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#16
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Gibibyte
"Ken Blake" wrote in message
... Everything you say above is correct. But language is not fixed; the meaning of words changes with time, and the prefixes kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-, etc. are an example of this. Today, they represent binary magnitudes. Should that change have happened? As far as I'm concerned, no. But it did. For all practical purposes the prefixes like mebi-, with "b" inserted, are almost never used, and should be dropped, even though they are international standards. The only real exception to everyone's using the decimal terms in a binary way is disk manufacturers. They use the terms in a decimal way because it makes what offer for sale sound larger. As far as I'm concerned, it's deceptive advertising. It confuses many people and should be prohibited. They should be required to state the sizes of their drives using powers of 2, as everyone else does. Yes, I'm as heretical as you. I reckon that the meaning of "mega", "giga" etc should vary with the context in which is is used: for example kilo in kilometre means 1000, but kilo in kilobyte means 1024. kibi, mebi sound utterly stupid (like someone whose had his mouth anaesthetised at the dentist, as Rene Lamontagne put it so eloquently!). I find it very difficult to use them without an involuntary smirk ;-) I agree that disk manufacturers should be required to specify their disk sizes in power-of-two definitions of mega, giga etc - or else to say *prominently* both sizes (eg "2 TB equivalent to 1.86 TiB") which would make people stop and think "what does TiB mean - ah it must be the conversion between 1000- and 1024-based numbering". But to all intents and purposes, 1 TB is the "same" as 1 TiB (as a good approximation), in the same way that a bit rate of 10 Mbit/sec is a data-transfer rate of *approximately* 1 MB/sec [byte], allowing for overheads etc. |
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#17
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Gibibyte
Ken Blake wrote:
If I talk about a kilobyte, I mean 1,024 bytes, and so on. That is ridiculous. An 'amount' can't be ambiguous. There are 1000 amount kilobytes and 1000000 amount megabytes. So 1024 amount has to be something else which is kibibyte and 1048576 amount has to be something else which is mebibyte, which is also 1024 kibibytes. Saying 'my kilobytes' are different from standard kilobytes is nuts/ misguided. kilo has *always* been decimal. The introduction of its misuse as something else is to be condemned. It should have never happened and it is/ has/ been done away with. -- Mike Easter |
#18
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Gibibyte
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 15/11/2019 21.39, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 2019-11-15 1:44 p.m., VanguardLH wrote: NY wrote: The problem is not with the concept - which is very laudable - but the names. "Mebibyte", "gibibyte" and "tebibyte" sound like someone with a speech impediment (*) trying to say "megabyte", "gigabyte" and "terabyte". I suspect "bi" was used to denote "binary". It gave a hint to the base. ^^ ^^ Instead of using wholly new magnitude prefixes that everyone would have to learn and for which adoption would be slow, especially in the computer industry where change is the norm, they wanted magnitude prefixes that hinted at the old meanings, so people would instinctively perceive the magnitude based on the old prefixes, but also hint that the magnitude was binary instead of decimal. What would you have come up for magnitude prefixes that represented magnitudes similar to the decimal-based ones but hint it was a binary prefix? I have no idea, just not my forte. Ah, but the industry does have an idea, and the chose Gibibyte. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibibyte "The use of gigabyte (GB) to refer to 1000000000 bytes in some contexts and to 1073741824 bytes in others, sometimes in reference to the same device, has led to claims of confusion, controversies, and lawsuits. The IEC created the binary prefixes (kibi, mebi, gibi, etc.) in an attempt to reduce such confusion." Example of lawsuit. https://www.geek.com/news/western-di...r-size-562705/ "Basically, manufacturers use a decimal system whereas operating systems classify by binary system. The differences between the two methods of measurement mean that the capacity stated on hard drives is always going to be different than that shown in the operating system." Drives are listed in GB, so that's the 1,000,000,000 kind. And golly, memories are listed in GB too, when they should be listed in "something-else units" :-) So I guess the IEC rules only apply to companies that have been sued. OK, I get it now. It's a pretty clear system. Of weights and measures. Take your finger off the scale, please. So when I'm buying a steak tonight, it should be in kibigrams. Got it. Paul |
