What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great Books?

Great Books no longer can meet at the local library so they asked me to
figure out a good teleconferencing app for about a dozen people, none of
whom are younger than about 75.

What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great
Books?

Requirements:
a. Video + audio + screen sharing (as needed) for about a dozen people
b. Cross platform (to all the common consumer platforms)
c. Preferably as "private" as is humanly possible

Being in quarantine, most people I ask on the phone seemed to suggest
"Zoom"; which worked fine in our three-person test - but Zoom _requires_
the host to create an account (via email/passwd credentials, which Zoom
checks via an authentication email).

In addition, Zoom requires the client for all participants, which is to be
expected for any cross-platform freeware video-tele-conference application.

The Zoom host needs:
a. Host email/passwd
b. Hose meeting ID
c. Zoom software

The Zoom participants need:
A. Host meeting ID
B. Zoom software

That's the worst case, which, if _all_ the teleconferencing apps require
the host to create an account, I guess we'll have to accept that by
creating a bogus email account on VPN for that login purpose for Zoom as
the host.

The good news is Zoom doesn't require an account for the participants.
o However, maybe there is a better privacy-aware videoteleconference app?

What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
call app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing
Great Books?

According to Wikipedia, these are, apparently, the main contenders:
o ACT Conferencing
o Adobe Acrobat Connect
o AT Conference
o Compunetix
o Elluminate
o Glance
o Google Hangouts (although Google may be killing it in the future)
o GoToMeeting
o InterCall
o LifeSize
o Livestorm Meet
o LoopUp
o MeetingZone
o MS Office Live Meeting
o my Global Conference
o Polycom
o Premiere Global Services
o Skype
o TrueConf
o Voxeet
o WebEx
o Zoom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleconference

What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great
Books?
--
Usenet allows purposefully helpful adults to share solutions with others.

In comp.mobile.android, Arlen Holder wrote:
What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great
Books?

Requirements:
a. Video + audio + screen sharing (as needed) for about a dozen people
b. Cross platform (to all the common consumer platforms)
c. Preferably as "private" as is humanly possible

Rent a server and install Big Blue Button on it, then you can host the
conferences yourself with the privacy controls you want.

https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/2.2/install.html

Possibly you could shut the server down between uses to save money, too.

Elijah
------
hasn't used it, but was giving advice about it to someone yesteday

Arlen Holder's subject should have been:

Teleconference; free, privacy?

Great Books no longer can meet at the local library so they asked me to
figure out a good teleconferencing app for about a dozen people, none of
whom are younger than about 75.

As much as I hate your subject creation, this is mostly/partly a good
project.

What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great
Books?

I think that in this particular instance, the privacy angle will have to
be sacrificed, at least in part.

Requirements:
a. Video + audio + screen sharing (as needed) for about a dozen people
b. Cross platform (to all the common consumer platforms)
c. Preferably as "private" as is humanly possible

I don't know how your Great Books meeting works, but my library's book
club doesn't really need the vid part of teleconferencing. We have a
leader who leads and the individuals speak up their input. It isn't
really necessary to vid the leader or the participant.

Being in quarantine, most people I ask on the phone seemed to suggest
"Zoom"; which worked fine in our three-person test - but Zoom _requires_
the host to create an account (via email/passwd credentials, which Zoom
checks via an authentication email).

Our leader/s aren't 'private' - their names and email accounts are known
to all of the members.

In addition, Zoom requires the client for all participants, which is to be
expected for any cross-platform freeware video-tele-conference application.

Zoom free wouldn't work for us.

Google Hangouts Meet would work; we number about 30 or less usually.

Crossposting temporarily respected, but I don't read the adroid or
iphone groups and I don't usually x-post into groups I don't
read/subscribe. There is also a conversation going on about this in
alt.os.linux.mint.

--
Mike Easter

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:45:05 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

I don't know how your Great Books meeting works, but my library's book
club doesn't really need the vid part of teleconferencing. We have a
leader who leads and the individuals speak up their input. It isn't
really necessary to vid the leader or the participant.

