Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 23:15:06 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 11:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 10:46:14 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 00:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:40:31 -0000, David wrote:

On 31/01/2020 22:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam
wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to
power
the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V
somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out where or
making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good
chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V
from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20
volts
at 5 amps.

You are 100% correct, no matter WHAT 'nospam' claims!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USB#/overview

Good reference material there!

HTH

Nospam is Rod Speed, an Aussie. They're a bit backwards over there.

THAT explains a lot! ;-)

So does this ......

https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/c..._to_rod_speed/


ROFL! And I then got distracted reading about some Aussie cyclist
moaning because a car dared to overtake him. FFS the car left him about
a metre gap. You won't get that if I'm driving.

I get distracted too - that's half the fun of playing on Usenet! ;-)

Have you ever been involved in a road traffic accident?

Yes, and it was usually a woman doing something stupid. "My foot slipped off the clutch" indeed.

On 02/02/2020 00:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 23:15:06 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 11:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 10:46:14 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 00:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:40:31 -0000, David
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 22:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam
wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to
power
the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with.* There's maybe 12V
somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out
where or
making a
hole in the case to access it.* I thought there was a good
chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered?* The caddy could take the 5V
from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB.* Some USB can give 20
volts
at 5 amps.

You are 100% correct, no matter WHAT 'nospam' claims!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USB#/overview

Good reference material there!

HTH

Nospam is Rod Speed, an Aussie.* They're a bit backwards over there.

THAT explains a lot! ;-)

So does this ......

https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/c..._to_rod_speed/



ROFL!* And I then got distracted reading about some Aussie cyclist
moaning because a car dared to overtake him.* FFS the car left him about
a metre gap.* You won't get that if I'm driving.

I get distracted too - that's half the fun of playing on Usenet! ;-)

Have you ever been involved in a road traffic accident?

Yes, and it was usually a woman doing something stupid. "My foot slipped
off the clutch" indeed.

"usually" eh? So you've had MORE than one then??!!! ;-)

No personal injury to you I hope.

--
David

In article , Snit
wrote:

the y-cables are for bus-powered laptop drives and standard usb ports,
which can source up to 500ma. by using a y-cable to connect two usb
ports, the drive can theoretically get 1000ma, or 1a, enough to spin it
up (idle doesn't need as much).

You're talking about USB 1 for some reason.

nope. usb 2, not that it matters since both have the same power specs.

Wow, they didn't bother increasing the power? Ridiculous. But most
manufacturers made them much higher current anyway, because by the time we
had USB 2, people wanted to charge phones faster than 500mA.

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

No. There were many things other than USB 2. For example, if you ordered
a hard chicken taco it could come with a shell, lettuce, tomato,
chicken, a sauce and maybe more. But never USB 2.





Just being silly, of course.

no, you're just being argumentative.

however, if you want to play those games, chew on this:
https://www.foodbeast.com/news/heres...e-packet-that-
doubles-as-a-usb-drive/

or, if you prefer sushi:
http://www.toxel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/flashdrive02.jpg

note that they're all usb-a.

there's also this:
https://leonh619.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/hyper_taco.jpg

On 2/1/20 6:00 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , Snit
wrote:

the y-cables are for bus-powered laptop drives and standard usb ports,
which can source up to 500ma. by using a y-cable to connect two usb
ports, the drive can theoretically get 1000ma, or 1a, enough to spin it
up (idle doesn't need as much).

You're talking about USB 1 for some reason.

nope. usb 2, not that it matters since both have the same power specs.

Wow, they didn't bother increasing the power? Ridiculous. But most
manufacturers made them much higher current anyway, because by the time we
had USB 2, people wanted to charge phones faster than 500mA.

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

No. There were many things other than USB 2. For example, if you ordered
a hard chicken taco it could come with a shell, lettuce, tomato,
chicken, a sauce and maybe more. But never USB 2.





Just being silly, of course.

no, you're just being argumentative.

What an ironic argument for you to make!

however, if you want to play those games, chew on this:

Sounds like you wish me to play with my food.

https://www.foodbeast.com/news/heres...e-packet-that-
doubles-as-a-usb-drive/

That helps me with ideas for the Feast Of Legends game I am running.
Thank you!

I am modifying it greatly.

or, if you prefer sushi:
http://www.toxel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/flashdrive02.jpg

I have seen those.

note that they're all usb-a.

there's also this:
https://leonh619.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/hyper_taco.jpg

LOL!

That might show up in my game as well, though only some of the players
are techie enough to understand.

Thanks. Sincerely appreciate it.


--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On 1/31/2020 11:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

What the **** does that even mean?

Frank wrote:
On 1/31/2020 11:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

What the **** does that even mean?