#19
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Gibibyte
"Carlos E.R." wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: Ken Blake wrote: The only real exception to everyone's using the decimal terms in a binary way is disk manufacturers. And memory (all types) since addressing is binary. Not on a rotating disk... What does that have to do with kibi, gibi, and other bi prefixes? Why are you narrowly focused on HDDs? Those aren't the only devices where capacity is measured. |
#20
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Gibibyte
On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:52:40 -0800, Mike Easter wrote:
Ken Blake wrote: If I talk about a kilobyte, I mean 1,024 bytes, and so on. That is ridiculous. An 'amount' can't be ambiguous. There are 1000 amount kilobytes and 1000000 amount megabytes. So 1024 amount has to be something else which is kibibyte and 1048576 amount has to be something else which is mebibyte, which is also 1024 kibibytes. Saying 'my kilobytes' are different from standard kilobytes is nuts/ misguided. kilo has *always* been decimal. The introduction of its misuse as something else is to be condemned. It should have never happened and it is/ has/ been done away with. I've been in telecom / IT / enterprise networking for 35-40 years and have never run into anyone on the job who uses mebi/kibi etc., so neither do I. It may be inaccurate, but at least we're all speaking the same language and that's what communication is all about. 'We know what we mean.' |
#21
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Gibibyte
"Paul" wrote in message
... Drives are listed in GB, so that's the 1,000,000,000 kind. This is GB meaning GB - the power-of-10 unit. They are not lying, but they are trading on the fact that people will think (wrongly) "this is computing, so I *assume* it means GiB". And golly, memories are listed in GB too, when they should be listed in "something-else units" :-) Presumably with RAM, it's GB meaning GiB - it makes sense for memory to be a round number in powers-of-2 so that all of it is addressable with a given number of address bits - so sizes of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc MiB/GiB. |
#22
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Gibibyte
On 2019-11-15 4:52 p.m., NY wrote:
"Ken Blake" wrote in message ... Everything you say above is correct. But language is not fixed; the meaning of words changes with time, and the prefixes kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-, etc. are an example of this. Today, they represent binary magnitudes. Should that change have happened? As far as I'm concerned, no. But it did. For all practical purposes the prefixes like mebi-, with "b" inserted, are almost never used, and should be dropped, even though they are international standards. The only real exception to everyone's using the decimal terms in a binary way is disk manufacturers. They use the terms in a decimal way because it makes what offer for sale sound larger. As far as I'm concerned, it's deceptive advertising. It confuses many people and should be prohibited. They should be required to state the sizes of their drives using powers of 2, as everyone else does. Yes, I'm as heretical as you. I reckon that the meaning of "mega", "giga" etc should vary with the context in which is is used: for example kilo in kilometre means 1000, but kilo in kilobyte means 1024. kibi, mebi sound utterly stupid (like someone whose had his mouth anaesthetised at the dentist, as Rene Lamontagne put it so eloquently!). I find it very difficult to use them without an involuntary smirk ;-) I agree that disk manufacturers should be required to specify their disk sizes in power-of-two definitions of mega, giga etc - or else to say *prominently* both sizes (eg "2 TB equivalent to 1.86 TiB") which would make people stop and think "what does TiB mean - ah it must be the conversion between 1000- and 1024-based numbering". But to all intents and purposes, 1 TB is the "same" as 1 TiB (as a good approximation), in the same way that a bit rate of 10 Mbit/sec is a data-transfer rate of *approximately* 1 MB/sec [byte], allowing for overheads etc. So what is the i series word for yottabyte? Rene |
#23
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Gibibyte
Char Jackson wrote:
