit and 64 bit versions of
JKDefrag are available.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150107....com/JkDefrag/

I use command line. In an *Administrator* Command Prompt

jkdefrag -a 1 -d 2 C: === colored block review of fragmentation

jkdefrag -a 5 -d 2 C: === push to left (fastest part of disk)
Data will be fragmented by this.

jkdefrag -a 2 -d 2 C: === now, defragment

After each run, JKDefrag prepares jkdefrag.log. When a disk
is extremely fragmented, this takes a minute or two. You
will notice the file size of jkdefrag.log keeps increasing,
which means the program hasn't exited yet.

When the program truly exits, you can now emit
another command line run, and the graphic box
will appear.

If JKDefrag.exe is still running, and still working
on the log, attempting to run JKDefrag.exe at that
point, will not start. Once the log is completely
generated from the last run, attempts to run the
next command will create a graphic box as usual.

Using "notepad jkdefrag.log", you can review the details
of the last run.

Paul

Tim wrote:
Keith Keith wrote in
:

Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows
window then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag
as running when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a
bug or a feature? Is a third-party defragger required to solve this
problem? TIA, Keith


There is really very little reason to run Defrag under Windows 10. Win10
periodicallly runs Defrag by itself as a background process to keep disks
mostly organized. The few times I have run Defrag manually, there really
wasn't all the much for it to do. It may look like the disk is fragmented
from the display, but for the most part, while a file may still be in
fragments, they are a few large ones that have little impact on program
execution and read/writes. Most of the highly fragmented files I have found
are things like log files that are written to but seldom if ever read
again.

My current system is coming up on being five years old, and I have only run
Defrag a few times in that span, yet my system is still very responsive.
Windows 10 1709 boots in about a minute or less, although most of that is
because my C: drive is an SSD, but the times I was booting from a HD, it
was only about double that.

REMEMBER: For Pete's sake, NEVER defrag an SSD. Defrag cures latency
problems, which is something SSDs don't have. All you will accomplish is
wearing out you limited lifetime memory faster.

If you did an upgrade from Win7 to Win10, a good improvement
is to remove C:\Windows.old using "cleanmgr.exe", and then
defragment if you want. You can barely feel an improvement
after doing that. It helps a bit on an HDD. I use this technique
on my Win10 Insider installations (which get OS Upgrades a lot).

I've not run into any software yet, which writes
a "perfect pattern" of disk files, to optimize boot
time or some such. But I'm sure such a software exists,
and it has to watch a few boots to "train itself"
for the best pattern and rearrangement of file
positions on the HDD.

Paul

Hello Paul,

You have ten days to "revert" from Windows 10 to
Windows 7, if you "updated by mistake".
If your intention is to remove the 20GB of C:\Windows.old
files, then Disk Cleanup ("cleanmgr.exe") can do that
for you. Once Windows.old is removed though, you can
no longer use the "Revert" option in Windows 10, to
return to Windows 7.
*******

Sadly, it was more then three months after the "auto upgrade" that he complained
that the "Start" button had disappeared. I loaded the "shell" Win 7 look-alike,
which he copes with.
I'd forgotten the defrag trick, in File Explorer; we'll run it after uninstalling
unwanted programs and running cleanmgr.exe.

To defragment:

In File Explorer, right click a drive letter (like C and select
Properties : Tools. There should be an Optimize.

On an SSD, Optimize will only "TRIM" - this means it tells

the SSD which clusters are not being used, and those clusters

can be considered for the "free pool". Optimize should

not move data around.

On conventional rotating HDD, Optimize does defragment. It
doesn't touch files larger than 50MB in size, because
large files are not considered to be good candidates
for defragmentation.
Now, is this the point where you're seeing a Command Prompt window ?

No, it's after typing "defrag" in the WinKey "Search programs and files box"
and disappears immediately. Haven't tried to open a Command Prompt session.

Another way to trigger the defragmentation process, is using Disk
Management and selecting "Shrink".
If you leave the "Optimize" dialog up on the screen, and
do the Disk Management right-click and "Shrink" option, you
will see the Optimize dialog suddenly become animated
and it will go to work. So that's another trigger
condition for its code to run. It uses the defrag API
to move files out of the way so a volume can shrink.
You can later "Expand" a volume in Disk Management to bring it back to
full size.
I don't recommend these techniques, if you have backup
automation running, as you potentially are changing the
size of a partition that might need to be restored
some day. You have to be careful with your "technique"
if you expect to not disturb backup automation. While there
are backup softwares that tolerate partition size changes,
I can't guarantee all 20 different Windows backups
programs support that.
Anyway, there's no real reason for a shell window to
be popping up. Any EXE used by Optimize, should be
forked without an interface being necessary. The
GUI in Optimize is all the interface needed. making
a command prompt appear on the desktop, would not
help matters.
*******
I use JKDefrag 3.36 as an adjunct. But it's just not
the same as the third-party defrag Microsoft purchased
and put in WinXP. That was a good one, because it
both optimized (pushed to the left) and defragmented
at the same time. And that one also starts up when
you aren't watching, and moves .pf files around or
something. I caught it one day, in a loop doing that
in WinXP.
JKDefrag has a command line option, to "push" all the
files to the left. Which almost works as well as
Disk Management shrink, but with zero risk. JKDefrag
doesn't change the size of a partition.
There are also commercial defragmenters that are
"over-optimized" and those tools don't really understand
what users want. They're nothing but a pain in the
ass, so get the free "trial" of one of those and test,
before you buy.
The single biggest improvement for Windows 10, is
replacing the C: drive with an SSD :-) It speeds up
boot, it speeds up Indexing, and defrag becomes
TRIM instead. You don't defrag an SSD (except in
rare circumstances that Windows recognizes and
executes during Optimize). I would not run
JKDefrag against my SSD. Mistake. Wasted wear cycles.
SSD seek time is "zero", no matter which cluster you
fetch.
If you scroll down here, 32 bit and 64 bit versions of JKDefrag are
available.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150107...ssels.com/JkDe
frag/
I use command line. In an *Administrator* Command Prompt
jkdefrag -a 1 -d 2 C: === colored block review of fragmentation
jkdefrag -a 5 -d 2 C: === push to left (fastest part of disk)
Data will be fragmented by this.
jkdefrag -a 2 -d 2 C: === now, defragment