Hi Mike Easter,

I know you didn't like the subject but there are so many children on Usenet
who just want to play their silly childish games (particularly on the Apple
newsgroups) that I needed to be specific in what the question was about.

As for what a Great Books group would need, you're correct in that audio is
paramount, where there have been a few discussions on the Android newsgroup
on how to ensure audio is working since audio is one of those things that
has a _lot_ of external controls to it.
o Zoom audio problem, by pinnerite
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/0mc-j9faTWA

For example, on the Android newsgroups, we discussed external control of
easily accessed quicklaunch mute switches earlier this week:
https://i.postimg.cc/Dz8kBhD2/mute01.jpg

Which resulted, as always, in value added to our overall tribal knowledge:
o Tutorial: Quick test of quick(er) access to muting sounds
(alarms, calls, calendarm, emails, etc.) on Android
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/h7cn3bl61Ew

Where, for example, even if we limit ourselves to the Zoom app, there
_still_ are a host of audio settings which can affect audio output:
https://i.postimg.cc/SNtGhJ5X/zoom01.jpg

In summary, audio is required (and audio has many settings), but video is
nice, as is "raising the hand" and "public chat" which Zoom has in spades.

So far, nobody suggested anything better than Zoom, and that's what we
tested, but I love facts so if there are more facts, let's hear them.

Currently, our use model is simple, where it must take into account we're
all over 75 and hence, no one person can always host the meetings:
a. Everyone has been given the Great Books' administrator email & password.
b. Anyone can start the meeting using the unique permanent meeting ID.
c. We meet at a given time so it's expected "someone" will host the meeting.
d. Others will join the meeting, via Zoom, once someone hosts it.

How does that sound for the plan for quarantine-based Great Books meetings?
--
When people purposefully help each other on the Usenet potluck, we all win.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 19:53:31 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded wrote:

Rent a server and install Big Blue Button on it, then you can host the
conferences yourself with the privacy controls you want.

https://docs.bigbluebutton.org/2.2/install.html

Possibly you could shut the server down between uses to save money, too.

Elijah

Hi Elijah,

Thanks for your suggestion because we care about:
a. Privacy
b. Functionality
c. Versatility

With this quarantine stuff going world wide, it seems that a LOT of
new-to-me (new to us) solutions will be out there to help people like us
with our regular meetings that used to be done, in person.

I hadn't heard of "Big Blue Button" before, which instantly brings up the
two obvious instant questions:
a. What is it?, and,
b. Why didn't the Wikipedia article list it?

Looking up what this open source Big Blue Button is all about...
o https://bigbluebutton.org/
It's "a web conferencing system designed for online learning"

You don't know this, but I often substitute teach (although, that's put on
hold given the quarantine means every teacher can time multiplex easier
now), where this "Big Blue Button" seems apropos for that purpose.

Checking out the cross-platform features...
"BigBlueButton uses a full HTML5 client for its interface.
This means the same client runs on desktop, laptop, chromebook,
and your mobile devices (iOS 12.2+ and Android 6.0+).
We recommend Chrome and FireFox as these browsers provide
the best support for webRTC."

My iOS devices are all locked to the iOS they were born with (which is iOS
10 and 11 for the most part) so I can't test this on iOS but I can test it
on Linux, Windows, and Android.

Since the Big Blue Button server must work on bare metal, our server can be
on Ubuntu 16.04 (which is our dual-boot Linux/Windows machine that is
already used to turn any iOS devices on the planet into simple read/write
USB sticks), where, interestingly, one additional requirement of the Big
Blue Button Server software apparently is:
o Port 80 is not in use by another application

I think we can work around the limitations, where it's nice to be
acquainted with this Big Blue Button server software and HTML5 client
software which the students would use.

