Power-Cycling Windows 7 PC: Pitfalls?

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
often enough to warrant the cost of replacement. Besides, back then,
the standing mantra of tech support when there were Windows problems was
to perform a reboot. In this case, the problem was with hardware and
[]
That is still the standard mantra of tech support today - and I suspect
will remain so! To be fair, it _does_ solve a lot of problems - but it
also gets the "customer" off the responder's back for a few minutes.
(And, lately, where [A]DSL MoDems are concerned, they can
semi-legitimately say "leave it off for half an hour".)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
Is it your server or the homeowners? If they are merely letting you put
your PC on their premises then I don't see the issue with you changing
the setup of your PC to add a scheduled task to run shutdown.exe about 5
to 10 minutes before you configure a BIOS alarm to power up the PC.
You'll also have to configure the BIOS to boot when powered is restored
and use an auto-login Windows account (which you would also have to do
with your proposed Rube Goldberg solution).

When his remote system "goes weird", I suspect there's a strong
probability that it won't be "in the mood" for running scheduled tasks.
(And if it hasn't shut down, the BIOS alarm to power it up probably
won't work.)

As for all those saying "find the cause of the problem and fix it",
although I agree in principle, there are limits to how much time can be
spent - especially if (though the OP hasn't said this is the case) the
weirdness only happens in that location, where he's relying on the
goodwill of the homeowner. [It sounds as if it may be a very complex
cause, involving interaction between many pieces of hardware - the PC,
the MoDem, the cameras, ... - and if it only happens very infrequently,
such as days or even weeks, ...] I would assume the OP has spent up to
his practical limit of time, trying to sort the fault before considering
the unplug-it scenario he's asking us about. (We all have such practical
limits - even more so if it's a commercial situation.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 15:31:26 -0800, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 2/9/2017 3:16 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per CRNG:

That's a controlled shutdown rather than "pulling the plug".

That's what I am talking about: "Pulling the plug".... Wasn't thinking
so much about hardware exposure as System exposu how well Windows 7
deals with just having the plug yanked.


I strongly suspect that "pulling the plug" does no damage to Windows but
can cause extreme damage to the hardware. Actually, the damage can be
caused if there is a voltage spike when power is restored. The hardware
damage can appear to be software damage.

My experience with a failed router (cited earlier in this thread) shows
that even a surge suppressor does not necessarily protect your hardware.

It is worth remembering that many a surge suppressor works by self
sacrifice.

So the next surge after one that kills the suppressor is going to get
into the hardware.....

Any time when SoCalEd fails while my PC is running, I immediate shut
off the surge suppressor for my PC, monitor, and printer and unplug my
modem and router (their separate surge suppressor does not have an "off"
switch). When power is restored and I turn everything back on, I run
memory and disc checks to see if my hardware is okay. SoCalEd fails
sufficiently often that I now have a list of clocks and other devices
that must be reset and those that must be at least checked.
Stephen Hope
Replace xyz with ntl to reply

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 13:28:12 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

As for all those saying "find the cause of the problem and fix it",
although I agree in principle, there are limits to how much time can be
spent - especially if (though the OP hasn't said this is the case) the
weirdness only happens in that location, where he's relying on the
goodwill of the homeowner. [It sounds as if it may be a very complex
cause, involving interaction between many pieces of hardware - the PC,
the MoDem, the cameras, ... - and if it only happens very infrequently,
such as days or even weeks, ...] I would assume the OP has spent up to
his practical limit of time, trying to sort the fault before considering
the unplug-it scenario he's asking us about. (We all have such practical
limits - even more so if it's a commercial situation.)

I didn't think it was possible to cram that many assumptions into such a
small space. ;-)

But seriously, none of this stuff is magic, although I work with people
every day for whom it apparently is exactly that. It's extremely rare
that a situation can't be diagnosed logically and methodically in order
to find the root cause of an issue. Throwing money at it, or as someone
said earlier, turning it into a Rube Goldberg device, isn't prone to
providing long term satisfaction.

--

Char Jackson

Per Stephen:
It is worth remembering that many a surge suppressor works by self
sacrifice.

So the next surge after one that kills the suppressor is going to get
into the hardware.....

When I was looking into a Whole House surge protector, that's what put
me off: it seemed like sub-critical surges over time would slowly erode
the protector, but I would never know how much or when.... so eventually
the house would revert to being unprotected.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Char Jackson:
Notably absent from the conversation so far is any mention of actually
resolving the issue that causes things to "get weird". I guess we're
different. :-)

Different in the sense that I am pretty much clueless - but we have had
a fellow enthusiast (this is a windsurfing site that the cams serve) who
made enough money installing/maintaining big systems to fly first-class
everywhere he goes spend some hours reviewing WireShark dumps and come
up empty-handed.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per VanguardLH:
So why not get the web switch suggested and start with a working product
rather than build something from a Raspberry Pi and a relay and hope
that works?

- Cost looks about the same

- We have an identical solution in place at the other
end of the radio link (to reboot the link, local switch,
and cams) and it has worked for a couple years now.

- I've been through one other "Working Product" and it had
a fatal flaw not apparent in the specs...

- The Pi also offers up the prospect of flexibility: we can
implement other behaviors as needed/desired.

- In a (perhaps) perverse way, it's kind of entertaining to fool
around Pi-based solutions.... -)
--
Pete Cresswell

Per Java Jive:
Has the OP tried to log in to
the PC remotely and viewing the Event Viewer, Task Manager, Registry
startup entries, etc?

