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#16
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Keyboard problem
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote: Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... OK, next question. Do any of these subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ? Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses for the +5V supply. A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers. A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port (+5V). And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too. However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse. A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each). The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out when inspecting a PCB. http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png ******* A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active material "melts" if too much current is drawn. When the power is off again, the material cools off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal conducts electricity). This means that normally the fuse resets itself. There is nothing to replace (normally). You can check your ports with a multimeter, but this is difficult to do without some deal of care so you don't short something out while working on it. An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving the fuse is still closed. A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp, a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present. I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above is a hint about what to look for. A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp, so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have a decently low resistance across the terminals when cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just to make the results more predictable. (There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse, which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.) Some of this is addressed in this document, written by Intel to help motherboard designers during the USB2 era. https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...usb.org:80/dev elopers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's good enough at this point. For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA, just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this would be a good test for power availability. A typical ATX power supply, can only run about five of these, as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a 2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a Walmart or not. http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html Paul Since the problem USB keyboard I'm using works I guess that indicates separate fuses. Since I intend to buy USB keyboards in the future I rashly asume that will not be a problem. -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
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#17
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Since the problem USB keyboard I'm using works I guess that indicates separate fuses. Since I intend to buy USB keyboards in the future I rashly asume that will not be a problem. A USB keyboard is not normally a heavy electrical load. It should fit into a 100mA power envelop (USB2 devices have classes, and the low power ones, like mice, are generally under 100mA). The actual keyboard scanning function, doesn't really need that much power. There are a few USB2 devices that were high power, like a certain ADSL USB2 modem that drew 530mA... from a 500mA circuit :-) The fuse is not supposed to be "set" anywhere near the 500mA value, and the fuse is meant to prevent damage to the pins. So a value of fuse in the 1 amp range or a bit higher is OK. Some laptops use "power bug" chips, an electronic fuse that uses a MOSFET to cut off power, and some of those work "precisely" at 500mA, to the annoyance of the user sitting at the laptop. And that's one reason Intel provided that application note about how to design USB interfaces, so people would not lose sight of the intended purpose of cutting off the power. Laptops don't use Polyfuses, due to the lack of ventilation inside the machine, and the electronic fuse (even if it costs a bit more), is a much more precise device with fewer drawbacks. All except for "enforcing" the wrong value :-) Paul |
#18
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Keyboard problem
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote: Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... OK, next question. Do any of these subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ? The external HD has an LED ndicator that works Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses for the +5V supply. A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers. A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port (+5V). And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too. However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse. A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each). The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out when inspecting a PCB. http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png ******* A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active material "melts" if too much current is drawn. When the power is off again, the material cools off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal conducts electricity). This means that normally the fuse resets itself. There is nothing to replace (normally). You can check your ports with a multimeter, but this is difficult to do without some deal of care so you don't short something out while working on it. An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving the fuse is still closed. A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp, a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present. I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above is a hint about what to look for. A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp, so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have a decently low resistance across the terminals when cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just to make the results more predictable. (There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse, which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.) Some of this is addressed in this document, written by Intel to help motherboard designers during the USB2 era. https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...usb.org:80/dev elopers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's good enough at this point. For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA, just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this would be a good test for power availability. A typical ATX power supply, can only run about five of these, as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a 2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a Walmart or not. http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html Paul -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#19