In addition, the Big Blue Button seems to have ample setup for recordings,
where what we have been doing to date _at_ the meetings, is free offline
recording & free offline transcription of the meetings on a mobile device:
o *Privacy based free 100% offline speech-to-text recorder/transcription*
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/_Amn35T16NA

Thank you for your added value suggestion to our overall tribal knowledge.
--
Usenet allows purposefully helpful adults to exchange useful information.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:35:46 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

Currently, our use model is simple, where it must take into account we're
all over 75 and hence, no one person can always host the meetings:
a. Everyone has been given the Great Books' administrator email & password.
b. Anyone can start the meeting using the unique permanent meeting ID.
c. We meet at a given time so it's expected "someone" will host the meeting.
d. Others will join the meeting, via Zoom, once someone hosts it.

We tested Zoom out a bit on a few more iOS and Android and Windows 10 Pro
users and all hell broke loose (as can be expected), particularly with the
iOS users (as is almost always the case with anything slightly technical).

For one example, for all participants joining the Zoom meeting, their
"name" is, by default, whatever their device is named, e.g., myiPad or
myAndroid (or whatever the device is named), whereas on the PC, the name is
blank by default.

So we had to admonish everyone, particularly on mobile devices, to make
sure to manually wipe out that default and change it to their name, if they
didn't want to show up as "moto g(7)" instead (which is what my Android
phone shows up as, by default).

On the iOS mobile devices, when they join they see a popup asking them:
"To hear others please join audio"
"Call using Internet Audio"
"Cancel"
Where we have to explain that "Internet Audio" is really just "audio"
(it says on the top when they do that: "You are using the device audio".

On Android devices, when they join they see a popup asking them:
"Please allow Zoom access permission."
"For the best meeting experience, Zoom may ask to access
to your microphone, camera, and storage" [sic]
"Got it"
Then...
"Allow Zoom to record audio?"

The Zoom controls drove some people nuts, where on both Android and iOS, by
default, the Zoom controls disappear after a few seconds.

Worse, the controls aren't even close to consistent among platforms.

So you have to tap the screen to see the control which on iPad puts all the
controls at top for a few seconds, while on an Android phone they're on
bottom mostly (but some are on top) for a few seconds. The Windows 10 Zoom
controls, by default, are far more manageable.

Even worse than that inconsistency on controls, the "3-dot settings"
options are even more highly inconsistent between platforms, where on the
iPad, the 3-dot options for participants a
o Chat
o Meeting Settings
o Virtual Background
o Raise Hand
o Disconnect Audio
Where at least you can change Meeting Settings to (what we recommend) of:
o Always Show Meeting Controls

But on Android, the 3-dot settings are different & in a different order:
o Disconnect Audio
o Raise Hand
o Hide Non-Video Participants
o Show Name when Participants Join

But worse, there doesn't (yet) seem to be an option on Android to keep the
controls showing permanently!

Luckily, in terms of privacy, in both Android and on ioS, the controls,
once you have them up, both say "Start Video" if video isn't started, and
then "Stop Video" if it is started.

One huge problem is people keep forgetting to hit the red "Leave Meeting"
link on the top left of the iPads and the "Leave" link in red at the
button on iOS and "Leave" button, but the worst issue is getting all of the
participants on audio.

Worrisome is that Zoom popped up a warning during our first long test
saying "A gift from Zoom. Running out of time? We've removed the 40-minute
time limit on your group meeting." which we didn't even know we had!
https://i.postimg.cc/sgWc9xmS/zoom02.jpg

If they turn that limit back on, then Zoom is useless for our purposes.
https://i.postimg.cc/8CBm9Yqz/zoom03.jpg

Based on those 2 popups, does Zoom have a 40-minute default limit or not?
o I don't know; do you?

Also, people don't remember to turn off their video when they don't want it
on, so we had to keep dealing with people asking "can you see me?".

Of course, the person who starts the meeting shows up as "Great Books",
simply because that's the Firstname and Lastname we gave the bogus email
account, where we handed everyone the account bogus login email address and
password "2020GreatBooks".

