Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

In message mn.7d6e7decf526d1f0.127094@snitoo, Snidely
writes:
Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

In the UK, I _think_ the cessation of the telegram service predated the
ending of the GPO (General Post Office) - BT (British Telecom)
monopoly. When it _was_ the monopoly, post offices were (I think!) where
you went to send a telegram. Since they were somewhat expensive, I think
most people rarely used them.

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

/dps

(Switched, as another has said.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

My daughter is appalled by it at all times, but you know you have to appal
your 14-year-old daughter otherwise you're not doing your job as a father. -
Richard Osman to Alison Graham, in Radio Times 2013-6-8 to 14

On 16.12.14 11:24, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , annily
writes:
[]
What I have in Australia (my "landline") sounds similar to your last
example. It's called TPG Home Phone and comes with TPG's ADSL Internet
service. It's provided over the old copper pair between your premises
and the exchange, where it's converted to a VOIP service. It appears
to you (and people who call the number) as a POTS, and it is charged
as such (i.e. it's the same price to call).

When you say it comes "with" the ADSL service, is that over the same
line? If so, then in UK, that would I think be normal 'phoneline plus
ADSL; all our analogue 'phones have been digital _from the exchange_ for
some years, but the customer wouldn't be able to tell that - they still
look like an analogue 'phone connection at the subscriber end. In the
last few years, they've been providing - optionally, at extra cost (and
"provided" by - i. e. billed by, at least - a different company) - ADSL
over the same line: you have to use a low and high pass filter at the
subscriber end, to keep the 'phone and ADSL signals from interfering
with each other. This would be a normal "landline".

Yes, it's over the same phone line (our services have been digital
between exchanges for quite a while as well). The only difference from a
"normal landline" service is that certain functions, such as
back-to-base alarms, are not supported. I only used "comes with" because
it's a bundled service, i.e. you can't get the TPG Home Phone without
their ADSL as well.

--
Lifelong resident of Adelaide, South Australia
"Talking to yourself is only a problem if you get a response you don't
understand".

In article ,
Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-16 6:39 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
In the UK, I _think_ the cessation of the telegram service predated the
ending of the GPO (General Post Office) - BT (British Telecom)
monopoly. When it _was_ the monopoly, post offices were (I think!) where
you went to send a telegram. Since they were somewhat expensive, I think
most people rarely used them.

"Somewhat expensive": a penny a word in the 1940s, that's about 10p a
word in today's money. At the same time you could post (mail) a postcard
for a penny, and a letter for two pence. That's why companies created
code words, each word standing for a sentence, eg, "contract has been
signed".

Peccavi.


IIRC, the railways operated the telegram service before the GPO took
over. I suspect it was more of a handover, as the telegram service
operated at a loss.

HTH

Immensely

--
charles

On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 09:07:06 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-16 12:36 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:08:55 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-15 8:39 PM, Robert Bannister wrote:
On 16/12/2014 6:22 am, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Steve Hayes
writes:
On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:04:54 +0000, Andy Burns

wrote:
[]
But when talking about Internet access I'd distinguish broadband over
coaxial cable (DOCSIS) and broadband over twisted pair cable
(ADSL/VDSL).

So would I, but I'd refer to both as a "landline".

I think, _within this context_, you're in a minority there.
[]
Not in my experience. I don't know what else "landline" would mean.

You would if you lived in N. America. ;-)

But he doesn't, and nor do I.

Also, one still sometuimes sees telephone wires like this,

http://dev.colacreative.com/wp-conte...-bluegreen.png

and though they are in pairs, they certainly aren't twisted.

All true, but only relevant if you are tech sent out to fix something.
In general usage, in N. America the words mean as I described them. If I
moved to Australia, I would suss out what words you use and what you
mean by them pretty quickly, I think. ;-)

So we have established that "landline" means something different and more
restricted to some people in North America from what it means in the rest of
the world.

But it also seems, from this discussion that even in North America *some*
people understand "landline" in the wider ROTW sense.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On 12/16/2014 12:07 PM, Whiskers wrote:
On 2014-12-15, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/12/14 17:54, Steve Hayes wrote:

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.

I almost agree with you, but not quite. I use "landline" to include the
entire PSTN. (Which means, approximately, that part of the telephone
system that does not include mobile (cell) phones.) Now (in my country,
but probably also in yours) that PSTN has a variety of intercity links,
including microwave links. The difference is that these are highly
directional station-to-station links, as distinct from "wireless" which
usually implies omnidirectional broadcasting.

