What needs to be done to make Logitech/Microsoft wireless mice work?

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:33:58 +0000, RS Wood wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:06:15 -0000, Kerr Mudd-John
wrote:

Do you normally turn these mice off each night manually, or do you
just let them go to sleep on their own?

Get rechargeable ones, then not so much to worry about.

I have rechargeable batteries.

The crappy Lithium ones that Costco sells.

I suspect you meant to say NiMH

Enviro brand I think they're called. Blue paper labels.

Sounds like the low self discharge variety of NiMH


I'll see if they work since the voltage is lower and the internal
impedance is lower, which means they "might" not work as well as
Alkaline batteries do.

That describes NiMH rather than Lithium technology 1.2v (end of
discharge point) versus 3.6v of a *single* Lithium rechargeable cell.


The lithium batteries will put out more current (because of the lower
internal impedance) but for a mouse, more current isn't needed. They
will last long in storage, probably as long as the Alkaline ones last,
so, that means they'll keep their charge over time if the mouse is
unused.

Lithium cells are low impedance and capable of holding their charge for
years if a pair of cells recovered from a scrapped laptop battery a few
years ago is any guide. However, they're not available in AAA or AA
sizes. The Lithium primary cells supplied in a package that looks like a
pair of AA cells glued together intended as a drop in alternative to the
pair of AA cells in a camera are actually just a single 3.2v cell.


The differentiator will likely be whether the lower voltage will work
(it generally does for most things, but not all things).

Battery powered kit, if properly designed to be powered from batteries
made up of 1.5v cells, is normally intended to keep working until the
voltage per cell drops down to 1 volt. Since NiMH and NiCad still have an
open circuit voltage of 1.2v when completely discharged and the mouse, as
you surmised, is a low drain application, there oughtn't be any problem
using Eneloop or their equivilent (usually sold as pre-charged "Ready for
Use" NiMH cells).

--
Johnny B Good

In message , Johnny B Good
writes:
[]
Lithium cells are low impedance and capable of holding their charge for
years if a pair of cells recovered from a scrapped laptop battery a few
years ago is any guide. However, they're not available in AAA or AA
sizes. The Lithium primary cells supplied in a package that looks like a
pair of AA cells glued together intended as a drop in alternative to the
pair of AA cells in a camera are actually just a single 3.2v cell.
[]
Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Humans landed on the moon before we put wheels on our luggage.

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.


I have a couple of strings of solar-powered LED christmas lights. They
use 3.2V lithium iron polymer cells that come in AA size. From what I
found on the internet, a lot of devices use 4/5AA size but these take
full AA.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)


--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me,
it is the parts that I do understand." -- Mark Twain

Mark Lloyd wrote in news:y6umA.11574$1w1.2394
@fx35.iad:

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.

Besides the lithium primary cells that are direct replacements for AA and
AAA cells, there are Li-Ion rechargeable cells available in the AA
(14500) and AAA(10440) form factors. They are 3.7 volt nominal, which
means fully charged they provide 4.2v, and drop to around 3.0v as they
are used. This means that if they were used as direct replacements for
alkaline cells the device they were placed in would quickly cease to
function unless it was designed to use either voltage, like some
flashlights are. I have successfully used a single 14500 cell and a dummy
cell to replace two AA cells, but was taking a risk in doing so. Throw in
the need for proper rechargers and the more extensive safety requirements
of Li-Ion cells, and it just makes sense to use Lithium primaries
instead. I refuse to use alkaline cells in any of my devices due to their
tendency to leak and destroy whatever they have been placed in.

And yes, while decent alkaline cells can be found for fifty cents each,
while primary lithium cells start at a little over a dollar each with
judicial shopping, the lithium cells usually have double the lifetime of
alkaline cells as well as better temperature operating ranges. To me the
slight additional cost taking all that into affect is a cheap premium to
pay for guaranteed lack of leakage.

FYI, there is a cell available that is Li-Ion, but contains circuitry to
provide 1.5v output, but it has not proven itself in the marketplace yet,
and has not gained market acceptance.

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:02:21 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.


I have a couple of strings of solar-powered LED christmas lights. They
use 3.2V lithium iron polymer cells that come in AA size. From what I
found on the internet, a lot of devices use 4/5AA size but these take
full AA.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)


I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some now
defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2 AA, at
a time).

I've changed the header, as we've veered off mice.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:02:21 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.


I have a couple of strings of solar-powered LED christmas lights. They
use 3.2V lithium iron polymer cells that come in AA size. From what I
found on the internet, a lot of devices use 4/5AA size but these take
full AA.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)


I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some now
defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2 AA, at
a time).

I've changed the header, as we've veered off mice.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

Kerr Mudd-John wrote:
On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:02:21 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.


I have a couple of strings of solar-powered LED christmas lights. They
use 3.2V lithium iron polymer cells that come in AA size. From what I
found on the internet, a lot of devices use 4/5AA size but these take
full AA.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)


I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some
now defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2
AA, at a time).

I've changed the header, as we've veered off mice.


That battery is from a garden light.

http://batteriesplus.co.uk/acatalog/...ar_Lights.html

*******

Check the "temperament" of the chemistry first.
LiFePO4 is lower specific energy than LiCoO2.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/lea...of_lithium_ion

Then look at a typical CC-CV charging method.

Notice that the various chemistries use radically different
voltage endpoints.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

And that means, you need the "right" charger for the job. And
in a quick search, I'm not seeing one. That doesn't mean
a programmable charger couldn't do it, or maybe a custom
design you made at home in your basement. If I was building
a charger for that, I'd probably just implement the CC
portion, avoid the CV, and fill the battery to 70-80%
full each time.

