Problem with Dell 8200

I have a Dell Dimension 8200, Seagate Barracuda
7200 HD 160Gb with XP, SP3, with Spywareblaster,
Avast, Malwarebytes, SuperAntispyware and Windows
firewall.

Recently, I've noticed that when I power it up the
C and D lights(A,B,C,D)above the mouse/keyboard
connections in the rear have yellow lights instead
of green and it emits a sound but then they clear.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2u4othf.jpg

This has never happened before and the only thing
I've done is to update Firefox via Help About
Firefox.

I don't use the 8200 except for backup purposes
should I need it and I don't surf the web with it.
I only update the programs when needed and run scans.
That's about all I do with it.

Also, in passing the Hotmail hourglass icon which
flashes back and forth fails to connect in both the
Administrators Account and the User Account. I assume
it's because it's out of date because Hotmail is now
Outlook but is there a way to remove it? Or would that
cause unseen problems?


Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I have a Dell Dimension 8200, Seagate Barracuda
7200 HD 160Gb with XP, SP3, with Spywareblaster,
Avast, Malwarebytes, SuperAntispyware and Windows
firewall.

Recently, I've noticed that when I power it up the
C and D lights(A,B,C,D)above the mouse/keyboard
connections in the rear have yellow lights instead
of green and it emits a sound but then they clear.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2u4othf.jpg

This has never happened before and the only thing
I've done is to update Firefox via Help About
Firefox.

I don't use the 8200 except for backup purposes
should I need it and I don't surf the web with it.
I only update the programs when needed and run scans.
That's about all I do with it.

Also, in passing the Hotmail hourglass icon which
flashes back and forth fails to connect in both the
Administrators Account and the User Account. I assume
it's because it's out of date because Hotmail is now
Outlook but is there a way to remove it? Or would that
cause unseen problems?


Thanks,
Robert

Review the LED pattern again, against the known values
on page 2 here.

http://downloads.dell.com/Manuals/al...uide_en-us.pdf

The LEDs are bi-colored. The LEDs can be completely off,
yellow on, or green on. The yellow and green values
are presumably meant to indicate logic 0's and logic 1's.
All green should be the state at hand-off to the OS.

While it is physically possible for two LEDs to be
completely off, while the other two LEDs are yellow,
no entry in the table corresponds to that. A LED defect
could cause the weird code, a driver IC defect could
do it, or the code loaded by the processor and the
BIOS code isn't loading a fully defined value
(highly unlikely).

The LEDs on the back, would be four
instances of a circuit like this.
Sample operating table
|\
---| \-----+ Q Q R LED output
|/ | 0 0 Off
+-+--+ 0 1 Yellow
| | Bi-color LED 1 0 Green
--- --- Back to back diodes 1 1 Off
\ / / \ Inside a two-legged
--- --- transparent housing
| |
+-+--+
|\ |
---| \-----+ R
|/

When it wants the LEDs lit, it makes sure the driver
state sets "Q" and "R" to different voltage values.
Of the two internal LEDs, when "Q" and "R" are
at different voltage levels, one LED is reverse
biased and one LED is forward biased. The forward
biased one lights up. The yellow and green colors
cannot exist at the same time. Only one diode
of the two can be lit.

So when two LEDs aren't lit, it means their Q and R
nodes are at the same voltage level. A defect in the
drivers could "limit" the expression of values. Normally
in hardware design, the equipment does "lamp test" to
prove all indicators work. Which is difficult to do
with bi-color LEDs. The green LEDs certainly get tested,
because that is supposed to be the normal operating
mode for those LEDs. But we can't be absolutely
sure all the yellow diodes are working.

There are a number of potential reasons for the LED
pattern, but it's probably best to assume the BIOS
is doing something goofy. And Google for that
particular goofy pattern.

The Dimension 8200 uses RDRAM memory, to give people
some idea how old the motherboard is. I hope it predates
the ICH5 "blown Southbridge" chip issue. ICH4 Southbridge
was also supposed to have a potential problem, but I've
never received a report of such. Whereas, I've probably
received around 30 reports of blown ICH5 chips (dead USB
or a burn mark on the top surface of the chip). If something
like this had happened, chances are the LEDs would
stay off completely and it would be "dead in the water".
So that's not the fault type.

*******

Summary:

Record your observations again (both LEDs and beep pattern),
comparing to the manual in case it's an actual valid code
of some sort. Your description sounds like an invalid
code, and that's going to be pretty hard to track
down with a search engine (using other user reports
of strange behavior).