+-----------------------+
| X 3.3V
| Laptop 2.5" bay X GND
| X 5.0V
| X GND
| X 12V === no 12V available on this pin
|
| Y Data
| Y Connector
| Y Contacts
+-----------------------+

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HB4Mc.gif

*******

On desktops, sometimes you *don't* want power on
the 3.3V set of pins. This is because some drives
have implemented the "disable" pin, a logic signal
that takes the place of one of the 3.3V supply pins.
If you run into that, use a Molex four wire to SATA
adapter cable (which has no 3.3V supply provision),
and the high capacity 3.5" drive should then begin to work.

Alternate definitions of the power pins are shown he

https://pinoutguide.com/Power/sata-power_pinout.shtml

So far, the 3.3V rail was only used on some microSATA
products. And since the connector would be wrong
for a laptop, there's really no reason for 3.3V to be
wired up in the above diagram either. The 3.3V pin was
placed there, with the thinking that operation of 3.3V
flash SSDs was just around the corner and would be needed
almost immediately. Maybe some day they will become
serious about bringing that back (3.3V SSDs).

Paul

On 2/1/20 6:04 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

usb-a first appeared about 25 years ago and is just about everywhere
now, not just computers, but also in cars, mains outlets, furniture and
much more.

I have a couple of clocks with USB-A ports.

usb-c first appeared about 4-5 years ago and has a *long* way to go to
catch up.

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." [Voltaire]

On 2/1/20 6:14 PM, Snit wrote:

[snip]

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

No. There were many things other than USB 2. For example, if you ordered
a hard chicken taco it could come with a shell, lettuce, tomato,
chicken, a sauce and maybe more. But never USB 2.






Just being silly, of course.


Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a DB25
connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the robot).

--
" DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me offensive,
inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it. If you don't know how to
ignore a posting, complain to me and I will demonstrate."

On 2/2/20 10:44 AM, Sam E wrote:
On 2/1/20 6:14 PM, Snit wrote:

[snip]

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

No. There were many things other than USB 2. For example, if you
ordered a hard chicken taco it could come with a shell, lettuce,
tomato, chicken, a sauce and maybe more. But never USB 2.






Just being silly, of course.


Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a DB25
connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the robot).


Sounds familiar -- plugs in heads at least. I think Dark Mirror even did
that.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:44:42 -0000, Sam E wrote:

On 2/1/20 6:14 PM, Snit wrote:

[snip]

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

No. There were many things other than USB 2. For example, if you ordered
a hard chicken taco it could come with a shell, lettuce, tomato,
chicken, a sauce and maybe more. But never USB 2.






Just being silly, of course.


Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a DB25
connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the robot).

I got those mixed up once. DB25 was used for parallel and serial. If you connected the wrong one, you shorted the power from the motherboard and killed it instantly.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:41:38 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/1/20 6:04 PM, nospam wrote:

[snip]

usb-a first appeared about 25 years ago and is just about everywhere
now, not just computers, but also in cars, mains outlets, furniture and
much more.

I have a couple of clocks with USB-A ports.

usb-c first appeared about 4-5 years ago and has a *long* way to go to
catch up.

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

The micro **** should never have been invented. I wonder how many phones are thrown away because the flimsy charging socket has broken.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 00:04:20 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fa4wuxhwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V
from
USB
and convert it up to 12V.

3.5" drives need more current than a usb port can provide.

I've seen a drive with two USB plugs for that very reason.

that's not the reason.

the y-cables are for bus-powered laptop drives and standard usb ports,
which can source up to 500ma. by using a y-cable to connect two usb
ports, the drive can theoretically get 1000ma, or 1a, enough to spin it
up (idle doesn't need as much).

You're talking about USB 1 for some reason.

nope. usb 2, not that it matters since both have the same power specs.

Wow, they didn't bother increasing the power? Ridiculous. But most
manufacturers made them much higher current anyway, because by the time we
had USB 2, people wanted to charge phones faster than 500mA.

the usb 2 spec was approved in 2000 and appeared on hardware shortly
thereafter. by 2001 or 2002, pretty much everything was usb 2.

charging phones and other devices became common many years later,
starting in the late 2000s, and much more so in the early 2010s when
smartphones and tablets became ubiquitous, the latter of which *really*
needs more than 500ma.

The original British Telecom USB modem for broadband needed 570mA. It was out of spec and ****ed up on so many computers....

No machine made in the last
decade is limited to 500mA per port.

some still do, although not many.

It would have to be really cheap ****.

yep, and there are such products.

some people even seek them out.

Why deliberately look for cheap ****?

due to the popularity of bus-powered laptop drives and people wanting
to charge smartphones, tablets and other devices, usb ports began to
source more power than they were required to, as much as 2 amps,
eliminating the need for a y-cable (which was never a good idea to
begin with).

