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#31
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:33:23 -0500, EGK wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:25:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: I've had zero problems with networking multiple PCs since about 1991. I completely ignore the whole concept of network discovery, Workgroups, Homegroups, and all of that. It simply isn't required. If I try to access a computer that isn't available, the request times out. Nothing crashes or locks up. Did you leave out out a step?. To do what you're doing, don't you need to set up all your devices with a static IP in your router or set each computer individually with a static IP? I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP server (usually the router). |
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#32
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:22:00 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:33:23 -0500, EGK wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:25:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: I've had zero problems with networking multiple PCs since about 1991. I completely ignore the whole concept of network discovery, Workgroups, Homegroups, and all of that. It simply isn't required. If I try to access a computer that isn't available, the request times out. Nothing crashes or locks up. Did you leave out out a step?. To do what you're doing, don't you need to set up all your devices with a static IP in your router or set each computer individually with a static IP? I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP server (usually the router). Heh. I actually prefer simple so if I have problems again I may just try what you're doing. One of Microsoft's biggest problems, in my opinion, is they don't follow the design principle of KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. They overcomplicate everything |
#33
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On 14 Jan 2018, Char Jackson wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10: I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP server (usually the router). I certainly don't find that to be true. All DHCP-dealt addresses will be passed on to some other device eventually unless the device is on all the time unless you tell the router not to. It's not a question of "if", it's "when". I've had very little trouble networking Windows XP, 7, 8, 10, and various Linux computers in my home network. They're all visible to each other and can connect to each other. Some of the things I'm careful to make happen are account names and passwords exist on all devices, reserved DHCP addresses on the router, turn on Homegroup networking, turn off anything that says "Home Group". I used to sometimes need to add entries in LMHOSTS, but that no longer seems necessary. I have almost never had to refer to computers on my network by IP address. It all mostly just works. Yes, there have been glitches sometimes, but it's been some time since I had to deal with the issue. |
#34
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 21:32:16 -0500, Nil
wrote: On 14 Jan 2018, Char Jackson wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10: I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP server (usually the router). I certainly don't find that to be true. All DHCP-dealt addresses will be passed on to some other device eventually unless the device is on all the time unless you tell the router not to. It's not a question of "if", it's "when". Well, yes, of course. If you leave a DHCP-enabled computer off long enough, there's a decent chance its IP could be handed out to another device, or it could get a different IP when you bring it back online. I don't think anyone will be surprised to hear that. If you're someone who leaves computers off for an extended period of time, then by all means go ahead and configure static IPs or use DHCP reservations, as I mentioned above. Anyway, I don't see that you're contradicting anything I said, so I'm not sure what to make of your first sentence above. |
#35
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Network broken in Win10 again?
Char Jackson wrote:
Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN. I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity. You have to remember what the competition had. The Chooser. Good times... https://forums.macrumors.com/proxy.p...f35495a07b d1 The Chooser spans a lot more than your local subnet. Silly and fun at the same time. Imagine being able to see the departmental file server in Indonesia, from your desk :-) Even kooky outposts on 64Kbit leased lines, used to show up. Eventually. We had a couple locations where the networking was... pretty bad. Today, they'd probably be using satellite links. It took a *lot* of IT effort to keep that running. It was a kind of Comp.Sci project. Paul |
#36
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 02:05:13 -0500, Paul wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN. I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity. You have to remember what the competition had. The Chooser. Good times... https://forums.macrumors.com/proxy.p...f35495a07b d1 The Chooser spans a lot more than your local subnet. Silly and fun at the same time. Imagine being able to see the departmental file server in Indonesia, from your desk :-) All I care about is being able to see if a PC is on before I try transferring files to it. Good exercise, I suppose, but if I have to walk downstairs to see if it's on, it kind of renders networking useless. Char says he hasn't had any problems but since the Creator's update if a share isn't online, file Explorer will try for a long time, locking up explorer completely until it times out. Sometimes it even crashes Explorer trying to open a share that's not online. |
#37
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Network broken in Win10 again?
