5 Myths About Linux That Scares Away New Users

On 06/06/2017 07:59, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 6/5/2017 1:46 PM, Paul wrote:
dave wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 12:13:12 +0100, David B. wrote:

Are there really myths about Linux? I mean there are plenty of facts
about Linux and how powerful and secure it is that the entire tech
world
is relying on it.

Yes, the world relies on Linux to power its technologies but we are
not
talking about the ‘industrial Linux’. We are talking the desktop
Linux.
The Linux that a normal user should be using as its daily driver for
surfing web, for document editing, listening to music and casual
gaming.

When it comes to the desktop version, there are actually some famous
myths about Linux and if one believes them, he/she will be very
reluctant to use Linux.

5 myths about Linux that you shouldn’t believe .....

https://itsfoss.com/myths-about-linux

Rather than engage in endless discussions about the subject, simply
download a standalone version and try it.
If you want to really evaluate it, install as a dual boot system.
The main advantage of Linux is you can do all this without cost, so
it's a little pointless comparing to say the Mac OS where you would
have to purchase a new machine.
The windows programs I would have liked to keep don't seem to work
in wine but there are Linux applications that work well, and quite a
few are cross platform.

But the guy who posted this, posted it from his Mac,
and he has zero interest in anything here. He probably
doesn't even know he's in a Windows 10 group.

Paul


What a *very* strange thing to say, Paul.

Surely when you check the header of this post you'll be able to
determine that I'm posting from my Laptop which uses the Windows 10
operating system? Of course I know I'm in the Windows 10 group!!!

FWIW, I also have Linux Mint set up on my Dell desktop machine so I
could post from there should I so wish. When at home - not on board my
narrowboat - I invariably use my iMac because it's my best computer by
far!

HTH


Your posts are a pretense.

That is grossly unfair. There must be SOME folk reading here who have
had just an inkling that they might wish to learn more about Linux.

And Linux advocacy belongs in COLA. Not here.

I didn't know that group existed - but I've now found it. Thanks. :-)

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it."

On 6/6/2017 7:43 AM, noel wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 00:59:52 -0700, mike wrote:

On 6/5/2017 10:37 PM, noel wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 18:55:24 -0400, Neil wrote:

On 6/5/2017 5:57 PM, noel wrote:

I've been using linux since early 90's, not just for servers but for
desktop, and laptop, its been my future since then, There's nothing I
cant do on linux I can do on windows, in fact I can do more with
greater stability, yes I do use windows, and win10 daily in
performance of my duties, if I could use linux there, I would! Havent
had a windows desktop at home for a many many years.

How do your two statements, "There's nothing I cant do on linux I can
do on windows..." and, "I do use windows, and win10 daily in
performance of my duties, if I could use linux there I would!" not
contradict themselves???


At work I have no choice but to use their hardware, which comes with
win10 installed, so I use it daily, at home its linux only, if I could
do what I want with my work PC, I would wipe win10 and install linux,
is that clear enough now

I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal with
it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong key
combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.
Even programs like Firefox running native on different OS's was a PITA.
Same top menu, but they moved the contents around.

Ahh still use openoffice and libreoffice, even on win10, MS office 365 is
a cash grab compared to buy upfront office with subscription, and no, we
would never ever use the cloud *gawd i hate using that marketing hype
term* to store our documents

At some point, it would be good to acknowledge that users have different
levels of need. If one can do everything they need to with OO/LO, their
needs are pretty light-weight. Even the word processors in OO/LO fall
apart over fairly simple formatting, and the most recent "upgrade"
actually destroyed some of my legacy .odt documents. Their spreadsheets
are quite lame, unable to do more than the most elementary work
reliably. More than a few cross-referenced pages, and you're done.
Typical of open-source software, there is little commitment to backwards
compatibility, and one never knows what the next iteration will bring or
break. Personal users can put up with that kind of thing, but pros would
have to be out of their minds to depend on it.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 6/6/2017 6:32 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal
with it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong
key combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.

Ugh! Try Tools Customize and knock yourself out! Remap hotkeys and
menus to whatever you want. Maybe a little googling you might find
someone has already done the configuration...

I have a perfectly good pickup truck.

Somebody offers me a free car with the brake and clutch pedals
swapped and a task to google for
people who may have made theirs into a means to haul stuff.
The only advantage
is that nobody would want to steal it.

Why in the name of all that is GNU would I want to do that?

Offer me a real pickup truck that can haul EVERYTHING I need
and
can be repaired by any shop
and
can be used by any of my peeps without tears
and
supports all the hardware/software I can get at any shop
and just works
and
I can google a problem/issue and find relevant help and a fix
that just works
and
and I'm all in.

mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:32 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal
with it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong
key combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.

Ugh! Try Tools Customize and knock yourself out! Remap hotkeys and
menus to whatever you want. Maybe a little googling you might find
someone has already done the configuration...

I have a perfectly good pickup truck.

Somebody offers me a free car with the brake and clutch pedals
swapped and a task to google for
people who may have made theirs into a means to haul stuff.

snipped the rest of the stupid analogy

You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
*THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
Word may have a different opinion.