It worked perfectly, why do you say it was a bad idea?

it doesn't work perfectly in every case, it's non-compliant with the
usb spec and it's basically a hack that risks potential damage to the
host and peripheral.

Bull****. It just means it can take twice th current. It would be the same
as wiring a stove to two 13A plugs. You now have 26A.

host ports are not designed to be connected together and it's also
non-compliant with the spec.

https://compliance.usb.org/index.asp?UpdateFile=Policies#72
Use of a 'Y' cable (a cable with two A-plugs) is prohibited on any
USB peripheral. If a USB peripheral requires more power than allowed
by the USB specification to which it is designed, then it must be
self-powered.

Whyever not? All you're doing is connecting two grounds together and two 5V together. That means you can total 1 amp. Just like connecting two batteries in parallel doubles the capacity/amperage.

even if the port sources 5v!2a (which is not guaranteed on all
computers), it's still not enough to spin up a 3.5" drive

A 12 year old desktop HDD (3.5") that I have lying on my desk (the one I
plugged into the offending laptop) uses 0.5A @ 12V and 0.45A at 5V, this
equates to 8.25W, or less than the 5Vx2A = 10W that you just specified.
And
that's an old and presumably inefficient drive.

10w is not guaranteed on all hosts. most can source 1a (5w), however,
that too is also not guaranteed.

If it's in the USB spec, the socket must be able to provide it.

the usb spec guarantees only 100ma.

That's a stupid rule. USB is 500mA.

higher currents are on request, which can be denied if the host cannot
provide it.

If it can't provide it, it's faulty. USB sockets should have 500mA available. No need to be asking for it. Does your toaster ask the mains socket if it can have 5 amps?

typically, providing 500ma isn't an issue, but that's not always the
case.

No reason for it not to be.

your specs sound like idle power,

It's just what it says on the label.

idle power doesn't matter if there's not enough power to spin up the
drive.

not maximum power draw, in particular
spinning up the drive, which may need 20w or more, and if there is not
enough power to spin up the drive, it won't be particularly useful.

A temporary surge won't matter, just as a motor starting doesn't blow a plug
fuse in the mains.

it does matter, and a motor start can easily blow a fuse due to the
surge.

Not a slow blow fuse. That's why we don't put fast blow fuses in mains plugs.

drive makers do not want to deal with compatibility issues, especially
when it comes to potential data loss.

I'd design my caddy to have an optional PSU connector. You try it without,
if it doesn't work, plug in the mains. Lots are actually like this.

connecting it to mains power means it's no longer bus-powered.

What part of "optional" did you miss?

note that there are 3.5" bus-powered enclosures that have an auxiliary
battery for spin-up, which allows it to work on any usb port.

https://blog.seagate.com/consumers/t...wered-desktop-
external-drive/
On top of the power from a USB-C computer, an internal battery gives
the drive a boost during its spin-up phase.
...
³One of the biggest drawbacks of these high-capacity drives is that
they take so much power. You need to plug them into the wall.
...
Early on, when the drive is still cool, the battery supplies
supplemental power to the hard drive, adds Phil Yin, a
principal hardware technologist.

³But once the drive has warmed up, its power requirement is
reduced and the host system is able to recharge the battery,²
explains Yin.

you also have only 5v from a usb port, and boosting it to 12v would
incur losses, so even in an ideal situation, you still won't have 10w.

Nowadays those losses are minimal.

the laws of physics haven't changed.

The efficiency of transistors has.

tl;dr 3.5" drives are not bus-powered.

What is "tl;dr"?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl%3Bdr
A) "Too long; didn't read.", meaning a post, article, or anything
with words was too long, and whoever used the phrase didn't read
it for that reason.

B) Also used by someone who wrote a large posts/article/whatever to
show a brief summary of their post as it might be too long.

Doesn't make sense in your sentence above.

some specs-

western digital green, a very popular drive, ranges from needing 1.2a @
12v for 500 gb up to 1.75a for 4tb, and that's just for the mechanism,
not the bridge.
http://products.wdc.com/library/SpecSheet/ENG/2879-771438.pdf

That's odd, since Green is the low power version, used for Sky TV boxes etc.
They run very cool. I don't believe they use anything like that much.. It's
way more than other drives.

idle isn't that much power, however, spin-up definitely is.

seagate skyhawk needs 1.8-2a @12v to spin-up the drive, depending on
capacity, or about 22-24 watts.
https://www.seagate.com/www-content/...wk-3-5-hddDS19
02-7-1711US-en_US.pdf

usb-c can source more power, but that's not widespread, yet.