I expect the behavior means something, but at this point,
unless it matches a value from the manual, I can't guess
what that is.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
| | Bi-color LED 1 0 Green
--- --- Back to back diodes 1 1 Off
\ / / \ Inside a two-legged
--- --- transparent housing
[]
biased one lights up. The yellow and green colors
cannot exist at the same time. Only one diode
of the two can be lit.
[]
But if fed with an alternating signal of sufficient frequency (a few
tens of hertz - it varies between people), they can appear to be.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone learns from science. It all depends how you use the knowledge. - "Gil
Grissom" (CSI).

Hello Paul,

I checked again and at first the yellow
lights were at A,D (IDE Bus failure)then
C, D and stayed there until they all went
green.

The sound is more like a dial-up modem and
is constant

When logging on, and attempting to Turn Off
it doesn't respond or Restarting. I brought up
Task Manager and that seemed to clear it but
this has happened 3 times now.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Hello Paul,

I checked again and at first the yellow
lights were at A,D (IDE Bus failure)then
C, D and stayed there until they all went
green.

The sound is more like a dial-up modem and
is constant

When logging on, and attempting to Turn Off
it doesn't respond or Restarting. I brought up
Task Manager and that seemed to clear it but
this has happened 3 times now.

Robert

I think my next step would be "visual inspection".

Opening up the door of the unit (with computer
unplugged), for a look.

This is the motherboard. Or so it is claimed here.

http://ebay.redplanettrading.com/mot...e598-1-800.jpg

One thing you check for, on modern computers, is
leaking electrolytic capacitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

The tops of the caps have pressure relief seams stamped
into the metal. If the caps begin to fail, and pressure
builds inside, the seams open up for safety. The capacitor
rapidly dries out. Some Dells have a high failure rate (95%
of same model fail). Your 8200 is older and might not
be prone to this sort of thing. But so many pieces
of equipment suffer this problem, you have to check.

I lost two power supplies here to leaking caps. I've
lost zero motherboards so far.

You can check to make sure the plugin cards are secure,
and the RAM is fully seated. The RAM ejector latches
should be in the fully upright position (locked). The
video card has a heel lock, so if you were thinking
of pulling out the video card for a look, the green
heel lock will hold it in place. The tab must be
deflected slightly, so it doesn't stay hooked
into the hole at the base of the video card.
(Naturally, you have to remove the screw holding
the faceplate - some cases are screwless, while
all of mine use a screw for that function.)

I don't recommend actually pulling any cards at the
moment. I'm not a fan of aggressive cleaning
procedures. I don't like the usage of compressed
air - the thing is, you can generate static electricity
any time dust moves at high velocity. Similarly,
I'm not a fan of "pink eraser" treatment for
electrical contacts. The gold on the contacts is
thin enough as it is. The most aggressive cleaning
I use, is isopropyl alcohol and a cleaning cloth.
And only if visible dirt is present.

So for the moment, you don't really need to handle
anything. Just have a look first for leaking caps.

I would also likely reach for my multimeter and
check the power supply voltage levels.

When one of my power supplies failed here, the
eventual symptom that caught my eye, was a good
old fashioned OS crash. Then I had to do something
about it. My power supply had leaking caps inside.
And it would be difficult to catch the supply
mis-behaving, because the period of instability
caused by leaking caps, at least when the trouble
is just starting, only lasts for 30 seconds. Until
the caps warm up a bit. If you still have good hearing,
you may even hear a "sizzling" sound coming from the
5V bypass caps on the power supply. The "sizzling" sound
stops after 30 seconds or so. But as the problem
gets worse, eventually the computer crashes and you
have to fix the supply (with a new one).

At this point, observation is still the best policy.

Some brands of supplies, more drastic action is
required. There were some "Bestec" branded supplies,
when they fail, they damage other computer
components. I would not be quite so slow to react,
if one of those was present inside. The brand is
printed on the label on the side of the power supply,
so you have some warning. I think the 5V rail on those,
shoots up to 7V or 8V or so, and it fries stuff.

Have a look inside, and see if any "easy" problems
are visible. I would only pull the power supply
out of the unit, if visible symptoms pointed to it.
(Like a "puff of smoke" coming from the PSU. That's
a sign of bad caps too.)

If you want to remove components from their sockets,
you should really be "clipped in to the chassis" with
an antistatic strap.

The alligator clip goes onto an I/O screw in the
I/O plate area. That's a good place to pick up a
ground connection. The blue elastic section fastens
around your wrist. The purpose of this gadget, is
to bring your body electrical potential to the same
potential as the chassis. The cabling is "mildly
conductive", around 1Megohm to 10Megohms, and intended
to drain static charge off the things you handle... slowly.
If you substitute a piece of ordinary wire and wrap it
around your wrist, that isn't as good, as it drains
static instantly, with high current flows as a result.

http://www.radioshack.com/startech-c.../55011238.html

Note that, the $20 is a terrible price for one of those.
Way too much.

