A Windows XP help forum. PCbanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PCbanter forum » Windows 10 » Windows 10 Help Forum
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Network broken in Win10 again?



 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old January 14th 18, 11:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:33:23 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:25:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

I've had zero problems with networking multiple PCs since about 1991. I
completely ignore the whole concept of network discovery, Workgroups,
Homegroups, and all of that. It simply isn't required. If I try to
access a computer that isn't available, the request times out. Nothing
crashes or locks up.


Did you leave out out a step?. To do what you're doing, don't you need to
set up all your devices with a static IP in your router or set each computer
individually with a static IP?


I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple.
Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over
and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs
configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP
server (usually the router).

Ads
  #32  
Old January 15th 18, 12:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
EGK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:22:00 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:33:23 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:25:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

I've had zero problems with networking multiple PCs since about 1991. I
completely ignore the whole concept of network discovery, Workgroups,
Homegroups, and all of that. It simply isn't required. If I try to
access a computer that isn't available, the request times out. Nothing
crashes or locks up.


Did you leave out out a step?. To do what you're doing, don't you need to
set up all your devices with a static IP in your router or set each computer
individually with a static IP?


I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively simple.
Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given MAC address over
and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means use static IPs
configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations configured on the DHCP
server (usually the router).


Heh. I actually prefer simple so if I have problems again I may just try
what you're doing. One of Microsoft's biggest problems, in my opinion, is
they don't follow the design principle of KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid.
They overcomplicate everything
  #33  
Old January 15th 18, 03:32 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Nil[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,731
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On 14 Jan 2018, Char Jackson wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively
simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given
MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means
use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations
configured on the DHCP server (usually the router).


I certainly don't find that to be true. All DHCP-dealt addresses will
be passed on to some other device eventually unless the device is on
all the time unless you tell the router not to. It's not a question of
"if", it's "when".

I've had very little trouble networking Windows XP, 7, 8, 10, and
various Linux computers in my home network. They're all visible to each
other and can connect to each other. Some of the things I'm careful to
make happen are account names and passwords exist on all devices,
reserved DHCP addresses on the router, turn on Homegroup networking,
turn off anything that says "Home Group". I used to sometimes need to
add entries in LMHOSTS, but that no longer seems necessary. I have
almost never had to refer to computers on my network by IP address.

It all mostly just works. Yes, there have been glitches sometimes, but
it's been some time since I had to deal with the issue.
  #34  
Old January 15th 18, 07:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 21:32:16 -0500, Nil
wrote:

On 14 Jan 2018, Char Jackson wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

I intentionally left that out in order to keep things relatively
simple. Most DHCP servers will hand back the same IP to a given
MAC address over and over. If that becomes a problem, by all means
use static IPs configured on each PC and/or DHCP reservations
configured on the DHCP server (usually the router).


I certainly don't find that to be true. All DHCP-dealt addresses will
be passed on to some other device eventually unless the device is on
all the time unless you tell the router not to. It's not a question of
"if", it's "when".


Well, yes, of course. If you leave a DHCP-enabled computer off long
enough, there's a decent chance its IP could be handed out to another
device, or it could get a different IP when you bring it back online. I
don't think anyone will be surprised to hear that. If you're someone who
leaves computers off for an extended period of time, then by all means
go ahead and configure static IPs or use DHCP reservations, as I
mentioned above.

Anyway, I don't see that you're contradicting anything I said, so I'm
not sure what to make of your first sentence above.

  #35  
Old January 15th 18, 08:05 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

Char Jackson wrote:


Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is
a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN.
I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity.


You have to remember what the competition had.

The Chooser.

Good times...

https://forums.macrumors.com/proxy.p...f35495a07b d1

The Chooser spans a lot more than your local subnet.

Silly and fun at the same time. Imagine being able to
see the departmental file server in Indonesia, from your desk :-)

Even kooky outposts on 64Kbit leased lines, used to
show up. Eventually. We had a couple locations where the
networking was... pretty bad. Today, they'd probably be
using satellite links.

It took a *lot* of IT effort to keep that running.
It was a kind of Comp.Sci project.

Paul

  #36  
Old January 15th 18, 05:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
EGK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 103
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 02:05:13 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:


Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is
a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN.
I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity.


You have to remember what the competition had.

The Chooser.

Good times...

https://forums.macrumors.com/proxy.p...f35495a07b d1

The Chooser spans a lot more than your local subnet.

Silly and fun at the same time. Imagine being able to
see the departmental file server in Indonesia, from your desk :-)


All I care about is being able to see if a PC is on before I try
transferring files to it. Good exercise, I suppose, but if I have to walk
downstairs to see if it's on, it kind of renders networking useless.

