Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents of the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?

In article , pyotr
filipivich wrote:

I am of the opinion that a lot of interface issues with Windows
are because the people who work _on_ the interface think it is a neat
idea, but don't know anyone who actual works _with_ the interface.

very much so.

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 13:19:58 -0400, nospam wrote:

I am of the opinion that a lot of interface issues with Windows
are because the people who work _on_ the interface think it is a neat
idea, but don't know anyone who actual works _with_ the interface.

very much so.

I will concur that I used to do software usability testing for a startup in
the Silicon Valley where we invited customers to volunteer use the new
alpha code behind those so-called 2-way mirrors (this is before digital
camera technology 'cuz today, we'd just have them use a web cam setup or
something like that).

We would have a team of people behind the mirror counting their keystrokes,
and watching their mistakes, where we used those bits of data to tell the
damn engineers that the software wasn't anywhere nearly as intuitive as
they thought it was.

I remember, in one case, the engineer was incredulous that people could
move to the next version of the software, saying "How hard is it that they
can't pop a few tapes into the magtape drive?)

To that engineer, using software was only as complex as loading it off the
magtape drive.

In short, _many_ Silicon Valley engineers, IMHO, have no clue what its like
for their customers to use their software - which - I suspect - strongly so
- follows suit up in Redmond too.

BTW, to the point of this thread, on the Android newsgroup we found useful
information that Google is limiting access to the clipboard in Android 10.

Here's a snippet...
https://stuff.mit.edu/afs/sipb/project/android/docs/guide/topics/text/creating-input-method.html
https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2009/04/updating-applications-for-on-screen.html
https://source.android.com/setup/start/android-10-release
https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/changes
https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/changes#clipboard-data

SUMMARY:
o Privacy Changes in Android 10
"Unless your app is the default input method editor (IME) or is the
app that currently has focus, your app cannot access clipboard data
on Android 10 or higher."

To be able to automatically detect clipboard changes, the application
must be explicitly set as running as "Accessibility service". [sic]

o Restrict app clipboard access
"In Android 10, clipboard access has changed so that clipboard
content can't be watched by calling ClipboardManager.getPrimaryClip
or by adding an onPrimaryClipChanged listener for notification
when the clipboard changes. This increases user privacy and
disables malvertizing apps from modifying the clipboard."

"In Android 10, read access is only allowed to either the current
app with input focus, or to the current keyboard.
The ClipboardManager.onPrimaryClipChanged() listener call now
only fires for apps that meet such restrictions.
ClipboardManager.getPrimaryClip &
ClipboardManager.getPrimaryClipDescription
return null if the requesting app either isn't the default
input method editor (IME), or doesn't have input focus."
--
Those who write GUIs should be forced to use them daily as punishment.

Pyotr,

I am of the opinion that a lot of interface issues with Windows
are because the people who work _on_ the interface think it is
a neat idea, but don't know anyone who actual works _with_
the interface.

An there are a number of problems which are only there because whatever has
been created just needed to do what they where busy with - with reusability
a far-away stepchild. Like who the heck though it would be a good idea to
let the enter key in a textcontrol (still!) just exit a dialog - without
even going thru the regular tear-down channels ?

Sometimes I get the feeling as if the MS guys are just playing a cruel game
with (hobby) programmers (like me). :-(

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

"Mayayana" on Thu, 19 Mar 2020 13:18:05
-0400 typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote

| I am of the opinion that a lot of interface issues with Windows
| are because the people who work _on_ the interface think it is a neat
| idea, but don't know anyone who actual works _with_ the interface.

I think in this case it's a lack of foresight. Windows
Script Host came out in the late 90s, intended as DOS
updated for the GUI era. At the same time, Microsoft
were integrating COM objects into scripting in IE, to
create "ActiveX". What resulted was a very powerful,
adaptable programming system. The single method of
CreateObject (vbs) or New ActiveXObject (js) opened
up Windows scripting to any available dispatch interface.
(Late-bound COM objects.) Bu that was almost an
accident in terms of being useful in Windows. They
were only trying to screw Netscape.

Meanwhile, what they had meant to do with WSH was
just to give sys admins an easier way to track the file
system, write log files, and so on. So they provided a
method to read and write text files. But no functionality
to handle binary files. Likewise with the Clipboard. It
wasn't a question of security or of functionality. IT people
maintaining computers in the corporate world just didn't
need the Clipboard. They needed to write logs, change
Registry values, check installed software.... that kind of
thing.