For international connections, the PSTN uses undersea cables in some
cases, and satellite links in others. The latter are radio links, but
conventionally we do not describe them as "wireless" because they are
part of the PSTN. Informally, we consider them to be part of the
landline network, even if they don't travel over land.

Couldn't the term "Public Switched Telephone Network" include all
telephone-like services accessible to the general public? An
alternative term I've encountered that attempts to define only what
Alexander Graham Bell might recognise, is "Plain Old Telephone System"
(POST).

Plain Old Telephone _Service_.

Another way of distinguishing different systems might be to
categorise them as "digital" or "analogue" - but even wired analogue
telephone handsets are likely to have their connections carried over
digital networks at some point these days. There are also "Voice over
Internet Protocol" (VoIP) users whose handsets are connected by wires or
by optical cables rather than using radio signals.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Agreed, but I think that's obsolete terminology.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").

In Australia "a cable" is the twisted pair or the coaxial cable or
whatever that forms a wired link, and it's used that way by electrical
engineers. In the context of television, however, "cable" has a much
more specialised use. "Cable TV" is synonymous with "Pay TV", a set of
TV stations that you don't get unless you have a paid subscription. This
is in contrast with "Free-to-air TV", which is accessible to anyone who
has a TV set. "Cable TV" is also called "Fox TV", because a single
company has a monopoly.

In the UK, "cable TV" is often "optical cable"; many Plain Old Telephone
System users also have optical cable connecting them to the local
telephone exchange even if they still have copper wires from their
premises to the telco's 'cabinet'. Our telephone companies talk about
"fibre to the cabinet" (FTTC) and "fibre to the premises" (FTTP). Cable
TV (including telephone and internet options) is effectively monopolised
by Virgin Media.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To x
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:31:16 +0000, Dr Nick
wrote:

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

That is similar to the SAfE usage too.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Tue, 16 Dec 2014 20:23:35 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-16 6:39 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
In the UK, I _think_ the cessation of the telegram service predated the
ending of the GPO (General Post Office) - BT (British Telecom)
monopoly. When it _was_ the monopoly, post offices were (I think!) where
you went to send a telegram. Since they were somewhat expensive, I think
most people rarely used them.

"Somewhat expensive": a penny a word in the 1940s, that's about 10p a
word in today's money. At the same time you could post (mail) a postcard
for a penny, and a letter for two pence. That's why companies created
code words, each word standing for a sentence, eg, "contract has been
signed".

IIRC, the railways operated the telegram service before the GPO took
over. I suspect it was more of a handover, as the telegram service
operated at a loss.

HTH

There is still a form of telegram service in the UK. It is no longer
operated by BT.

The Telegrams Online service allows a telegram to be ordered/sent
online.
Products:
http://www.telegramsonline.co.uk/products.asp

Telegrams sent within the UK can be delivered by personal messenger or
by 1st class post. Choose the delivery method and speed, and pay
accordingly.
http://www.telegramsonline.co.uk/faq.asp#inf2

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

| So we have established that "landline" means something different and more
| restricted to some people in North America from what it means in the rest
of
| the world.
|
| But it also seems, from this discussion that even in North America *some*
| people understand "landline" in the wider ROTW sense.
|

Landline in the US is used by cellphone owners
to describe wired telephones. Cable means cable
TV and/or cable Internet. Broadband or highspeed
mean any Internet access except dial-up access,
known popularly as cable, DSL or satellite. Anything
else (including "twisted pair", which is a grossly
outdated expression describing in-house telephone
wire used mainly in the first half of the 20th century,
which was a pair of separate wires, llightly twisted
together) is only likely to be used by technicians and
people in some computer newsgroups.

Twisted pair only got used in the first place because
early DSL didn't work very well and required that houses
have old-style twisted-pair wiring in place, which had a
much thicker gauge copper than modern wiring. Before
that, twisted pair was known simply as, "Wow, your phones
wires are *really* old!"

The terms are that way because they developed that
way. Landline wasn't a relevant qualifier until people
started using cellphones as their only phone. (I say "wired
phone" if I need to differentiate. I think of landline as still
being a fairly recent hip slang usage, known mostly to
smartphone addicts.) Likewise, cable wasn't a relevant
qualifier until people had two ways to receive TV signals.