After each run, JKDefrag prepares jkdefrag.log. When a disk is
extremely fragmented, this takes a minute or two. You will notice the
file size of jkdefrag.log keeps increasing, which means the program
hasn't exited yet.

When the program truly exits, you can now emit

another command line run, and the graphic box

will appear.

If JKDefrag.exe is still running, and still working on the log,
attempting to run JKDefrag.exe at that point, will not start. Once the
log is completely generated from the last run, attempts to run the
next command will create a graphic box as usual.

Using "notepad jkdefrag.log", you can review the details of the last
run.

Paul


Thanks Paul, comments above.

We use your suggestions

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:46:36 -0700, KenW kenw@
noplace.com wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 22:06:40 GMT, Tim wrote:

Keith Keith wrote in
:

Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows
window then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag
as running when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a
bug or a feature? Is a third-party defragger required to solve this
problem? TIA, Keith


There is really very little reason to run Defrag under Windows 10. Win10
periodicallly runs Defrag by itself as a background process to keep disks
mostly organized. The few times I have run Defrag manually, there really
wasn't all the much for it to do. It may look like the disk is fragmented
from the display, but for the most part, while a file may still be in
fragments, they are a few large ones that have little impact on program
execution and read/writes. Most of the highly fragmented files I have found
are things like log files that are written to but seldom if ever read
again.

My current system is coming up on being five years old, and I have only run
Defrag a few times in that span, yet my system is still very responsive.
Windows 10 1709 boots in about a minute or less, although most of that is
because my C: drive is an SSD, but the times I was booting from a HD, it
was only about double that.

REMEMBER: For Pete's sake, NEVER defrag an SSD. Defrag cures latency
problems, which is something SSDs don't have. All you will accomplish is
wearing out you limited lifetime memory faster.

Win 10 only runs a Trim on an ssd not a full defrag.

As far as I know, there is truly no reason whatsoever to defrag an
SSD.

On 17/1/2018 21:52, Keith Keith wrote:
Since last week's update Defrag flashes up command-prompt Windows window
then appears to do nothing, Task Manager does not show defrag as running
when showing processe from all users selected. Is this a bug or a feature?
Is a third-party defragger required to solve this problem?

Default settings right after Window$ installation schedules a background
Defrag.

Just turn off everything in Defrag's settings, especially if you are
using a SSD as the OS drive.

--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
�借貸! ��騙! ��交! �打交! �打劫! �自殺! 請考慮綜� (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 15:46:36 -0700, KenW kenw@

Win 10 only runs a Trim on an ssd not a full defrag.

As far as I know, there is truly no reason whatsoever to defrag an
SSD.

There is, but you have to go look for it.

https://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRe...YourSS D.aspx

"Storage Optimizer will defrag an SSD once a month if volume snapshots
are enabled. This is by design and necessary due to slow volsnap
copy on write performance on fragmented SSD volumes.

It’s also somewhat of a misconception that fragmentation is not a
problem on SSDs. If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum
file fragmentation (when the metadata can’t represent any more file
fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend
a file. Furthermore, more file fragments means more metadata to
process while reading/writing a file, which can lead to slower
performance.
"

As for the second paragraph, it's real easy to create. Format yourself
a brand new NTFS partition. Make it 100GB large or bigger. Next,
tick the "Compress" tick box in the partition properties. This
will attempt to compress any files you write to the volume. As long
as the partition has the default 4KB cluster size, the compression
tick box will be offered in the Properties.

Now, copy a large file to that partition. At around 50-60GB of copied
file, an error dialog will pop up, claiming that something has
run out of system resources. It isn't actually reporting the correct
error. What's happened in fact, is the file has too many fragents
now, for the NTFS extension mechanism to represent it. The $MFT
can't add another section to the file.

And, if you find the hack (registry setting) to change the *size*
of some extension property, it doesn't appear to help. I tried that
too.

You can easily copy a 60GB file from NTFS to NTFS if compression
is not enabled. You can make 2TB files if you want, no problem at
all. But as soon as you enable compression, the clock is ticking,
and around ~60GB or so, that copy operation to the compressed
volume will fail.

As it turns out, NTFS compression is not scalable.

Paul