I will take your word for it. But it fits with my opinion, that
much is done with Windows "for the needs of the plot" err
programmers.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"pyotr filipivich" wrote

| I will take your word for it. But it fits with my opinion, that
| much is done with Windows "for the needs of the plot" err
| programmers.
|

I think that's true much more with open source. Windows
is commercial. It has to satisfy business customers. Macs
are even more so. Everything on a Mac is either effortless
or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.
Windows has to adapt to a lot more hardware variety, and
it has to maintain a great deal of backward compatibility.
They also have to straddle the boundary between Mac and
Linux. Configurable by IT but usable by normal people. So
they do things like hide the real settings behind an intimidating
button marked "Advanced".

Open source, on the other hand, is not commercial, so there's
no customer who has to be satisfied. Don't like fluorescent green
text in a black window? Screw you! Compile it yourself!

Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,
the kind of programmers you're thinking of, don't want
civilians to be able to use computers. That's why Linux is such
a mess. You can probably clear the Clipboard on Linux. And
the instructions probably start with, "Open the console
shell interface of your choice and start Perl..."

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

Everything on a Mac is either effortless
or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.

false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 13:35:47, Mayayana
wrote:
[]
Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,
[]
Didn't you write one? Someone did, and I was sort of one of (your I
thought it was) beta testers. If it was you, did it ever proceed any
further?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If vegetarians eat vegetables,..beware of humanitarians!

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
| recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,
| []
| Didn't you write one? Someone did, and I was sort of one of (your I
| thought it was) beta testers. If it was you, did it ever proceed any
| further?

I use it myself. After you tried it I made a couple
of minor adjustments, but it's all I need. I don't have a
use for the endless command line options so I didn't
see any reason to add them. So it's done, weighing in
at a whopping 20 KB.

The one thing I'd like to fix, though I'm not sure I
can: I haven't figured out a way to keep the display
updated. All the reporting from youtube-dl shows up
only when downloading is finished because IE doesn't
allow for painting the window before a function
finishes. There are hacks to get around that, but
so far I haven't found one to work.

nospam on Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:51:40 -0400
typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
In article , Mayayana
wrote:

Everything on a Mac is either effortless
or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.

false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.

So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

pyotr filipivich wrote:
nospam on Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:51:40 -0400
typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
In article , Mayayana
wrote:

Everything on a Mac is either effortless
or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.
false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.

So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?

Look for Terminal ?

https://www.howtogeek.com/347920/how...-the-terminal/

Paul

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:55:38 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 13:35:47, Mayayana
wrote:
[]
Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,
[]
Didn't you write one? Someone did, and I was sort of one of (your I
thought it was) beta testers. If it was you, did it ever proceed any
further?

I wrote and use one, but it's just a GUI frontend, with a box
for low resolution. You can see the download because a dos box pops
up.
Why? Because I'm lazy.
Lazarus - Free Pascal. 767 KB UPX'd.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

In article , pyotr
filipivich wrote:


Everything on a Mac is either effortless
or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.

false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.

So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?

trivial. have you even used a mac?? sure doesn't sound like it.

launch terminal (in utilities folder in the applications folder), part
of the os itself.

other options include using a third party terminal app (there are a
couple) as well as ssh into it (if enabled, it's off by default).

zsh is now the default shell (previously bash), but can be changed to
any of several others.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 20:16:51 -0400, Mayayana wrote:

I don't have a
use for the endless command line options so I didn't
see any reason to add them.

The main handful of options, for common tasks, for me, seem to be:
A. Download a video as an OPUS file:
youtube-dl.exe http://whatevervideourl.com
B. Download a video as an MP4 file:
youtube-dl.exe -f 18 http://whatevervideourl.com
C. Download and extract just the audio as an M4A:
youtube-dl.exe -f 140 http://whatevervideourl.com
D. Download and extract just the audio as an MP3:
youtube-dl.exe -x --audio-format mp3 --audio-quality 0 http://whatevervideourl.com
E. Download the videos in a playlist text file:
youtube-dl.exe -ciwo "%(title)s.%(ext)s" -a myPlayList.txt
Where the myPlayList.txt simply contains a list of URLs, one per line

BTW... Do we _still_ need to obtain FFMPEG separately?