But we found out that the mobile Zoom apps REMEMBER who they were when they
last logged in, so we are likely going to have to start over on the concept
of having a single shared email/password/meeting-id since Zoom isn't really
set up for that concept on the mobile devices (on Windows it's easier).

Overall, we're still working out the kinks where the biggest problems seem
to be threefold:
a. The user interface between the platforms isn't even close to consistent
b. The concept of a shared account to start the meeting isn't working well
c. If Zoom turns back on the 40-minute default limit, it will be worthless
--
Usenet brings the best out of helpful adults when sharing technical value.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:22:28 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

What is a privacy-aware cross platform free personal video-tele-conference
app to host & join meetings of about a dozen participants discussing Great
Books?

UPDATE:

I only heard of Zoom yesterday, but it failed spectacularly miserably today
in longer tests of more people than just two people and the host.

*Hence Zoom will summarily be thrown out with the trash* - so we need a
actual free solution that actually works for any decent length meeting of
more than just two people and the host.

https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/201362523-Why-is-my-meeting-timing-out-
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/202460676-Will-My-Meeting-Time-Out-
"If you are a Licensed user and join a meeting and the meeting is
hosted by a Basic user. The meeting will have a 40-minute restriction."

Given that, Zoom is worthless for our purpose.

Our desired use model isn't supported anyway.
https://support.zoom.us/hc/en-us/articles/360000787483-Can-I-use-Zoom-on-multiple-devices-
"Zoom does not permit sharing accounts with multiple individuals"

The only other suggestion was Big Blue Button, but it's not a good solution
either, at least upon first inspection, due to the need for a standalone
metal-frame server.

Any other suggestion where this artificial time limit of 40 minutes is too
short, and where, oh, maybe 2 hours would be more likely a minimum time.
--
Together we can learn far more than any one of us can by doing so alone.

In article ,
Arlen Holder wrote:
....
The only other suggestion was Big Blue Button, but it's not a good solution
either, at least upon first inspection, due to the need for a standalone
metal-frame server.

What does the composition of the frame component of the server have to do
with anything?

Do they charge more or less for plastics as opposed to metal?

--
"There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." - Steve Ballmer

Arlen Holder wrote:
So far, nobody suggested anything better than Zoom, and that's what we
tested, but I love facts so if there are more facts, let's hear them.

You didn't address the Google Hangouts Meet function.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google..._Hangouts_Meet

------------
https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9282720?hl=en
Prepare to use Hangouts Meet
Before you start using Hangouts Meet, make sure you have the equipment
and access you need.
Check requirements for Hangouts Meet
Hangouts Meet access requirements
A G Suite administrator needs to turn on Meet for your
organization. If you cannot open Meet, contact your admin for help.
To create a video meeting, you need to be signed in to a G Suite
account.
To join a video meeting, you need the Meet mobile app or a
supported web browser. You do not need a G Suite account. For details,
see Supported web browsers.
Anyone inside or outside of your organization can join by selecting
the link or entering the meeting ID. Uninvited guests outside of your
organization must be approved by a meeting participant in your
organization, including users who aren’t signed in to a G Suite account.
------------

Re privacy considerations:
'
In my library, anonymity doesn't really work. In order to have a
library card or account, you must register an identity w/ the library,
which includes a photoID such as DL.

In my book club, common practice is for participants to share their names.


--
Mike Easter

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:19:56 -0000 (UTC), Kenny McCormack wrote:

The only other suggestion was Big Blue Button, but it's not a good solution
either, at least upon first inspection, due to the need for a standalone
metal-frame server.

What does the composition of the frame component of the server have to do
with anything?

Do they charge more or less for plastics as opposed to metal?

