Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 17:08:17 -0000, Paul wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 11:55:30 -0000, Paul wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:03:40 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/4/20 4:42 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

But charging can be done via induction. And just how long do your
firmware updates take that requires more than a battery full?

I have a phone that can charge that way (Qi). One problem is that it
won't automatically restart a charge. If you leave it connected, it
stops charging when full then dies later. The same phone on wired
charging, doesn't have that problem.

That's nothing to do with it being induction, that's just a monumentally
stupid design. AFAIK a Li-Ion battery can just have 4.2V left across it
indefinitely and it just takes no power when full. they're very easy to
make chargers for, rather like lead acid batteries, you just provide a
constant voltage, with a current limited supply, or it'll blow up the
supply.

That's not a good idea.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy13osti/54404.pdf

"Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2, or LCO) has been the cathode
of choice for the majority of consumer-level Li-ion cells
produced today. Although it delivers good capacity, it is
the most reactive and has poorer thermal stability than other
cathodes."

It's a charging process that users should not interfere with.

The chargers for those are precise circuits.

Bull****. Just observe what your charger does. I watched one charge a
single Li-Ion cell. It limited the current to 1 amp (that was what the
charger was capable of) until it got to 4.2V, then it kept it at 4.2V
until the current dropped to virtually nothing. Then it activated the
green LED to tell me it was full, while maintaining the 4.2V with
virtually no current.

Typical charger circuit. Band gap reference inside.

https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/lear.../MCP738312.pdf

Figure 2-18 shows the current dropping to zero, and you can
see the voltage of the cell starting to "relax" as charging
has stopped.

"Constant current first phase, constant voltage second phase, off"

https://i.postimg.cc/kGD7z66L/full-c...-cv-cc-off.gif

The treatment of these cells has to do with the definition
of "full" and "uncontrolled charging" and "overcharging".

The controller switches off at the end, because by definition
the charge cycle is complete. During 4.2V CV phase, the percentage
of current flow (measured by the charger), drops to a
certain percentage of the original charge current. And that
is how "full charge" is defined. So all chargers do the same
thing, the cycle must terminate so they all terminate in the
same way, and fill the tank to the same level. This allows
the manufacturer to say "everyone using my cell treats it the
same standard way, so the level of safety they see is the
same as the level of safety I see in my lab".

This is most easily achieved with single chip one-stop-shopping
chargers. If you find a hobbyist web page, where someone connects
an LM317 to a cell (which is not a charger chip), well, the
behavior isn't defined by the correct way to do it, the behavior
is defined by the level of skill of the hobbyist. Fully integrated
chargers have everything needed for the job. That chip above, comes
on a tiny circuit board with a USB connector, and allows charging
a single cell from a USB port.

And thermal runaway is what the two words mean. It means
once started, it ends badly. Even if you "used a thermistor"
and measured cell temperature, it's possible that "turning back"
is not possible once the behavior has started. Then a safety
feature cuts in. And sometimes, if you read the other PDF
I provided, it doesn't end well because a safety feature
actually makes things worse.

*******

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._ion_batteries

"Once the charge is terminated, the battery voltage begins to drop.

This eases the voltage stress.

Over time, the open circuit voltage will settle to between
3.70V and 3.90V/cell. === This is the relaxation phase, important to
battery life.

Note that a Li-ion battery that has received a fully saturated charge
will keep the voltage elevated for a longer than one that has not
received a saturation charge.
"

It's undesirable to leave it at 4.2V forever.

If you wanted to do that, because you were a hobbyist with limited
skill, you'd simply set the charger voltage to a value less than
4.2V. If the cell is asymptotically going to 3.70V anyway, you could
charge it forever to 3.7V. I don't know the chemistry well enough,
to predict the level of safety while doing that. Or whether such a
slick move, alters the charge cycle life.

Well that's wrong for a start - if I charge my Panasonic cycle lamp cells, then leave them on the shelf for months, they're still at almost 4.2V. So your "Over time, the open circuit voltage will settle to between 3.70V and 3.90V/cell" is bull****.

On 2/5/20 1:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

Also a "figure of 8", which being born in 1975 I called a "taperecorder
lead":
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pharos-Indu...0929951&sr=8-3

I've seen that one called an "infinity cord" since the shape of the end
that connects to the device resembles the symbol for infinity.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The foolish renounce this world and pursue an imaginary world to come."
-- Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), Italian philosopher

On 2/6/20 10:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:33:13 -0000, Snit
wrote:

On 2/6/20 2:47 AM, jeremy wrote:
In article ,

says...
I know because I saw them and asked an employee how long it
would take
to charge my car. She had no idea... sigh.

Show me a link to one or forever hold your piece.

You have never heard of a USB Car Charger?

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...ess/2407770011


that doesn't charge a car.

You are a genius! LOL!