If those terms all seem wrong to you then there's a
simple solution: be more descriptive.

* annily:

On 16.12.14 11:24, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , annily
writes:
[]
What I have in Australia (my "landline") sounds similar to your last
example. It's called TPG Home Phone and comes with TPG's ADSL Internet
service. It's provided over the old copper pair between your premises
and the exchange, where it's converted to a VOIP service. It appears
to you (and people who call the number) as a POTS, and it is charged
as such (i.e. it's the same price to call).

When you say it comes "with" the ADSL service, is that over the same
line? If so, then in UK, that would I think be normal 'phoneline plus
ADSL; all our analogue 'phones have been digital _from the exchange_ for
some years, but the customer wouldn't be able to tell that - they still
look like an analogue 'phone connection at the subscriber end. In the
last few years, they've been providing - optionally, at extra cost (and
"provided" by - i. e. billed by, at least - a different company) - ADSL
over the same line: you have to use a low and high pass filter at the
subscriber end, to keep the 'phone and ADSL signals from interfering
with each other. This would be a normal "landline".

Yes, it's over the same phone line (our services have been digital
between exchanges for quite a while as well). The only difference from a
"normal landline" service is that certain functions, such as
back-to-base alarms, are not supported. I only used "comes with" because
it's a bundled service, i.e. you can't get the TPG Home Phone without
their ADSL as well.

That sounds like it is indeed VoIP.

--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.

* Mayayana:

The terms are that way because they developed that
way. Landline wasn't a relevant qualifier until people
started using cellphones as their only phone. (I say "wired
phone" if I need to differentiate. I think of landline as still
being a fairly recent hip slang usage, known mostly to
smartphone addicts.)

The telephone companies here distinguish "home phone" and
"mobile".

Likewise, cable wasn't a relevant
qualifier until people had two ways to receive TV signals.

But cable was the second way to receive TV signals. I assume
"cable" was always used to differentiate from terrestrial
(antenna): "It's on XYTV? Sorry, we don't have cable."

--
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is
to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies.
And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no
obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
-- C.*A.*R. Hoare

Oliver Cromm writes:

* Mayayana:

The terms are that way because they developed that
way. Landline wasn't a relevant qualifier until people
started using cellphones as their only phone. (I say "wired
phone" if I need to differentiate. I think of landline as still
being a fairly recent hip slang usage, known mostly to
smartphone addicts.)

The telephone companies here distinguish "home phone" and
"mobile".

Likewise, cable wasn't a relevant
qualifier until people had two ways to receive TV signals.

But cable was the second way to receive TV signals. I assume
"cable" was always used to differentiate from terrestrial
(antenna): "It's on XYTV? Sorry, we don't have cable."

These days in the UK we seem to have "terrestrial" (which comes through
the air) and "Sky" (which often comes down a cable buried in the
ground).

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:47:52 +0000, Dr Nick wrote:

These days in the UK we seem to have "terrestrial" (which comes through
the air) and "Sky" (which often comes down a cable buried in the
ground).

Finally a definition I can live with.

Actually, I really do like that. Life is too stuffy otherwise...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:13:58 UTC, Steve Hayes
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:31:16 +0000, Dr Nick
wrote:

Steve Hayes writes:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 23:10:53 -0800, Snidely wrote:

Just this Sunday, Steve Hayes puzzled about:

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless",

One of Nick Spalding's employers, no?

and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

Was there a _Public_ telegraph network? Or was it a private network
with offices where the public could pick up or drop off messages?

Or are you using 'P' for "Plain", as in the telephone usage?

What does the 'S' stand for?

PSTN is the Public Switched Telephone Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_...ephone_network

I only used the services of Cable & Wireless a couple of times in Hong Kong in
1985 when I wanted to phone home, and they had a bunch of public telephone
booths for that purpose.

The usage confusion seems to be that most people outside North America seem to
use "landline" to mean any telephone service that uses a wire or cable coming
to the house or other building where the instrument is located, as opposed to
a mobile phone that can be used in different locations wirelessly.

Some people in North America, however, seem to distinguish between "landline"
and "cable".

I think I'd (BrE) use "landline" /of a phone service/ to mean "has a
geographic number rather than a mobile one".

That is similar to the SAfE usage too.

And that's how I understand it in the US.

--
John Varela