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in news KenK wrote: Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping... OK, next question. Do any of these subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ? The external HD has an LED ndicator that works You can use BIOS settings, to completely disable the USB subsystem (from functioning, not from lighting the LED necessarily). In the USB2 era, there was a separate page in the BIOS screen, with all sorts of stuff for USB. Including the ability to turn stuff off. In cases where you've hopelessly damaged the BIOS settings, you can use the Clear_CMOS jumper to start over again. You do that with the power cable pulled from the computer (as the Clear_CMOS jumper can burn a little ORing diode if you leave the computer powered). But beware. On some computers that you find in the junk pile, the internal graphics are damaged. If you reset the BIOS on these older computers, they default to selecting the internal graphics, and they won't use the video card right away. And you have to be able to see the screen, to set the BIOS to using the add-in video card. Machines with internal graphics which are non-operational, then you cannot afford to reset the BIOS. If you use the Clear_CMOS jumper on such machines, you end up locked out. You have to know a bit about the equipment you're working on, to have some idea whether this is a possible outcome. The two machines I use in the room today here, don't have this as a possible outcome, and I should always be able to recover them. That makes it possible to pretty well completely lock yourself out of the computer. You have to be born unlucky for that to happen, but it has happened to posters visiting USENET. If you can get some sort of keyboard working, even if it's PS/2, you can take a look in the BIOS settings. And see if something was turned off by accident. On motherboards with USB1.1 ports from the Southbridge, and USB2 ports from a NEC add-on USB chip, the NEC ports don't work right away at BIOS level. And you use the USB1.1 ports for the keyboard, if you expect to use the USB keyboard in the BIOS. However, the keyboard will work on the NEC chip, once the OS boots. Maybe you might see this on a year 2005 computer or so. The Southbridge USB ports, generally always have full support at BIOS level. Add-on chips outside of that, don't have code modules to help them at BIOS level. However, I think my newest machine, it does boot from a NEC USB3 chip which sits outside the Southbridge. But the older computers, like year 2005, the support was much poorer back then. Once the OS comes up, they should all work. WinXP has USB2 drivers at least. For USB3 add-on cards, you'd need to use the driver disc, to have the OS recognize the ports. Windows 7 suffers the same fate. Windows 8 and Windows 10 have USB3 drivers in-box. Paul |
#20
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Keyboard problem
On 8 Dec 2017 17:34:08 GMT, KenK wrote:
We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may well be some interaction between the two. I'm going to forgot about that problem - for now anyway. The PS/2 keyboards are very old and I just wanted something to use until I could buy a new one. Hopefuly one that works! -- It sounds like you have a sledge hammer keyboard. Lay it on your lawn and use a sledge hammer on it. I've done that several times with keyboards that dont work, or the keys stick. You can buy new keyboards on ebay for as little as $7. They are just basic keyboards, which is what I like. I dont need lots of extra keys and I'd never use them anyhow. Personally, I use PS/2 kbds because I run Win98 and sometimes Dos. USB keyboards dont work on Dos and may not work on 98 either. I can use the USB ones on my XP machine, but I see no reason to waste a USB port on a keyboard. I never have enough USB ports as it is, when I start transferring stuff to multiple flash drives. My computers have PS/2 connectors for kebd and mouse, so why not use them. |
#21
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote in
: Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that company but it works! -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#22
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Keyboard problem
On 11 Dec 2017 18:23:08 GMT, KenK wrote:
I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that company but it works! As long as it works, you got it made..... Most keyboards work, it's just how long they work before the keys start to stick or fail.... I had one keyboard that worked almost forever, but the letters wore off the keys. I kept writing them back with a magic marker, but that only lasted a week or so. I finally just replaced it. |
#23
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@
130.133.4.11: KenK wrote in : Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that company but it works! Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though. Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh -- I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook. |
#24
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Keyboard problem
KenK wrote:
KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@ 130.133.4.11: KenK wrote in : Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that company but it works! Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though. Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh WinXP has the nice feature, that every attempt is logged in SetupAPI.log. Later OSes don't seem to log nearly as well. Each entry has a date stamp, and they really should have put a blank line before [...] to make that stand out. C:\Windows\SetupAPI.log [2017/12/06 09:13:35 2256.449] #-198 Command line processed: "C:\WINDOWS\system32\mmc.exe" "C:\WINDOWS\system32\devmgmt.msc" #-166 Device install function: DIF_PROPERTYCHANGE. #I292 Changing device properties of "USBSTOR\DISK&VEN_SANDISK&PROD_EXTREME&REV_0001\AA 011026152124362907&0". #I309 DICS_STOP: Device has been stopped. #-166 Device install function: DIF_PROPERTYCHANGE. #I292 Changing device properties of "USBSTOR\DISK&VEN_SANDISK&PROD_EXTREME&REV_0001\AA 011026152124362907&0". #I306 DICS_START: Device has been started. Each stanza tells a story. Devices with multiple "layers", you'll see date stamps within seconds of one another, as the layers install. The only thing that really interferes with HID drivers, is a filter driver for a touchpad. Some of them, have insufficiently precise Plug And Play info, they "match to everything" and can prevent input from happening. Another kind of filter driver might be a keylogger. And a question would be, how do we eject stuff like this ? It's one thing to remove the ENUM tree and let the OS rediscover the hardware. But that doesn't solve the problem of drivers "hiding in wait" to jump on the hardware when it is discovered. And I don't know how to fix that. Paul |
#25
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Keyboard problem
On 13 Dec 2017 13:49:39 GMT, KenK wrote:
KenK wrote in news:XnsA84873D423CF0invalidcom@ 130.133.4.11: KenK wrote in : Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work? The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick worse. TIA I finally got a new keyboard, an Onn from Walmart. Never heard of that company but it works! Having system problem with new keyboard. The Windows XP New Hardware Install Wizard keeps returning. Keyboard does seem to work ok though. Wizard finally says it may not work. sigh Microsoft must have spent years and paid out millions of dollars to hire people, who did nothing but find ways to annoy, irritate, and **** off it's customers. If they had spent half that time, money and effort into making Windows work properly without all the annoyances, they could have not only created much better operating systems, but saved a lot of wasted time and money. Not ot mention having a more favorable reputation. It never ceases to amaze me how windows will insist on something that is not needed, and will pester the user for eternity over some trivial nonsense that is not even needed. The keyboard is working, but for all eternity, you will be annoyed by this bull****, unless you do something about it, and waste many hours trying to fix something that is not even broken. It's no different with those ****ing "System Volume Information" files that are created on every flash drive, portable Hard Drive and damn near everything else I plug into my XP computers. I have all of System Restore completely disabled, yet XP insists on putting those worthless SVI files on everything it touches. It's like "What part of the word *NO* dont you understand?". I would not mind so much of they were just on my installed Hard drives, but putting that **** on every portable drive is annoying as hell. And Windows wont let me delete them. I can delete them on my Win98 computer, or boot to linux and remove them, or probably even remove them from Dos, but why bother. As soon as I plug into XP, they will return, and keep doing so for eternity..... I always thought that MS has persons working there who just work there, because they want to torture people with their annoyances.... I can only guess these people hate humanity and it makes them get an erection to create these things that torture everyone who touches a computer. It must be some psychotic urge to make them feel like they have power, because in real life they are social losers. |
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