Char says he hasn't had any problems but since the Creator's update if a
share isn't online, file Explorer will try for a long time, locking up
explorer completely until it times out. Sometimes it even crashes Explorer
trying to open a share that's not online.
  #37  
Old January 15th 18, 06:16 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jonathan N. Little[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,133
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

Char Jackson wrote:
Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is
a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN.
I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity.


Sometimes it is handy to traverse via Explorer a computer in Network to
access an infrequently used share than it is to map all network shares
in Explorer or remember and type share URI...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
  #38  
Old January 15th 18, 11:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Zaghadka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:21:06 -0500, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, EGK wrote:
Just to be certain though, you only mention homegroup Provider service

and
FDRP.

I set both Function Discovery Provider Host and Function Provider Resource
Publication to automatic. Was that necessary or any reason not to set both
to auto?

I then disabled both Homegroup Listener and Homegroup Provider. Again, was
it necessary to disable both or does it even matter?


I set all those services the first time I did it, but later found that it
is only FDRP that needs to be set to automatic, and only HomeGroup
Provider needs to be disabled to turn off HomeGroups completely. I tried
this when I set up other machines on the network to the same
configuration.

It occurred to me that this might work when I realized HomeGroup Provider
depended on FDRP, and launched FDRP in a way that was broken. Previously,
I had been restarting FDRP after every reboot, with mixed results.

I found that Provider Host will kick in automatically if its needed, and
if HomeGroup Provider is disabled, HomeGroups become completely
unavailable to Windows 10, effectively killing the entire HomeGroup
system, and whatever interference it causes with Workgroups.

I'm glad it worked out for you.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten
  #39  
Old January 15th 18, 11:35 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Zaghadka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:06:42 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:21:21 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:14:49 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote:

Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of
waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol

Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-)


Did you read Zaghadka's post ? He was saying he believes that the homegroup
services are what's causing the problem with network discovery in the first
place. Even if you ignore Homegroup entirely, the services are still
running. If updates turn the services back on, it may cause the same
problem again.

I'm not a networking wizard by a long shot. All I know is his advice is
the first thing I've seen that actually fixed my issues.


Yes, I saw that post and what I'm saying is that you actually don't need
to worry about network discovery or what a future update might do.

That's fine, though. If your way is working and you're happy, that's all
that matters.


Actually, he does. Microsoft turns HomeGroup Provider back on after every
major update, so each time you do a full feature update of Windows 10,
you have to go into services and fix their mess. Regular security updates
haven't affected the service configuration, to date, however. Only the
major updates.

You don't actually have to be using HomeGroups to create the problem, so
ignoring them doesn't work. The code that makes HomeGroups available to
the user literally breaks LANManager discovery. So you need to turn it
off completely.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten
  #40  
Old January 15th 18, 11:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Zaghadka
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:15:58 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote:

Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of
waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol

Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-)


I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they
put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the
fix used in this thread.


Yes, I know. That's why I said they could just ignore that 'fix', just
as they can ignore Workgroups, Homegroups, network discovery, and all of
that. Networking for the purpose of sharing folders and printers, etc.,
doesn't rely on any of that so it doesn't matter if it's configured
correctly or incorrectly, whether it's enabled or not, what a future
update might do, etc. When you access a remote PC by its IP address,
none of that other crap matters.

Ignoring it won't help, snip


Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is
a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN.
I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity.


Oh, okay. I see your point now. If you want to _browse your network in
Explorer_, this is the only way to do it.

However, typing in an IP address or the \\COMP_NAME (WINS?) address has
always worked for me, too. Also, if you're using DHCP on your router,
those IP addresses can change, so to use an IP address effectively you'd
have to look up the DHCP lease table first. YMMV. For me that's a PITA.

I prefer to see if a computer is turned on or off in Explorer, myself,
rather than typing in the address, having it not work, and having to go
to the physical location of the machine to see if it's a networking error
or just the machine being in sleep mode.

But I'm sure it works fine for your use case. IPs are definitely a
workaround.

--
Zag

No one ever said on their deathbed, 'Gee, I wish I had
spent more time alone with my computer.' ~Dan(i) Bunten
  #41  
Old January 16th 18, 06:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:44:11 -0600, Zaghadka
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:15:58 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote:

Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of
waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol

Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-)


I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they
put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the
fix used in this thread.


Yes, I know. That's why I said they could just ignore that 'fix', just
as they can ignore Workgroups, Homegroups, network discovery, and all of
that. Networking for the purpose of sharing folders and printers, etc.,
doesn't rely on any of that so it doesn't matter if it's configured
correctly or incorrectly, whether it's enabled or not, what a future
update might do, etc. When you access a remote PC by its IP address,
none of that other crap matters.

Ignoring it won't help, snip


Since you don't need it in order to network multiple PCs, ignoring it is
a fine approach unless you insist on having a visual display of the LAN.
I've never seen the value in that, once you get beyond curiosity.


Oh, okay. I see your point now. If you want to _browse your network in
Explorer_, this is the only way to do it.