Mike Easter wrote: Ken Blake wrote: If I talk about a kilobyte, I mean 1,024 bytes, and so on. That is ridiculous. An 'amount' can't be ambiguous. There are 1000 amount kilobytes and 1000000 amount megabytes. So 1024 amount has to be something else which is kibibyte and 1048576 amount has to be something else which is mebibyte, which is also 1024 kibibytes. Saying 'my kilobytes' are different from standard kilobytes is nuts/ misguided. kilo has *always* been decimal. The introduction of its misuse as something else is to be condemned. It should have never happened and it is/ has/ been done away with. I've been in telecom / IT / enterprise networking for 35-40 years and have never run into anyone on the job who uses mebi/kibi etc., so neither do I. It may be inaccurate, but at least we're all speaking the same language and that's what communication is all about. 'We know what we mean.' I will grant that there has been 'popularization' of the 'misuse', but there are numerous instances of the use of 'bad language' which needed improvement and reform. There are a few sentences on the wp article on this subject which are worth mentioning; many of those footnotes cited are from the Wayback Machine: // The kilobyte has traditionally been used to refer to 1024 bytes (210 B), a usage still common.[5][6][7] The usage of the metric prefix kilo for binary multiples arose as a convenience, because 1024 is approximately 1000.[8] - The binary interpretation of metric prefixes is still prominently used by the Microsoft Windows operating system,[9] but is deprecated or obsolete in other operating systems. In December 1998, the IEC addressed such multiple usages and definitions by creating prefixes such as kibi, mebi, gibi, etc., to unambiguously denote powers of 1024.[10] Thus the kibibyte, symbol KiB, represents 210 = 1024 bytes. These prefixes are now part of the International System of Quantities. The IEC further specified that the kilobyte should only be used to refer to 1000 bytes. // https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobyte 1998 was over 20 years ago. That is long enough for the workplace to show reformation from obsolete language. -- Mike Easter |
#24
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Gibibyte
Rene Lamontagne wrote:
So what is the i series word for yottabyte? yobi, of course. -- Mike Easter |
#25
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Gibibyte
On 2019-11-16 10:16 a.m., Mike Easter wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote: So what is the i series word for yottabyte? yobi, of course. Thanks, Rene |
#26
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Gibibyte
On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 07:57:28 -0800, Mike Easter wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Mike Easter wrote: Ken Blake wrote: If I talk about a kilobyte, I mean 1,024 bytes, and so on. That is ridiculous. An 'amount' can't be ambiguous. There are 1000 amount kilobytes and 1000000 amount megabytes. So 1024 amount has to be something else which is kibibyte and 1048576 amount has to be something else which is mebibyte, which is also 1024 kibibytes. Saying 'my kilobytes' are different from standard kilobytes is nuts/ misguided. kilo has *always* been decimal. The introduction of its misuse as something else is to be condemned. It should have never happened and it is/ has/ been done away with. I've been in telecom / IT / enterprise networking for 35-40 years and have never run into anyone on the job who uses mebi/kibi etc., so neither do I. It may be inaccurate, but at least we're all speaking the same language and that's what communication is all about. 'We know what we mean.' I will grant that there has been 'popularization' of the 'misuse', but there are numerous instances of the use of 'bad language' which needed improvement and reform. snip 1998 was over 20 years ago. That is long enough for the workplace to show reformation from obsolete language. I think that's your answer. If the 'misuse' hasn't abated by now, it probably won't ever. That's fine with me. |
#27
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Gibibyte
On 11/15/19 10:25 PM, Paul wrote:
[snip] So when I'm buying a steak tonight, it should be in kibigrams. Got it. Â*Â* Paul 1 kibigram = 2^10 grams = 1024 grams = 1.024 kilograms -- 39 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). "Religion is the original war crime." -- Michelle Malkin (Feb 26, 2005) |
#28
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Gibibyte
Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 2019-11-15 4:52 p.m., NY wrote: "Ken Blake" wrote in message ... Everything you say above is correct. But language is not fixed; the meaning of words changes with time, and the prefixes kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-, etc. are an example of this. Today, they represent binary magnitudes. Should that change have happened? As far as I'm concerned, no. But it did. For all practical purposes the prefixes like mebi-, with "b" inserted, are almost never used, and should be dropped, even though they are international standards. The only real exception to everyone's using the decimal terms in a binary way is disk manufacturers. They use the terms in a decimal way because it makes what offer for sale sound larger. As far as I'm concerned, it's deceptive advertising. It confuses many people and should be prohibited. They should be required to state the sizes of their drives using powers of 2, as everyone else does. Yes, I'm as heretical as you. I reckon that the meaning of "mega", "giga" etc should vary with the context in which is is used: for example kilo in kilometre means 1000, but kilo in kilobyte means 1024. kibi, mebi sound utterly stupid (like someone whose had his mouth anaesthetised at the dentist, as Rene Lamontagne put it so eloquently!). I find it very difficult to use them without an involuntary smirk ;-) I agree that disk manufacturers should be required to specify their disk sizes in power-of-two definitions of mega, giga etc - or else to say *prominently* both sizes (eg "2 TB equivalent to 1.86 TiB") which would make people stop and think "what does TiB mean - ah it must be the conversion between 1000- and 1024-based numbering". But to all intents and purposes, 1 TB is the "same" as 1 TiB (as a good approximation), in the same way that a bit rate of 10 Mbit/sec is a data-transfer rate of *approximately* 1 MB/sec [byte], allowing for overheads etc. So what is the i series word for yottabyte? See the table at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix Not all decimal magnitude prefixes have a binary counterpart. There are no "bi" magnitude prefixes for when the exponent is negative, like for deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, fento, att, zepto, yocto. https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html "It is suggested that in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiple prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix, and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee." I've been pronouncing the "bi" part as "beh", not "bee". Using "bee" makes it more distinguishible that you're using a binary magnitude prefix. https://www.iec.ch/si/binary.htm "As time has passed, kilobytes have grown into megabytes, then gigabytes and now terabytes. The problem is that, at the SI tera-scale (1012), the discrepancy with the binary equivalent (240) is not the 2,4 % at kilo-scale but rather approaching 10 %. At exa-scale (1018 and 260), it is nearer 20 %." The error or difference in misusing decimal prefixes for binary magnitudes gets worse as capacities grow. The difference was tolerated when magnitudes were small, but is becoming a problem as they grow. https://alexey.chernyak.id.au/prefBin.xhtml The problem with adoption is that the new prefixes have significance to only a small portion of the population: those involved with computers (and not just using them as consumers). Adoption of Celsius over Fahrenheit has been slow (only in those countries that still use Fahrenheit, like the USA). Global adoption of the binary prefixes will be even slower because it will slowly leak out from a small community where the differences matter. |
#29
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Gibibyte
On 16/11/2019 12.26, NY wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message ... Drives are listed in GB, so that's the 1,000,000,000 kind. This is GB meaning GB - the power-of-10 unit. They are not lying, but they are trading on the fact that people will think (wrongly) "this is computing, so I *assume* it means GiB". They did this from the start. On a 10 MB disk the difference is small. 10*10^6 = 10000000 10*2²0 = 10485760 Had they changed the method at some time, they would be intentionally misleading. And golly, memories are listed in GB too, when they should be listed in "something-else units" :-) I have not seen those :-? Presumably with RAM, it's GB meaning GiB - it makes sense for memory to be a round number in powers-of-2 so that all of it is addressable with a given number of address bits - so sizes of 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc MiB/GiB. Right. Consider than in RAM, the address bus works "binarily", in multiples of two. But not in disks. They work, currently, in linear sectors, as many as they can fit on the surface. And previously, in CHS counts. To them, tying to multiples of two was not necessary/wanted/desired. Even the sector size is not 512, we forget other metadata that is there, like checksums. I don't know what the actual figure is. My take on this was that calling 1024 bytes a kilobyte was an acceptable approximation at the time, as long as everyone was aware that it was an approximation. Aprox 1K=1000. As the units got bigger, the approximation was no longer negligible, so better invent a different unit and avoid the confussion. Yeah, some people hate change, but this is a needed change. I also had to change after a lifetime of using the old units. -- Cheers, Carlos. |