For example, my store here has one for $7.40, and the
prices here aren't that good either. For example, they
charge $3.00 for an LED I can buy on the Internet for
$0.22. But still, the $7.40 price is better than the
Radio Shack. Those straps used to be around $10.

http://www.active123.com/AST1-Antist...-Prodview.html

The LED symptoms so far, are not suggestive of a "sane"
response. A long beep code could be memory or video,
while in some cases, continuous beeps are thermal
(CPU overheat). But if the thing was overheating,
you'd either hear no fan running (fan failure),
or you'd hear the fan running like in a vacuum cleaner.
Dell fans spool up quite a bit, if the CPU claims
to be overheating. The fan is capable of quite a
high CFM (cubic feet per minute) rating, when
flat out.

Oh, one other failure mode on those. You will see
in the motherboard picture, a metal strap which holds
the Northbridge heatsink in place. Sometimes, the peg
soldered at either end of that, pulls out of the motherboard.
Dell knows that is going to happen. The idiots place
electrical sensing on the metal strap. If the strap
becomes disconnected, a logic circuit detects the
strap isn't holding the heatsink in place, and it
prevents the computer from starting. You would think
that if they knew it was going to happen, they would
have used screws and bolts to hold that thing in place.

Keep your eyes and ears peeled, for symptoms...

If I could find a direct match for your symptoms
in a Google search, I'd tell you. But I'm not
getting any good matches right now. And this is
more a problem with search engines, than a lack
of examples. I suspect a good many 8200s have
had this sort of problem. The trick will be finding
a thread discussing it.

Paul

Hello Paul,

I did as you suggested and I could not
find any bulged caps.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2a5ke1j.jpg

However there's allot of dust. Should I
buy a can of compressed air to clean it?
Should I also buy an anti-static strap
on eBay?

Thanks,
Robert

after putting it back together I
noticed that the top fan wasn't
moving.

I gently touched it with a slim
wooden dowel and it started going
again.

Halfway through SuperAntispyware
scan it came up with the same error
lights and sound as Start-up! Then it
rebooted.

I checked the fans again and both
are running.

Robert

I tried to re-run the SuperAntipsyware and it
did not respond and then opened Avast for a
full scan and each time I tried to start it the
buttons flashed. So I called up Task Manager
to close it then started SuperAntispyware again
and its working normally so far,..........

Robert

I ran a full Antispyware scan then started
a Avast scan and it did the same thing again
as it does at Start-up halfway through the
scan then re-booted.

Something is definitely wrong!

It also 'seems' nosier. Could just be me or
the fans need oiling.


Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Hello Paul,

I did as you suggested and I could not
find any bulged caps.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2a5ke1j.jpg

However there's allot of dust. Should I
buy a can of compressed air to clean it?
Should I also buy an anti-static strap
on eBay?

Thanks,
Robert

I don't see a lot of dust buildup.

1) The second DIMM from the left in your photo, the bottom
lock latch isn't vertical. Check (with power unplugged)
that the DIMM is fully seated.

2) Where is the cowling over the CPU heatsink ?
Doesn't the fan in the left of the picture, normally
draw air through the CPU heatsink ? I don't
see a good forced-air cooling solution there
right now. The cover is meant to cause the fan on
the left, to pull air through the CPU heatsink.

Fans do wear, and eventually need replacement. In the case
of the Dell (main fan), that one is five pin and "Dell Special".
You search for those online via the part number on the fan.
Not an item you'll find at RadioShack.

Fans can have speed control circuits - the combination
of a "low" setting for speed, plus a fan bearing with
friction, can cause a low fan speed.

Lubricating fans is a double-edged sword. On the
one hand, it could free up the bearing. But on the
other hand, the oil collects dust and may cause
the fan to jam up again a month or two later.

Our preventive maintenance interval at work, for our products,
was three years continuous operation (24/7) before fan replacement.
It depends on the quality of the fan, as to how many thousand
hours you can expect from it.

Your picture doesn't show a lot of dust. I wouldn't
be blasting that in an effort to make it spotless.
You want dust removal, if there is so much it might
"blanket" something and cause it to heat up.

Some Dell computers come with a hardware diagnostic,
but don't expect miracles from such things. You're just
as likely to notice some other symptoms, before
a diagnostic tells you something. In my personal
experience, I've only seen one good diagnostic, and
that came with a Sun Microsystems computer. Most other
diagnostics I've looked at, are window dressing, and
are testing stuff that will probably never fail.