Chicken-and-egg problem: when it gets weird, TeamViewer becomes
unavailable..... and the site is 100 miles away.
--
Pete Cresswell

Per J. P. Gilliver (John):
that location, where he's relying on the
goodwill of the homeowner. [It sounds as if it may be a very complex
cause, involving interaction between many pieces of hardware - the PC,
the MoDem, the cameras, ... - and if it only happens very infrequently,
such as days or even weeks, ...] I would assume the OP has spent up to
his practical limit of time, trying to sort the fault before considering
the unplug-it scenario...

Bingo !!!!! ... with emphasis on the practicalities of time &
money....

Although, in deference to Char, the OP has to agree that this setup does
have a large magical component (to the OP)..... but Greater Minds Than
The OP's have also found it opaque....
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:32:39 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Chicken-and-egg problem: when it gets weird, TeamViewer becomes
unavailable..... and the site is 100 miles away.

You don't need Teamviewer to view a remote registry, just use regedit
from within a full version of Windows. Ditto Event Log in Management,
which might tell you something useful about what caused the need to
reboot even after the reboot has occurred.
--
================================================== ======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 15:54:35 +0000, Stephen
wrote:


It is worth remembering that many a surge suppressor works by self
sacrifice.

So the next surge after one that kills the suppressor is going to get
into the hardware.....



Most surge suppressors people buy cost around $10-15. These are hardly
anything more than fancy extension cords, and provide little or no
protection even when brand new. A real surge suppressor costs the
better part of $100. And better yet is a whole-house surge suppressor.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:24:44 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Stephen:
It is worth remembering that many a surge suppressor works by self
sacrifice.

So the next surge after one that kills the suppressor is going to get
into the hardware.....

When I was looking into a Whole House surge protector, that's what put
me off: it seemed like sub-critical surges over time would slowly erode
the protector, but I would never know how much or when.... so eventually
the house would revert to being unprotected.


I have a whole-house surge suppressor, and it has a little green light
that tells me it's working. If that goes off, it's no longer any good.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 11:32:39 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Java Jive:
Has the OP tried to log in to
the PC remotely and viewing the Event Viewer, Task Manager, Registry
startup entries, etc?

Chicken-and-egg problem: when it gets weird, TeamViewer becomes
unavailable..... and the site is 100 miles away.

Just one time, when it gets weird, it needs to stay weird until someone
can get there to troubleshoot it and fix it. Hard power cycling isn't a
fix. You've proven that in spades.

Can you move the PC 100 miles closer to you? You said the cams are IP
cams, which suggests that they can be anywhere in the world with a
network connection. Leave the cams where they are and bring the PC to
your house.

--

Char Jackson

Stephen wrote:

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017 15:31:26 -0800, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

On 2/9/2017 3:16 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per CRNG:

That's a controlled shutdown rather than "pulling the plug".

That's what I am talking about: "Pulling the plug".... Wasn't thinking
so much about hardware exposure as System exposu how well Windows 7
deals with just having the plug yanked.


I strongly suspect that "pulling the plug" does no damage to Windows but
can cause extreme damage to the hardware. Actually, the damage can be
caused if there is a voltage spike when power is restored. The hardware
damage can appear to be software damage.

My experience with a failed router (cited earlier in this thread) shows
that even a surge suppressor does not necessarily protect your hardware.

It is worth remembering that many a surge suppressor works by self
sacrifice.

So the next surge after one that kills the suppressor is going to get
into the hardware.....

Any time when SoCalEd fails while my PC is running, I immediate shut
off the surge suppressor for my PC, monitor, and printer and unplug my
modem and router (their separate surge suppressor does not have an "off"
switch). When power is restored and I turn everything back on, I run
memory and disc checks to see if my hardware is okay. SoCalEd fails
sufficiently often that I now have a list of clocks and other devices
that must be reset and those that must be at least checked.
Stephen Hope
Replace xyz with ntl to reply

True of the old models that use MOVs. Read the wiki article to which I
linked in a prior reply. There are types that redirect the surge and
others that absorb it and then slowly dissipate it.

Good surge suppressors aren't cheap but it's the cheap ones that
consumers buy because they cannot afford good ones or are unwilling to
get the good ones. They are looking for emotional assurance, not
electrical insurance.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

When his remote system "goes weird", I suspect there's a strong
probability that it won't be "in the mood" for running scheduled tasks.
(And if it hasn't shut down, the BIOS alarm to power it up probably
won't work.)

No mention of crashing or hanging in the OS. Not really any description
at all to indicate Task Scheduler and shutdown.exe won't work, and the
BIOS alarm is independent of any problems in a particular instance of
the OS that is loaded.

Doesn't sound like the OP wants to discuss the problem or invest further
resources to diagnosing the problem. He mentioned that some other
hardware needs a power reset, too, and there is no software that he can
get at to fix (and I doubt he has the means of extracting any firmware,
analyzing it, and then burning new EEPROMS assuming their is firmware
instead of just hardware components wired together). If your TV went
weird, just how are you going to alter the "software"? The end user
doesn't get a shell displayed on the screen in which to resolve
problems.

As someone else suggested, since he is using IP cameras, those can be
controlled from anywhere so the box running the OS and apps doesn't have
to be 100+ miles away from him. He's made no mention that the cable
modem, routers, or other network components at the remote site are what
go "weird" and need a power cycle.