Congrats on completely missing the joke. I have used the same joke on a
number of the employees at the dollar store and most get it. One did
not. Now we see someone else who did not. Fair enough.


Says more about the employees at the dollar store if you ask me.


Well, most got it (2 or 3 others). Only one did not.

Don't give up the day job, your jokes are pathetic.

In your case I blame the audience.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 00:40:30 -0000, Snit wrote:

On 2/5/20 5:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 23:20:38 -0000, Snit
wrote:

On 2/5/20 4:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 20:40:08 -0000, Snit
wrote:

On 2/5/20 12:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2020 00:59:28 -0000, Snit

wrote:

But, yes,
we have those here -- I have a bunch of extras even though I tossed
many
cables a year or so ago. It got silly. Apple even makes them with a
circle on them for no real reason... but it makes them worth twice
the
cost.

https://beetstech.com/product/imac-a...hoCOqEQAvD_BwE



ROFL, I remember those, I was told off once by an Apple nut for just
using a kettle lead. Apparently a lead capable of powering a 3kW
kettle
at 13A wasn't good enough for his precious mac. Then I pointed out
the
notch in it which indicated it was heat resistant and he shut up.

You mean the Apple ones are not magical?

Nope, it's all a big con by Jobs.... er.... whatever his new incarnation
is called.

Actually the cord is not $37 or something like that.

What is it then? Because most cords are much cheaper than that. In
fact at my last place of work I bought a job lot on Ebay for £50. About
400 of them. Did the same with SCART leads. I only needed about 10,
the other 390 I just sent a global email and placed them in a corridor
with a sign saying "please take one". They went fairly quick.

You can find them on the Apple Store as easily as I. Under $20... do not
remember.

Still way too much for a kettle lead.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 17:18:14 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/5/20 1:15 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

Also a "figure of 8", which being born in 1975 I called a "taperecorder
lead":
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pharos-Indu...0929951&sr=8-3

I've seen that one called an "infinity cord" since the shape of the end
that connects to the device resembles the symbol for infinity.

Total and utter misrepresentation :-) An infinity cord should be a superconductor - so you can put as much current through it as you wish.

Commander Kinsey wrote:

Well that's wrong for a start - if I charge my Panasonic cycle lamp
cells, then leave them on the shelf for months, they're still at almost
4.2V. So your "Over time, the open circuit voltage will settle to
between 3.70V and 3.90V/cell" is bull****.

Read the text about what affects the behavior.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...self_discharge

Battery system Estimated self-discharge
-------------- ------------------------

Lithium-ion 5% in 24h, then 1–2% per month
(plus 3% for safety circuit)

Of course you expect to see immediate effects after a charging
operation, because the chemistry around the electrodes relies
on ionic migration. In the first 24 hours, the local chemistry
starts to equilibrate, and the "true nature" of the state
of the cell is revealed after it settles down.

Paul

[snip]

maybe not yours, but quite a few laptops charge from usb-c

Silly little ones maybe.

not so silly and not so little.

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/best-laptops-charge-power-bank/

I got a power bank last year with the Lenovo laptop. It was on sale for
1 cent. The stated output is 45W (20V 2.25A or 15V/9V/5V 3A). It was
enough to operate the laptop after it shut down because of low battery.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The foolish renounce this world and pursue an imaginary world to come."
-- Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), Italian philosopher

On 2/5/20 7:55 PM, nospam wrote:
In article op.0fjboz0mwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Now we can debate which are male and female plugs.

Can you get a transgender plug? The answer now I think of it is yes. An
engineer once told me you can get er... I forget the name, but it's got the
word male and female in it. The outer shell can be one sex and the inner
another. Something to do with pins in a shroud or something.

one example of many:
https://cdn.sparkfun.com//assets/parts/1/2/6/4/12748-01.jpg
https://cdn.sparkfun.com//assets/parts/7/3/6/3/11476-01.jpg

So what are they called? There is an official name for the LGBTQXDEF plugs.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_power_connector

I use net gender. The one that's put on the board is female, since the
part that sticks out is still within the part that sticks in.

The one on the cord is male since it sticks out more.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The foolish renounce this world and pursue an imaginary world to come."
-- Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), Italian philosopher

[snip]

it sources 5v to charge accessories, usually phones but also many other
devices.

Are there any that put out higher voltages (for USB 3)?

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The foolish renounce this world and pursue an imaginary world to come."
-- Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), Italian philosopher

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 01:55:44 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fi8g5eiwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


de-bricking needs a cable

It wouldn't if it was designed correctly. There's no reason a cable has
better access than a wireless connection.

yes there is. bricked means non-functional.

Yet it can communicate through the cable? Are you really that stupid?

the boot loader is very minimal and doesn't know about wifi radios or
networking stacks or much else.

Then it should.

no it shouldn't.

boot loaders are intentionally minimal.