Anyway, for those wanting to install the youtube-dl, these step-by-step
cut-and-paste instructions were posted to this newsgroup years ago.

As always for others' benefit, here are those (old) instructions:
(I haven't tested them in a while though.)

1. Install Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Redistributable Package (x86)
https://www.microsoft.com/en-US/down...s.aspx?id=5555

2. Upate Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Service Pack 1 Redistributable Package MFC Security Update
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/down....aspx?id=26999

3: To extract audio, obtain ffmpeg any way you can, e.g.,
http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/
http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/win...n64-static.zip
Put the three executables in the same directory as the youtube-dl.exe
ffmpeg.exe
ffplay.exe
ffprobe.exe

Note: youtube-dl.exe -x is what needs ffmpeg although you can set it to
-x, --extract-audio = Convert video files to audio-only files
(requires ffmpeg or avconv and ffprobe or avprobe)

You can also just point to the FFMPEG directory:
--ffmpeg-location PATH = Location of the ffmpeg/avconv binary;

4. Then get the right youtube-dl.exe that uses Visusal C & not python!
https://youtube-dl.org/
http://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/download.html
https://yt-dl.org/downloads/2018.08.28/youtube-dl.exe

5. Check the hash!
(Compare the hash to that listed on the web page.)
The reason this matters is that there are different types
(e.g., the visual C, python, and maybe others for all I know)


For example, my hash was...
---------------------------
Checksum information
---------------------------
Name: youtube-dl.exe
Size: 7955964 bytes (7 MB)

SHA256: 935D5FD32932BF0A6D842F28E168D84F7FC674CD995A5A4646 D9A70145B6B255

---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

To test:

1. Choose any test video that you know will have slipstream ads inside it.
https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg (Happy New Year 2018)

2. If you extract audio then obtain the latest ffmpeg if you don't have it.
http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/

This is the one I used:
http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/win...n64-static.zip

That's three executables but I think you only need "ffprobe.exe".
(But I kept the three executables together so I didn't test that out.)

3. I put the three ffmpeg executables in the current working directory.

However you can add them to your path if you like.
AFAIK, you only need 1 of the 3 ffmpeg executables (ffprobe.exe).

cmd copy c:\path\ffmpeg\bin\ffprobe.exe .\ffprobe.exe
(Or just put the extracted c:\path\ffmpeg\bin\ in your PATH variable.)

If you get these errors when running the youtube extractor, it's the path:
"writing DASH m4a. Only some players support this container. "
"Install ffmpeg or avconv to fix this automatically."

4. Obtain the latest working youtube-dl.exe (get the right one!)

This is the one I use because it works and doesn't require python!
From: https://youtube-dl.org/downloads/latest/youtube-dl.exe
Size: 7760634 bytes (7 MB)
SHA256: C0396D47480D7C9A14464A8E51E79993F88BD76D6BCFDB1131 2EFD0D88F3C5C7

NOTE: Some of the GUIs require python and others require java, but
this one requires neither.

5. Doublecheck that the basics are working fine & that you're up to date:
cmd youtube-dl.exe --version
Initially reported:
2017.07.15

So I updated it:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -U
Which reported:
Updating to version 2017.12.31 ...
Waiting for file handle to be closed ...
Updated youtube-dl to version 2017.12.31.

Testing it again:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -U
Now reports:
youtube-dl is up-to-date (2017.12.31)

And doublechecking the version:
cmd youtube-dl.exe --version
Now reports:
2017.12.31

Optionally, output the manpage:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -h youtube-dl.man.txt
cmd type youtube-dl.man.txt | more

6. Run the command below to download any YouTube video as an mp4:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -f 18 https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Extracting video information
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading MPD manifest
[download] Destination: Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.mp4
[download] 100% of 3.44MiB in 00:01

cmd dir
30-Dec-17 10:14 AM 3,602,418 Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.mp4

Note that you can actually add the ads as this is an option!
--include-ads (Download advertisements as well)

7. Now try to extract the audio as an opus file:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -x https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Extracting video information
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading MPD manifest
[download] Destination: Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.m4a
[download] 100% of 621.97KiB in 00:00
[ffmpeg] Correcting container in "Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.m4a"
[ffmpeg] Post-process file Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.m4a exists, skipping