However, typing in an IP address or the \\COMP_NAME (WINS?) address has
always worked for me, too. Also, if you're using DHCP on your router,
those IP addresses can change, so to use an IP address effectively you'd
have to look up the DHCP lease table first. YMMV. For me that's a PITA.

I prefer to see if a computer is turned on or off in Explorer, myself,
rather than typing in the address, having it not work, and having to go
to the physical location of the machine to see if it's a networking error
or just the machine being in sleep mode.

But I'm sure it works fine for your use case. IPs are definitely a
workaround.


I absolutely don't consider accessing LAN PCs by their IP address to be
a workaround.

On the other hand, 98% of this thread has been about being able to 'see'
or 'browse' to a LAN PC, which I consider to be a kludge. As evidenced
by this thread, all of that discovery stuff can be quite fragile,
whereas IP access just works.

  #42  
Old January 16th 18, 07:16 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:35:59 -0600, Zaghadka
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 16:06:42 -0600, in alt.comp.os.windows-10, Char
Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:21:21 -0500, EGK wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 12:14:49 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote:

Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of
waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol

Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-)

Did you read Zaghadka's post ? He was saying he believes that the homegroup
services are what's causing the problem with network discovery in the first
place. Even if you ignore Homegroup entirely, the services are still
running. If updates turn the services back on, it may cause the same
problem again.

I'm not a networking wizard by a long shot. All I know is his advice is
the first thing I've seen that actually fixed my issues.


Yes, I saw that post and what I'm saying is that you actually don't need
to worry about network discovery or what a future update might do.

That's fine, though. If your way is working and you're happy, that's all
that matters.


Actually, he does. Microsoft turns HomeGroup Provider back on after every
major update, so each time you do a full feature update of Windows 10,
you have to go into services and fix their mess. Regular security updates
haven't affected the service configuration, to date, however. Only the
major updates.

You don't actually have to be using HomeGroups to create the problem, so
ignoring them doesn't work. The code that makes HomeGroups available to
the user literally breaks LANManager discovery. So you need to turn it
off completely.


As you acknowledged in your next post, none of the things you mentioned
above are required unless a person wants to browse their LAN, which
brings up the question of why a person would need to browse their LAN?
Don't people already know what's on their LAN? I know what's on my LAN,
but maybe I'm unusual in that regard. By accessing PCs directly, I get
to avoid all of the things that seem to cause pain to others, like the
Workgroup and Homegroup, network discovery, master browser elections,
etc.

  #43  
Old January 16th 18, 09:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Stephen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 14:02:48 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jan 2018 13:08:52 -0500, EGK wrote:

Now if we could figure out a way to keep homegroup disabled instead of
waiting for the next Windows update to break it again. lol


Or just ignore it completely, since it's not needed for networking. ;-)


I think the reference was, that when updates come in, they
put the HomeGroup services back online, screwing up the
fix used in this thread.

Ignoring it won't help, unless the Services can be stopped
from showing up. I expect when the OS is Upgraded, would be
a perfect time to put all the HomeGroup services back.

I think Homegroup depends on IPv6
- so you could disable that in the network stack as it doesnt seem to
get turned back on by an update?

For example, you could rename the executable used by each
service, but I would think an OS Upgrade would put them
back again.

I saw some comment, where it was mentioned Homegroups were
going out the door anyway ? Maybe at some point, they'll
stop switching it on themselves.

Paul


--
Stephen
  #44  
Old January 17th 18, 09:13 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bob F[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 366
Default Network broken in Win10 again?

On 1/13/2018 12:02 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

Networking has always seemed like voodoo on Windows. Is there another
issue lately with build 1703 and 1709 where computers just disappear from
the network? I can still access them if I map the computers but they
simply disappear from the Network. I have three computers, all running
build 1709. I've reset the networking on all of them, rebooted one at a
time and get them to work. Then after a reboot or two, they're gone again.

I had this issue a couple of years ago with Windows 10 and looked high and
low for a fix. There are lots and lots of forums and posts online about
this issue but no one seems to have a sure-fire fix for it. It this
something Microsoft broke yet again?


Happens to me using mix of Win7 and XP pcs also. One specific XP pc
stops seeing one specific Win7 pc after period of time ... always.
Activity or not seems to make no difference and it's only "one way" (XP
not seeing Win7). All else is as it should be with 9 pcs, ip cam, two
wireless printers etc. connected. Reboot Win7 pc fixes issue for "x"
hours then it's issue ... again and again and ... Also that one Win7
pc does not seem to "like" being the master browser, again over time
issues arise every time it is. I'm thinking I'll disable onboard nic and
add a card see if that makes any difference.


I had a problem like that, and it turned out my Norton AV on the Win 7
PC was hanging somehow. Re-starting it solved the problem.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off






All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PCbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.