There are plenty of precision charger chips, if you're bored
and want to do it right. And the nice thing about this
chemistry (if there is a "nice thing"), is it doesn't
use dV/dt like the chemistries we used before Lithium ion.
Those were a bitch - the dV/dt endpoint is quite small, and you
need a safety timer, just in case you miss the endpoint...

Paul

"Kerr Mudd-John" wrote:

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 01:02:21 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 02/07/2017 03:50 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

Actually, they _are_ available in AA size - I work on a product that
uses one. Not _widely_ available, because I presume of the fact that
they _are_ (slightly more than) double the voltage, and the
manufacturers don't want people getting hold of them and putting them
into ordinary AA holders and damaging things.


I have a couple of strings of solar-powered LED christmas lights. They
use 3.2V lithium iron polymer cells that come in AA size. From what I
found on the internet, a lot of devices use 4/5AA size but these take
full AA.

(I agree, the person you were replying to almost certainly meant NiMH.)


I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some now
defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2 AA, at
a time).

I've changed the header, as we've veered off mice.

https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Two-1.../dp/B00FYMPSGA

https://www.amazon.com/BUNDLE-Niteco.../dp/B00YFK85B2

https://www.amazon.com/Nitecore-Digi.../dp/B00KW2ZDHQ

HTH

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 16:50:53 -0000, Paul wrote:

Kerr Mudd-John wrote:
[]

I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some
now defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2
AA, at a time).
I've changed the header, as we've veered off mice.


That battery is from a garden light.

http://batteriesplus.co.uk/acatalog/...ar_Lights.html

*******
Yes!

[]
And that means, you need the "right" charger for the job. And
in a quick search, I'm not seeing one. That doesn't mean
[]

Ah well it's not that important to me. Maybe I could just stick it in
another solar light (100 LED string) and hope for the best?!



--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug

On 31/01/2017 11:33, RS Wood wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:06:15 -0000, Kerr Mudd-John wrote:

Do you normally turn these mice off each night manually, or do you just
let
them go to sleep on their own?

Get rechargeable ones, then not so much to worry about.

I have rechargeable batteries.

The crappy Lithium ones that Costco sells.
Enviro brand I think they're called. Blue paper labels.

I'll see if they work since the voltage is lower and the internal impedance
is lower, which means they "might" not work as well as Alkaline batteries
do.

They lithium batteries will put out more current (because of the lower
internal impedance) but for a mouse, more current isn't needed. They will
last long in storage, probably as long as the Alkaline ones last, so, that
means they'll keep their charge over time if the mouse is unused.

The differentiator will likely be whether the lower voltage will work (it
generally does for most things, but not all things).


They can't be Lithium.

There are no rechargeable Lithium with less that about 3.6 volts per cell.

Are you sure they're not NiMH.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On 03/02/2017 14:20, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , knuttle
escribió:

I to am using a wired mouse, as in my experience the wireless have to
have their batteries replaced about once every three or four weeks.

Oh, how *awful*. You poor dear.


Idiot.

He didn't say anything about it being a problem.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On 08/02/2017 11:01, Kerr Mudd-John wrote:
I have one grey 3,2V 250mAh "14500" AA sized battery that was in some
now defunct toy. I don't know how to charge it! (my std charger needs 2
AA, at a time).

Don't try to charge it unless you very carefully investigate the charger
parameters needed to charge it safely and get a charger that will
definitely not try to charge it too quickly or to overcharge it.

If you get it wrong it could explode.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

Brian Gregory wrote:
On 31/01/2017 11:33, RS Wood wrote:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017 11:06:15 -0000, Kerr Mudd-John
wrote:

Do you normally turn these mice off each night manually, or do you just
let
them go to sleep on their own?

Get rechargeable ones, then not so much to worry about.

I have rechargeable batteries.

The crappy Lithium ones that Costco sells.
Enviro brand I think they're called. Blue paper labels.

I'll see if they work since the voltage is lower and the internal
impedance
is lower, which means they "might" not work as well as Alkaline batteries
do.

They lithium batteries will put out more current (because of the lower
internal impedance) but for a mouse, more current isn't needed. They will
last long in storage, probably as long as the Alkaline ones last, so,
that
means they'll keep their charge over time if the mouse is unused.

The differentiator will likely be whether the lower voltage will work (it
generally does for most things, but not all things).


They can't be Lithium.

There are no rechargeable Lithium with less that about 3.6 volts per cell.

Are you sure they're not NiMH.


BatteryUniversity has some examples.

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/lea...of_lithium_ion

LiCoO2 3.60V nominal, charges to 4.20V (most cells)
LiFePO4 3.2V nominal, charges to 3.65V
Li4Ti5O12 2.40V nominal, charges to 2.85V

LiFePO4 is used in solar-powered garden lights. Probably
for the low rate of self-discharge.

HTH,
Paul

En el artículo , Brian
Gregory escribió:

He didn't say anything about it being a problem.

He did, in fact. He said he went back to using a wired mouse because
the batteries in the wireless one "only" lasted three to four weeks,
which is ludicrous.

Try working on your English comprehension, and have a doctor look at
that nasty knee-jerk reaction.

Idiot.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) systemd: the Linux version of Windows 10
(")_(")

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 05:46:31 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , Brian
Gregory escribió:

He didn't say anything about it being a problem.

He did, in fact. He said he went back to using a wired mouse because
the batteries in the wireless one "only" lasted three to four weeks,
which is ludicrous.

Try working on your English comprehension, and have a doctor look at
that nasty knee-jerk reaction.

Idiot.

PLONK