Hi Kenny McCormack,

Yours is a good adult question as it deals with the difference between:
o Bare Metal Servers
o Virtual Machines
https://vexxhost.com/blog/bare-metal-v-s-virtual-machines/

For instant context, please go back in this thread & re-read Elijah's post:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/DMZxUOMFb7M/6QJRLp48BQAJ

Read my response to him after I clicked on and not only read his cite, but
I also quoted very clearly the site's use of the term "bare metal server":
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/DMZxUOMFb7M/UVg-yKRxBQAJ

While this was _already_ covered there in this thread, we can always learn
more about the need of Big Blue Button (and other software?) for bare-metal
servers, so let's work together to flesh this need out further. OK?

Together, we can all learn more than we can by being alone, so let's flesh
out this term with respect to how it's used, where in this thread I already
pointed to the use of the term in the documentation for the Big Blue Button
installation process.

If you go back to the original post from Elijah, he had supplied this URL:
http://docs.bigbluebutton.org/2.2/install.html

If you go back to the original reply by me to Elijah, I quoted the term as
it came out of the documentation that Elijah had supplied (unlike what
we've extremely often proven with the Apple users who deny facts without
even reading the cites, I actually _read_ the cites people suggest!).

Those who also read the cite Elijah kindly supplied (if people are gonna be
kind enough to provide a cite for me, I'm going to always be adult enough
to read them), would have seen the term used in that cite.

In addition, in my response, I had quoted, verbatim, the site's use of that
term, which, I quote, again, verbatim, below:
Minimum server requirements
*Dedicated (bare metal) hardware*
...
*Why do we recommend a bare metal server*?
BigBlueButton uses FreeSWITCH for processing of incoming audio packets
and FreeSWITCH works best in a non-virtualized environment
(see FreeSWITCH recommended configurations).
If you are setting up BigBlueButton for local development on your
workstation, you can relax the server requirements a bit because
you'll be the only one using the server."
...
"If you want to install BigBlueButton on Amazon EC2, we recommend
running BigBlueButton on a c5.xlarge (or greater CPU) instance.
These newer compute instensive [sic] instances offer very close
to *bare-metal performance*.

Let's further flesh out this need as yesterday was only the first time I
had ever run into this "Big Blue Button" software.
--
Usenet is so much more valuable, and pleasant, when adults share ideas.

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 16:07:46 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

ou didn't address the Google Hangouts Meet function.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google..._Hangouts_Meet

Hi Mike,

I agree, where you're _different_ from the average Usenet poster who is
simply here solely for his amusement (e.g., Char or Carlos or JR, etc.).

So first, *thank you for being an adult* and for being adult enough to be
*purposefully helpful*, and for being adult enough to *add value* to this
thread (that's three thanks most people on this ng can't seem to earn
because they always seem to act on Usenet like children, IMHO, which
frustrates the hell out of me, (e.g., Poutnik or Rene or nospam, etc.)

Hence, for those three _adult_ reasons, I appreciate your suggestion of
Hangouts Meet, which adds to our combined tribal knowledge (which is, after
all, the entire point of Usenet) - and I appreciate the helpful links.

Personally, this week I was shocked when I had asked most people I know
what they use, as Hangouts never came up even once, but Zoom came up a
bunch of times (along with their company's commercial solutions).

It was shocking that they actually "think" Zoom will work because, one day
later, I can easily say that Zoom was doomed to fail for our purposes.

Moving forward to solve the problem, & reading links you kindly supplied:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Hangouts#Google_Hangouts_Meet

What I can zoom in on are these related technical Hangouts_Meet snippets:
o Up to 100 members per call for G Suite Basic users
o Ability to join meetings from the web or through Android or iOS apps
o Ability to call into meetings with a dial-in number
o Integration with Google Calendar for one-click meeting calls
o Screen-sharing to present documents, spreadsheets, or presentations
o Encrypted calls between all users[37]
o Real-time, AI-generated closed captioning
o The number of video feeds allowed at one time was also reduced to 8

Thank you for being purposefully helpful with the second link:
https://support.google.com/a/users/answer/9282720
where I'm not sure if the free version has _all_ the things we need, but
I'll check it out as soon as I can, since Zoom failed miserably.