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote


| You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
| *THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
| Word may have a different opinion.
|

MS created standards and pushed them. They
do break things sometimes. (The ribbon menu is
a good example.) But in general, using Windows
software, even from 3rd parties, means you know
what to expect. File, Edit, View menus have mostly
predictable submenus. "Hotkeys" are standard. It
can be boring as a programmer, but it means that
people can quickly learn how to use new software.

LO *should* work the same as MS Office because
that's the whole point. LO was made to replace MS
Office. It serves little purpose if it's not a usable
replacement.

GIMP is another example of the same problem. It
still doesn't have a true MDI (multi-document interface).
The windows and toolbars float around nonsensically.
File - SaveAs doesn't lead to a normal SaveAs
dialogue. It only allows one to save to GIMP's pointless
"native" format. To actually save a file? File - Export.
The GIMPians felt a need to market their format on
the File menu! That kind of thing is a big problem
for usability. The software (and the OS) should simply
disappear as much as possible. It definitely shouldn't
have an attitude. So the analogy of reversed gas and
brake pedals is very much apropos. It's an example of a
frivolous change that causes problems every time the
functionality is used.

Mayayana wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote


| You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
| *THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
| Word may have a different opinion.
|

MS created standards and pushed them. They
do break things sometimes. (The ribbon menu is
a good example.) But in general, using Windows
software, even from 3rd parties, means you know
what to expect. File, Edit, View menus have mostly
predictable submenus. "Hotkeys" are standard. It
can be boring as a programmer, but it means that
people can quickly learn how to use new software.

LO *should* work the same as MS Office because
that's the whole point. LO was made to replace MS
Office. It serves little purpose if it's not a usable
replacement.

GIMP is another example of the same problem. It
still doesn't have a true MDI (multi-document interface).
The windows and toolbars float around nonsensically.
File - SaveAs doesn't lead to a normal SaveAs
dialogue. It only allows one to save to GIMP's pointless
"native" format. To actually save a file? File - Export.
The GIMPians felt a need to market their format on
the File menu! That kind of thing is a big problem
for usability. The software (and the OS) should simply
disappear as much as possible. It definitely shouldn't
have an attitude. So the analogy of reversed gas and
brake pedals is very much apropos. It's an example of a
frivolous change that causes problems every time the
functionality is used.

That's why I run GIMP 2.4.7 on this machine (in Windows).

There's no Export As on 2.4.7, and my blood
pressure stays in check :-) What more could you
ask for.

It would take too long to write an article about
LO, so I won't bother :-)

Paul

On 6/6/2017 6:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:32 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal
with it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong
key combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.

Ugh! Try Tools Customize and knock yourself out! Remap hotkeys and
menus to whatever you want. Maybe a little googling you might find
someone has already done the configuration...

I have a perfectly good pickup truck.

Somebody offers me a free car with the brake and clutch pedals
swapped and a task to google for
people who may have made theirs into a means to haul stuff.

snipped the rest of the stupid analogy

You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
*THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
Word may have a different opinion.



NO, it's not an assumption about what should be.
It's the way word processing IS in the real world.

There is absolutely zero that any linux can do about it.
If you wish to penetrate a market that is as entrenched as MSOFFICE,
you have no choice but to comply with the way it IS.
If a typical user can't easily switch between MSOFFICE and OpenOffice,
without skipping a beat, you ain't done.
You have to match MSOffice first and continuously as it evolves.
Until you have sufficient market acceptance, you can't go off the
reservation no matter how much you think your way is superior.
It goes without saying that you have to standardize on ONE version
of the office suite and stick with it.

Everywhere you look in the desktop linux computing platform, you find
these kinds of issues. Fixing one doesn't help much.
You have to fix ALL the issues in programs that many people use
AND
at least have a tolerable alternative for all the rest.
There is no way that can happen in the free-for-all dowhateveryouwant
linux chaos.
Add to that the issue that nobody in linux development gives a rats
ass whether anybody else uses desktop linux. There is nobody leading
the charge
and nobody would follow a leader anyway.

There is no viable alternative to windows for joe average.
At this rate, desktop linux will never make the cut.

But desktop linux does make a fine hobby to keep one occupied
when there's nothing on TV.

On 07/06/2017 06:16, mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:32 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal
with it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong
key combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.

Ugh! Try Tools Customize and knock yourself out! Remap hotkeys and
menus to whatever you want. Maybe a little googling you might find
someone has already done the configuration...

I have a perfectly good pickup truck.

Somebody offers me a free car with the brake and clutch pedals
swapped and a task to google for
people who may have made theirs into a means to haul stuff.

snipped the rest of the stupid analogy

You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
*THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
Word may have a different opinion.



NO, it's not an assumption about what should be.
It's the way word processing IS in the real world.

There is absolutely zero that any linux can do about it.
If you wish to penetrate a market that is as entrenched as MSOFFICE,
you have no choice but to comply with the way it IS.
If a typical user can't easily switch between MSOFFICE and OpenOffice,
without skipping a beat, you ain't done.
You have to match MSOffice first and continuously as it evolves.
Until you have sufficient market acceptance, you can't go off the
reservation no matter how much you think your way is superior.
It goes without saying that you have to standardize on ONE version
of the office suite and stick with it.