#30
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Gibibyte
On 2019-11-16 12:35 p.m., VanguardLH wrote:
Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 2019-11-15 4:52 p.m., NY wrote: "Ken Blake" wrote in message ... Everything you say above is correct. But language is not fixed; the meaning of words changes with time, and the prefixes kilo-, mega-, giga-, tera-, etc. are an example of this. Today, they represent binary magnitudes. Should that change have happened? As far as I'm concerned, no. But it did. For all practical purposes the prefixes like mebi-, with "b" inserted, are almost never used, and should be dropped, even though they are international standards. The only real exception to everyone's using the decimal terms in a binary way is disk manufacturers. They use the terms in a decimal way because it makes what offer for sale sound larger. As far as I'm concerned, it's deceptive advertising. It confuses many people and should be prohibited. They should be required to state the sizes of their drives using powers of 2, as everyone else does. Yes, I'm as heretical as you. I reckon that the meaning of "mega", "giga" etc should vary with the context in which is is used: for example kilo in kilometre means 1000, but kilo in kilobyte means 1024. kibi, mebi sound utterly stupid (like someone whose had his mouth anaesthetised at the dentist, as Rene Lamontagne put it so eloquently!). I find it very difficult to use them without an involuntary smirk ;-) I agree that disk manufacturers should be required to specify their disk sizes in power-of-two definitions of mega, giga etc - or else to say *prominently* both sizes (eg "2 TB equivalent to 1.86 TiB") which would make people stop and think "what does TiB mean - ah it must be the conversion between 1000- and 1024-based numbering". But to all intents and purposes, 1 TB is the "same" as 1 TiB (as a good approximation), in the same way that a bit rate of 10 Mbit/sec is a data-transfer rate of *approximately* 1 MB/sec [byte], allowing for overheads etc. So what is the i series word for yottabyte? See the table at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_prefix Not all decimal magnitude prefixes have a binary counterpart. There are no "bi" magnitude prefixes for when the exponent is negative, like for deci, centi, milli, micro, nano, pico, fento, att, zepto, yocto. https://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html "It is suggested that in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiple prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix, and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee." I've been pronouncing the "bi" part as "beh", not "bee". Using "bee" makes it more distinguishible that you're using a binary magnitude prefix. https://www.iec.ch/si/binary.htm "As time has passed, kilobytes have grown into megabytes, then gigabytes and now terabytes. The problem is that, at the SI tera-scale (1012), the discrepancy with the binary equivalent (240) is not the 2,4 % at kilo-scale but rather approaching 10 %. At exa-scale (1018 and 260), it is nearer 20 %." The error or difference in misusing decimal prefixes for binary magnitudes gets worse as capacities grow. The difference was tolerated when magnitudes were small, but is becoming a problem as they grow. https://alexey.chernyak.id.au/prefBin.xhtml The problem with adoption is that the new prefixes have significance to only a small portion of the population: those involved with computers (and not just using them as consumers). Adoption of Celsius over Fahrenheit has been slow (only in those countries that still use Fahrenheit, like the USA). Global adoption of the binary prefixes will be even slower because it will slowly leak out from a small community where the differences matter. Thanks for all the info, VanguardLH But as you say all these larger numbers are of interest to a limited group of computer experts and people who deal in large system data farms, etc. I really as a computer user should not clutter my head with stuff that is of no real concern or value to me. Rene |
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