8. Try to extract the audio as an m4a format file:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Extracting video information
[youtube] n6eXtBbhpYg: Downloading MPD manifest
[download] Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.m4a has already been downloaded
[download] 100% of 621.52KiB
[ffmpeg] Correcting container in "Happy New Year 2018-n6eXtBbhpYg.m4a"

9. In summary, these two commands are the ones most used:
Video download as MP4:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -f 18 https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg
Audio extraction as M4A:
cmd youtube-dl.exe -f 140 https://youtu.be/n6eXtBbhpYg

10. Addendum: I do not use this implementation of the same name!
https://yt-dl.org/downloads/2017.07.15/youtube-dl.exe
Referenced in https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/download.html
(This implementation failed on the harder test videos.)
Addendum: I do not use the all-in-1 GUI which failed on my harder tests.
https://sourceforge.net/projects/youtube-dl-gtk/

This gets the video sans slipstream (using a harder testcase):
youtube-dl.exe -f 18 https://youtu.be/VuNIsY6JdUw
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading webpage
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Extracting video information
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading js player vflalc4VN
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading MPD manifest
[download] Destination: Taylor Swift - You Belong With Me-VuNIsY6JdUw.mp4
[download] 100% of 17.98MiB in 00:23
18,857,601 Taylor Swift - You Belong With Me-VuNIsY6JdUw.mp4

This adds the slipstream advertisement (using a harder testcase):
youtube-dl.exe -f 18 --include-ads https://youtu.be/VuNIsY6JdUw
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading webpage
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading video info webpage
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Extracting video information
[youtube] VuNIsY6JdUw: Downloading MPD manifest
[download] Destination: Taylor Swift - You Belong With Me-VuNIsY6JdUw.mp4
[download] 100% of 17.98MiB in 00:27
18,857,601 Taylor Swift - You Belong With Me-VuNIsY6JdUw.mp4

Here are other GUIs but they require Python or Java:
https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/

youtube-dlG frontend (portable)
https://github.com/MrS0m30n3/youtube-dl-gui

youtube-dl-gui 1.52 (portable)
https://www.videohelp.com/software/youtube-dl-gui

yaYTDLFrontend (java portable)
https://bitbucket.org/qwertz19281/yaytdlfrontend/src

As always, HTH; if not, please improve so that every thread on Usenet
adds on-topic technical value to our combined tribal knowledge.
--
Only 2 kinds of people are on Usenet: Those adding value & those who can't.

"pyotr filipivich" wrote

| So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?

They have something called AppleScript. And there's
some kind of access to the Unix core. I think it's an
outdated preconception, though, to think that one
only gets to the "real stuff" when the mouse is disabled.
That's the attitude of the oldtimers who make fun of
people who want a GUI. But actually, command line
is very limited and is mostly used to send command line
arguments to executables. The commands are really
simple automations rather than extra functionality. Most
things you can do in console can be done easier in the
GUI. Which, of course, was the whole point of making
a GUI.

Which raises an interesting question: What makes a
system accessible? Programming on a Mac requires
using their hardware, with a license and their tools.
At the other extreme, programming on Linux is open
to all and lots of methods are provided. But if you
don't have well designed, intuitive tools and good
docs then you're lost. That's what's always been nice
about Windows: There are numerous levels of expertise
with tools and docs at each level.

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?

They have something called AppleScript.

that's mainly a gui scripting language and *very* capable, which can
also be used for other stuff, including writing apps.

And there's
some kind of access to the Unix core.

otherwise known as a command line, and much more than 'some kind of
access to the unix core'.

I think it's an
outdated preconception, though, to think that one
only gets to the "real stuff" when the mouse is disabled.

the mouse isn't disabled with the command line.

That's the attitude of the oldtimers who make fun of
people who want a GUI. But actually, command line
is very limited and is mostly used to send command line
arguments to executables. The commands are really
simple automations rather than extra functionality. Most
things you can do in console can be done easier in the
GUI. Which, of course, was the whole point of making
a GUI.

not exactly.

Which raises an interesting question: What makes a
system accessible? Programming on a Mac requires
using their hardware, with a license and their tools.

it doesn't require it. there are third party tools for the mac and
always has been.

programming on windows is normally done with microsoft's tools, but
there are third party options as well.

At the other extreme, programming on Linux is open
to all and lots of methods are provided. But if you
don't have well designed, intuitive tools and good
docs then you're lost. That's what's always been nice
about Windows: There are numerous levels of expertise
with tools and docs at each level.

same for mac.