If others have as good or better suggestions, now is the time to add them.
--
Usenet is so much more valuable, and pleasant, when adults share ideas.

*Is anyone on this list familiar with _Jitsi_ conferencing freeware*?
o Multi-platform open-source video conferencing
https://jitsi.org/
"At Jitsi, we believe every video chat should look and sound amazing,
between two people or 200. Whether you want to build your own massively
multi-user video conference client, or use ours, all our tools are 100%
free, open source, and WebRTC compatible."

"Web, Android, iOS, React-native, and Electron apps.
Ubuntu and Debian Packages install in minutes"

If you've used Jitsi, please let us know what you think, as it's suggested
(see below) as a privacy-aware alternative to Zoom conferencing.

As most of you know already, Zoom is taking a ton of heat for a multitude
of privacy issues, which are discussed elsewhere on this newsgroup:
o *[iOS] Zoom shares your data with Facebook*, by collector
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/plOmQt5g9Yc

In this article, is advice for consumer's privacy steps while using Zoom:
o *Zoom is a big privacy headache. Here's how you can lock it down*
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/zoom-privacy-settings
"Zoom has become the video-calling app of choice.
That doesn't mean it isn't slurping up your data"

The hints they provide a
[You] "would do well to look at alternatives. Other services,
including one called *Jitsi*, are available, but are more complicated."

"don't say anything on a call you aren't happy for Zoom to data mine
and repurpose for commercial benefit"

"She recommends using a unique email alias only for Zoom, and make
sure to clear all your cookies and temporary files after each call
to limit the tracking the service can do through your browser."

"For those accessing it through a web browser, using a privacy
respecting web browser such as Brave can also limit the amount of
cookie tracking that takes place"

"The defaults for Zoom aren't just biased in favour of overly broad
data collection for the app itself, but also for the host of any call.
A call host can record a huge information by default, including your
video, any audio or text, and can even track whether you¢re paying '
attention by looking at the webcam. "
--
Usenet allows purposefully helpful sharing of ideas for common benefit.

On 2020-04-01 03:47:30 +0000, Arlen Holder said:

*Is anyone on this list familiar with _Jitsi_ conferencing freeware*?
o Multi-platform open-source video conferencing
https://jitsi.org/
"At Jitsi, we believe every video chat should look and sound amazing,
between two people or 200. Whether you want to build your own
massively multi-user video conference client, or use ours, all our
tools are 100% free, open source, and WebRTC compatible."

"Web, Android, iOS, React-native, and Electron apps.
Ubuntu and Debian Packages install in minutes"

If you've used Jitsi, please let us know what you think, as it's suggested
(see below) as a privacy-aware alternative to Zoom conferencing.
snip

Yet again the know-nothing, name-changing troll crossposts his usual
anti-Apple fact-less garbage.

Zoom has already fixed the supposed Facebook issues in the latest
update (not that it was sending any of your actual private details
anyway).

Added the moron to the killfile YET again!! X-(

In article , Your Name
wrote:

Zoom has already fixed the supposed Facebook issues in the latest
update

so what? it has other significant problems, plus the company is guilty
of fraud.

(not that it was sending any of your actual private details
anyway).

yes it definitely was.

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 08:47:30 +0530, Arlen Holder
wrote:

*Is anyone on this list familiar with _Jitsi_ conferencing freeware*?
o Multi-platform open-source video conferencing
https://jitsi.org/
"At Jitsi, we believe every video chat should look and sound amazing,
between two people or 200. Whether you want to build your own massively
multi-user video conference client, or use ours, all our tools are 100%
free, open source, and WebRTC compatible."

"Web, Android, iOS, React-native, and Electron apps.
Ubuntu and Debian Packages install in minutes"

I haven't used it myself, but read about it.
The nice thing about jitsi is you can run your own server.

--
Regards,
Kees Nuyt