Char Jackson wrote:
Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN. I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity. Sometimes it is handy to traverse via Explorer a computer in Network to access an infrequently used share than it is to map all network shares in Explorer or remember and type share URI... -- Take care, Jonathan ------------------- LITTLE WORKS STUDIO http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com |
#38
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:21:06 -0500, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, EGK wrote:
Just to be certain though, you only mention homegroup Provider service and FDRP. I set both Function Discovery Provider Host and Function Provider Resource Publication to automatic. Was that necessary or any reason not to set both to auto? I then disabled both Homegroup Listener and Homegroup Provider. Again, was it necessary to disable both or does it even matter? I set all those services the first time I did it, but later found that it is only FDRP that needs to be set to automatic, and only HomeGroup Provider needs to be disabled to turn off HomeGroups completely. I tried this when I set up other machines on the network to the same configuration. It occurred to me that this might work when I realized HomeGroup Provider depended on FDRP, and launched FDRP in a way that was broken. Previously, I had been restarting FDRP after every reboot, with mixed results. I found that Provider Host will kick in automatically if its needed, and if HomeGroup Provider is disabled, HomeGroups become completely unavailable to Windows 10, effectively killing the entire HomeGroup system, and whatever interference it causes with Workgroups. I'm glad it worked out for you. -- Zag No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten |
#39
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:06:42 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:21:21 -0500, EGK wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:14:49 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote: Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-) Did you read Zaghadka's post ? He was saying he believes that the homegroup services are what's causing the problem with network discovery in the first place. Even if you ignore Homegroup entirely, the services are still running. If updates turn the services back on, it may cause the same problem again. I'm not a networking wizard by a long shot. All I know is his advice is the first thing I've seen that actually fixed my issues. Yes, I saw that post and what I'm saying is that you actually don't need to worry about network discovery or what a future update might do. That's fine, though. If your way is working and you're happy, that's all that matters. Actually, he does. Microsoft turns HomeGroup Provider back on after every major update, so each time you do a full feature update of Windows 10, you have to go into services and fix their mess. Regular security updates haven't affected the service configuration, to date, however. Only the major updates. You don't actually have to be using HomeGroups to create the problem, so ignoring them doesn't work. The code that makes HomeGroups available to the user literally breaks LANManager discovery. So you need to turn it off completely. -- Zag No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten |
#40
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:15:58 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote: Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-) I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the fix used in this thread. Yes, I know. That's why I said they could just ignore that 'fix', just as they can ignore Workgroups, Homegroups, network discovery, and all of that. Networking for the purpose of sharing folders and printers, etc., doesn't rely on any of that so it doesn't matter if it's configured correctly or incorrectly, whether it's enabled or not, what a future update might do, etc. When you access a remote PC by its IP address, none of that other crap matters. Ignoring it won't help, snip Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN. I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity. Oh, okay. I see your point now. If you want to _browse your network in Explorer_, this is the only way to do it. However, typing in an IP address or the \\COMP_NAME (WINS?) address has always worked for me, too. Also, if you're using DHCP on your router, those IP addresses can change, so to use an IP address effectively you'd have to look up the DHCP lease table first. YMMV. For me that's a PITA. I prefer to see if a computer is turned on or off in Explorer, myself, rather than typing in the address, having it not work, and having to go to the physical location of the machine to see if it's a networking error or just the machine being in sleep mode. But I'm sure it works fine for your use case. IPs are definitely a workaround. -- Zag No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten |
#41
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:44:11 -0600, Zaghadka
wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:15:58 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote: Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-) I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the fix used in this thread. Yes, I know. That's why I said they could just ignore that 'fix', just as they can ignore Workgroups, Homegroups, network discovery, and all of that. Networking for the purpose of sharing folders and printers, etc., doesn't rely on any of that so it doesn't matter if it's configured correctly or incorrectly, whether it's enabled or not, what a future update might do, etc. When you access a remote PC by its IP address, none of that other crap matters. Ignoring it won't help, snip Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN. I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity. Oh, okay. I see your point now. If you want to _browse your network in Explorer_, this is the only way to do it. However, typing in an IP address or the \\COMP_NAME (WINS?) address has always worked for me, too. Also, if you're using DHCP on your router, those IP addresses can change, so to use an IP address effectively you'd have to look up the DHCP lease table first. YMMV. For me that's a PITA. I prefer to see if a computer is turned on or off in Explorer, myself, rather than typing in the address, having it not work, and having to go to the physical location of the machine to see if it's a networking error or just the machine being in sleep mode. But I'm sure it works fine for your use case. IPs are definitely a workaround. I absolutely don't consider accessing LAN PCs by their IP address to be a workaround. On the other hand, 98% of this thread has been about being able to 'see' or 'browse' to a LAN PC, which I consider to be a kludge. As evidenced by this thread, all of that discovery stuff can be quite fragile, whereas IP access just works. |
#42
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:35:59 -0600, Zaghadka
wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:06:42 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:21:21 -0500, EGK wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:14:49 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote: Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-) Did you read Zaghadka's post ? He was saying he believes that the homegroup services are what's causing the problem with network discovery in the first place. Even if you ignore Homegroup entirely, the services are still running. If updates turn the services back on, it may cause the same problem again. I'm not a networking wizard by a long shot. All I know is his advice is the first thing I've seen that actually fixed my issues. Yes, I saw that post and what I'm saying is that you actually don't need to worry about network discovery or what a future update might do. That's fine, though. If your way is working and you're happy, that's all that matters. Actually, he does. Microsoft turns HomeGroup Provider back on after every major update, so each time you do a full feature update of Windows 10, you have to go into services and fix their mess. Regular security updates haven't affected the service configuration, to date, however. Only the major updates. You don't actually have to be using HomeGroups to create the problem, so ignoring them doesn't work. The code that makes HomeGroups available to the user literally breaks LANManager discovery. So you need to turn it off completely. As you acknowledged in your next post, none of the things you mentioned above are required unless a person wants to browse their LAN, which brings up the question of why a person would need to browse their LAN? Don't people already know what's on their LAN? I know what's on my LAN, but maybe I'm unusual in that regard. By accessing PCs directly, I get to avoid all of the things that seem to cause pain to others, like the Workgroup and Homegroup, network discovery, master browser elections, etc. |
#43
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Network broken in Win10 again?
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul
wrote: Char Jackson wrote: On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote: Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-) I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the fix used in this thread. Ignoring it won't help, unless the Services can be stopped from showing up. I expect when the OS is Upgraded, would be a perfect time to put all the HomeGroup services back. I think Homegroup depends on IPv6 - so you could disable that in the network stack as it doesnt seem to get turned back on by an update? For example, you could rename the executable used by each service, but I would think an OS Upgrade would put them back again. I saw some comment, where it was mentioned Homegroups were going out the door anyway ? Maybe at some point, they'll stop switching it on themselves. Paul -- Stephen |
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