If the "problem" as you see it, only happens after
time is passed, you could blame it on heat. If it
happens relatively rapidly, it could be a RAM problem.
But the symptoms in your case, are not ringing a bell.
A CPU or RAM problem, shouldn't affect the ability to
stop tasks or request a shutdown.

If the BIOS screen had a hardware monitor page (listing
temperatures), you could check the CPU temperature in there.

So the only thing slightly amiss, is there doesn't seem
to be a plastic cover over the CPU heatsink that causes
forced airflow over the fins. Maybe you've removed
that for the picture, which is fine. Your caps look
good, as you say. Double check that the second DIMM from
the left, is fully seated (with all power off, plug pulled).

The reason for power removal, is slots remain "hot", and
returning a hardware component to a slot, if things
are slightly askew on insertion, a wrong potential can
get applied to an electrical contact. To prevent that, that's
why we remove power in there. It's not for shock hazard
or anything. The ATX supply is relatively well protected
from unintentional intrusion.

Paul

Hello Paul,

Here's an older picture with the hood,

http://i60.tinypic.com/2m51mqh.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2j3i814.jpg

I didn't take it off but just swung it out of
the way so I could get a clear shot of the caps.

I'll check the second Dimm as you suggest and
see if that helps.

I've oiled the fan behind the green cover already
and covered it back up with the same sticker that
was covering it to prevent dust.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Hello Paul,

Here's an older picture with the hood,

http://i60.tinypic.com/2m51mqh.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2j3i814.jpg

I didn't take it off but just swung it out of
the way so I could get a clear shot of the caps.

I'll check the second Dimm as you suggest and
see if that helps.

I've oiled the fan behind the green cover already
and covered it back up with the same sticker that
was covering it to prevent dust.

Robert

The supply could be a "5251" 250W, with Dell branding.
So it's not Bestec branded.

I can't find any evidence of a built-in hardware
monitor that measures voltage and CPU temperature.
If one of those is present, it is easier than using
a multimeter to gather some info from the machine.

Paul

Hello Paul,

I did as you suggested and pressed the 2nd DIMM
into place


http://i57.tinypic.com/wh0ftj.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/qq77rq.jpg

but it did the same thing again at Start-up.

You mean this?

http://www.amazon.com/PS-5251-2DS-DE.../dp/B0056I5SK8

Robert

On the User Account I again tried to start a
Avast scan and it opened ok but when I selected
scan for viruses all the buttons started blinking.

I called up Task manager to end the program then
with Task Manager still open I re-tried it. The
scan did complete successfully.

I then open SuperAntiSpware and ran a full scan
which also completed successfully. I then opened
malwarebytes and ran a scan which finished
successfully.

Maybe with the Task Manager open has something
to do with it?

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
On the User Account I again tried to start a
Avast scan and it opened ok but when I selected
scan for viruses all the buttons started blinking.

I called up Task manager to end the program then
with Task Manager still open I re-tried it. The
scan did complete successfully.

I then open SuperAntiSpware and ran a full scan
which also completed successfully. I then opened
malwarebytes and ran a scan which finished
successfully.

Maybe with the Task Manager open has something
to do with it?

Robert


Dell has hardware diagnostics, which you can
try out if you want.

http://www.dell.com/support/home/us/...n-8200/drivers

Dell 32 Bit Diagnostics (Graphical User Interface version), A1206
View details
Diagnostics - Release date 30 Jan 2003, Last Updated 03 Nov 2011
Other file formats available

Version A1206,A1206
Download File

The download link there, gives "cdd1206.exe". 1,785,776 bytes.
That appears to be a program you can run in Windows.

(The file CD120610.exe 2,422,008 bytes appears to be a three floppy
boot diskette set, intended for testing if Windows won't boot. The files
aren't labeled, so I'm using 7ZIP to figure out what they do.)

I'd stick with the main cdd1206.exe download for now, and
have it "test all devices". With such diagnostics, there are
a few things that are silly. Such as a microphone recording
test. Missing that one, won't have anything to do with your
problem. And some of them have Parallel Port tests, where
perhaps they're expecting a peripheral device to be connected,
as a means to check the port functions a bit. Any hardware
test where you don't have connected hardware, it would be
pretty difficult to get any helpful feedback. (If you
don't have anything connected to the Parallel port, then
just skip the test.)

But the main things, like having the diagnostic check basic
CPU operation, a quick memory test, a check of rhe hard
drive SMART statistics, is a start.

While you can arrange other means of doing these tests
(Linux LiveCD), even those aren't trouble free. I was
noticing one post, where someone said a recent Ubuntu
CD won't boot on the 8200.

The Dell Diagnostic on the other hand, as long as you
can figure out how to use it, is a faster path to
getting the job done. I can't waste your time with
Linux CDs that don't actually work.

Paul