Why make something intentionally ****? That would be like a PC which couldn't boot from USB.

What century are you in? And how did you manage to brick
your phone? I've never done that.

i didn't say i bricked my phone or any other device i own.

Then why are you discussing it if it's so rare?

And just how long do your
firmware updates take that requires more than a battery full?

the battery isn't the risk for firmware updates, but rather if the
wireless link flakes or if the update itself fails.

Bull****. The transfer goes into a buffer first. Just like when you do a
BIOS update on a desktop.

only if there's sufficient memory to store a second copy of the
firmware while the first one continues to run.

not all devices do. phones do, but most other devices do not.

What other devices do you put firmware on, your toaster?

all sorts of devices have firmware updates, including computers,
phones, tablets, routers, switches, tvs, bluray players, cars, medical
equipment, thermostats, battery chargers, light bulbs, air quality
monitors, cameras, microwave ovens, toaster ovens, refrigerators and
much, much more.

And if the device is simpler and has less memory, it will be a smaller firmware anyway. There should always be a duplicate of the space taken by the firmware, so it can download all of it before engaging.

Are we talking about Iphones here? They're infamous for having ****
batteries.

actually, they're famous for have excellent battery life.

ROTFPMSL! I know three colleagues who changed to an alternative phone
because they were constantly having to charge the bloody things just because
they'd made a few phonecalls. Apple are obsessed with making things as small
and thin as possible so they end up with tiny flimsy connectors and no room for
decent batteries. They remind me of Clive Sinclair.

iphones have been getting thicker in recent years, one reason to hold a
larger battery.

https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph14892/96171.png

So Apple are learning their lesson slowly.

On 06/02/2020 17:15, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:33:13 -0000, Snit
wrote:

On 2/6/20 2:47 AM, jeremy wrote:
In article ,

says...
I know because I saw them and asked an employee how long it
would take
to charge my car. She had no idea... sigh.

Show me a link to one or forever hold your piece.

You have never heard of a USB Car Charger?

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...ess/2407770011


that doesn't charge a car.

You are a genius! LOL!

Congrats on completely missing the joke. I have used the same joke on a
number of the employees at the dollar store and most get it. One did
not. Now we see someone else who did not. Fair enough.


Says more about the employees at the dollar store if you ask me.


Well, most got it (2 or 3 others). Only one did not.

Don't give up the day job, your jokes are pathetic.

Just opened a can of worms. They don't do much. Not the chaos I was
expecting.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 17:54:08 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:


[snip]

it sources 5v to charge accessories, usually phones but also many other
devices.

Are there any that put out higher voltages (for USB 3)?

Already being superceded by Qualcomm Quick Charge 3 - https://www.androidauthority.com/qui...lained-643053/
Negotiates any voltage from 3.7V to 20V in increments of 200mV.

David wrote:
On 06/02/2020 17:15, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:33:13 -0000, Snit
wrote:

On 2/6/20 2:47 AM, jeremy wrote:
In article ,

says...
I know because I saw them and asked an employee how long it
would take
to charge my car. She had no idea... sigh.

Show me a link to one or forever hold your piece.

You have never heard of a USB Car Charger?

https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-...ess/2407770011


that doesn't charge a car.

You are a genius! LOL!

Congrats on completely missing the joke. I have used the same joke on a
number of the employees at the dollar store and most get it. One did
not. Now we see someone else who did not. Fair enough.


Says more about the employees at the dollar store if you ask me.


Well, most got it (2 or 3 others). Only one did not.

Don't give up the day job, your jokes are pathetic.

Just opened a can of worms. They don't do much. Not the chaos I was
expecting.


Will you hold the worms in your mouth?

Likely not. I won’t wait with baited breath for you to do so.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger. They cling to their attacks
and ignore the message time and time again.

In article op.0fkvbp1wwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

it sources 5v to charge accessories, usually phones but also many other
devices.

Are there any that put out higher voltages (for USB 3)?

Already being superceded by Qualcomm Quick Charge 3 -
https://www.androidauthority.com/qui...lained-643053/
Negotiates any voltage from 3.7V to 20V in increments of 200mV.

that's from 2015.

qualcomm quickcharge was a proprietary standard that is no longer
needed with the industry standard usb-c pd.

On Thu, 06 Feb 2020 18:14:03 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fkvbp1wwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

it sources 5v to charge accessories, usually phones but also many other
devices.

Are there any that put out higher voltages (for USB 3)?

Already being superceded by Qualcomm Quick Charge 3 -
https://www.androidauthority.com/qui...lained-643053/
Negotiates any voltage from 3.7V to 20V in increments of 200mV.

that's from 2015.

qualcomm quickcharge was a proprietary standard that is no longer
needed with the industry standard usb-c pd.

It sounds better - more voltages permitted.