I have one on my two year old desktop. It's a red socket.

red is a sleep/charge usb-a port, which remains powered if the computer
is in sleep/standby and may also source more current than the other usb
ports since it's intended for charging.

usb-c is an entirely different connector and does not need a colour..

usb-c on the left, usb-a on the right:

Didn't realise they were two different things. Apparently my board has one
of each:
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard...P-rev-10/sp#sp

Anyway, you said "usb-c can source more power, but that's not widespread,
yet."
Clearly it is widespread if I have it on a 2 year old board.

usb-a first appeared about 25 years ago and is just about everywhere
now, not just computers, but also in cars, mains outlets, furniture and
much more.

usb-c first appeared about 4-5 years ago and has a *long* way to go to
catch up.

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1lgkGX...2-1A-USB-Wall-
Socket-for-US-UK-AU-Universal-Plugs-Dual-USB-Port-Charger-High.jpg

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/610iC9sVh9L._SR500,500_.jpg

https://www.homecrux.com/pons-easy-t...es-with-usb-po
rts-for-charging/64070/
https://www.myfurnitureplace.com/pro...-sofa-and-love
seat-with-usb-ports

https://blogmedia.dealerfire.com/wp-.../188/2016/10/2
017-Nissan-Versa-B8_o.jpg
https://cf-images.us-east-1.prod.bol...40004208001/16
1269bd-60ac-4f46-9898-18364895a69d/a78c6fef-6475-4c19-8344-9caf655d9fd3/
1280x720/match/image.jpg

And now you're saying it's sleep/charge with more power, not USB-C.
My god it's amazing anything works at all with 10 different sub-standards.
In fact my phone charges faster on it's own mains charger than on a USB port
which has more than enough available. Looks like even the phone doesn't
understand the specs. (I tested the current draw with a meter: charger
supplies 750mA of it's 1A rating, USB 3 port supplies 500mA of it's 900mA
rating, WTF?)

https://s.yimg.com/aah/pchcables/3-f...en-1-type-c-ma
le-to-type-a-male-cable-5gbps-2a-4.png

Why didn't you do this? Put the link on one line so I didn't have to paste
it together? Wrapping lines to 80 chars is irritating, but wrapping a single word (or URL) is absurd! No word or link should ever split. Who cares if it goes off the edge, at least I can click it.
https://s.yimg.com/aah/pchcables/3-f...5gbps-2a-4.png

using delimiters eliminates any problems with embedded whitespace,
including line breaks and spaces.

the url should be directly clickable in the newsreader. if not, find a
better newsreader.

I have no need to read the , as the link could just have been put in as is.

your example url does not have delimiters and can break.

No need to break it, I put no carriage returns in it.

this is an extreme example, which is still clickable and works fine
even with the extra added whitespace:
https://s.yimg.com/aah/pchc
ables/3-foot-usb-3-0-usb-3-1-gen-
1-type-c-ma
le-to-type-a-male-cable-5gbps-2a-4.png

Not here it isn't. Oh look, this one works fine:
https://s.yimg.com/aah/pchcables/3-f...5gbps-2a-4.png

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0fdlxmwmwdg98l@glass...
usb-c first appeared about 4-5 years ago and has a *long* way to go to
catch up.

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

The micro **** should never have been invented. I wonder how many phones
are thrown away because the flimsy charging socket has broken.

I've often wondered why Mini and Micro USB were ever developed. Was there a
manufacturing problem when they were designed that prevented a connector
with 180-degree rotational symmetry like USB-C has? I presume USB-C has
identical redundant pins on opposite faces of the plug, so only those on one
face are used, depending which way round the plug is inserted.

I've been surprised at how durable the Micro USB sockets in my phones have
been, despite on several occasions the phone falling and the plug catching
on something, which would put great stress on the PCB with the contacts
inside the socket. Usually it's the *plug* that fails first - either poor
contacts inside it or (more usually) intermittent contact inside the cable
close to the plug. I suppose it's designed that way round: the plug is made
"sacrificial" because it's much easier/cheaper to replace a cable than the
socket inside a device.

In article op.0fdlvxg1wdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a DB25
connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the robot).

I got those mixed up once. DB25 was used for parallel and serial. If you
connected the wrong one, you shorted the power from the motherboard and killed it instantly.

it was commonly used for rs232 serial, but also used for various other
things, including parallel, scsi, video, audio and custom purposes.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zKYAAOSwd1teDcGz/s-l640.jpg

https://amigakit.amiga.store/images/amiga-rgb-to-scart.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:13W3_Stecker.jpg

https://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/media/2012/08/yamaha1.png

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/642...40663d6b427f_1.
297b29ccfe83af5e82f3a371826ef3af.jpeg

In article op.0fdlxmwmwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

The micro **** should never have been invented. I wonder how many phones are
thrown away because the flimsy charging socket has broken.

a lot.

it's one of the worst connectors ever designed.