Everywhere you look in the desktop linux computing platform, you find
these kinds of issues. Fixing one doesn't help much.
You have to fix ALL the issues in programs that many people use
AND
at least have a tolerable alternative for all the rest.
There is no way that can happen in the free-for-all dowhateveryouwant
linux chaos.
Add to that the issue that nobody in linux development gives a rats
ass whether anybody else uses desktop linux. There is nobody leading
the charge
and nobody would follow a leader anyway.

There is no viable alternative to windows for joe average.
At this rate, desktop linux will never make the cut.

But desktop linux does make a fine hobby to keep one occupied
when there's nothing on TV.

For the most part I pretty much agree with you, Mike.

However, for what *I* do, I love my Apple iMac with OS X.

I had an email from Apple yesterday to advise that they have launched a
NEW version of the iMac. This one I'm using is getting a bit long in the
tooth, so I might just treat myself to a new one! ;-)

https://www.apple.com/imac/

There's a new operating system being launched in the autumn though (High
Sierra) so I may wait just a little bit longer before making my
purchase! ;-)

--
"Do something wonderful, people may imitate it."

On 6/7/2017 12:14 AM, David B. wrote:


However, for what *I* do, I love my Apple iMac with OS X.

I had an email from Apple yesterday to advise that they have launched a
NEW version of the iMac. This one I'm using is getting a bit long in the
tooth, so I might just treat myself to a new one! ;-)

https://www.apple.com/imac/

There's a new operating system being launched in the autumn though (High
Sierra) so I may wait just a little bit longer before making my
purchase! ;-)

I've only played with a couple of mac's back in the day.
I quickly discovered that I couldn't do anything without spending
money.
Spending money violates my terms of service so I had to give up. ;-)

On 07/06/2017 09:53, mike wrote:
On 6/7/2017 12:14 AM, David B. wrote:


However, for what *I* do, I love my Apple iMac with OS X.

I had an email from Apple yesterday to advise that they have launched a
NEW version of the iMac. This one I'm using is getting a bit long in the
tooth, so I might just treat myself to a new one! ;-)

https://www.apple.com/imac/

There's a new operating system being launched in the autumn though (High
Sierra) so I may wait just a little bit longer before making my
purchase! ;-)

I've only played with a couple of mac's back in the day.
I quickly discovered that I couldn't do anything without spending
money.

May I suggest that you spend just TIME in an Apple Store and try out the
modern machines? You may be surprised!

Spending money violates my terms of service so I had to give up. ;-)

Haha! :-D

--
Regards,
David B.

On 6/6/17 7:31 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Big Al" wrote

| What the real problem is to convert to linux IMHO is the amount and type
| of stuff you do on an OS. Heavy gamers for example just can't move,
| again IMHO.
|

And people who use MS Office... And people
who use Photoshop... I use Libre Office, but
I don't need it professionally, so it works for me.
LO will not accurately reproduce complex DOCX
layouts with tables. Anyone who *really* uses
MS Office can't afford to switch. It's similar with
any commercial software that's not on Linux.

I'm not sure even Office successfully reproduces their own formats
accurately. :-(

What irritates me most, in a discussion like this, is the realization
people end up using Office and it's overkill for their needs. Why do
they use it? I don't really know, but I think the user simply doesn't
know how to go about researching, testing, and the choosing the software
that meets their needs, or just slightly exceeds it. So they use what
someone else tells them they need.

For example... I met a senior citizen a couple years ago who wanted to
write a book about... "something" local. I don't remember what that
was. Someone gave her a Windows computer, and told her she needed Word.
Somehow, the screen display had been rotated 90Ëš and she couldn't fix
that. She barely knew how to turn it on. :-(

That was my first experience with something after W7, but eventually I
figured out how to fix it.

But she'd been trying to use Word, and was hugely frustrated with the
interface. The basic problem was she was in kindergarten, and was
trying to use a program intended to be used in high school. I got her
started with WordPad, and away she went. It was not above her
beginner's knowledge.

I had planned on moving her up a "notch or two" to a more sophisticated
program when she was ready, but she had to move out of state for medical
reasons, and I don't know how things turned out.

Even with LO having a somewhat professional
polish, the help is a separate download. Do they
really imagine that most people don't need help
docs in such complex software? It can't be that
they want to minimize download size. I'm stuck
installing the whole wildly bloated mess despite
only using Writer.

I really don't have a problem with a separate help file. To me, that's
no different that Ford does things one way, and Chevrolet another.

But the option to install just the components you want is nice.

Those kinds of quirks are not suitable in
commercial software. The *only* reason I use LO
is because MS Office is grossly overpriced and
I need something to make business receipts,
contracts, business cards, etc. My needs are
small, so I put up with the horrendous bloat in
order to do what I need to. (Which is not to say
that MS Office is not also bloated. But that's not
a justification for sloppiness.)

You don't *have* to use LO in your case. There's at least another 20
office suites out there you can try. Personally, I like Softmaker Office.

Unless you want something that works "*exactly* like Office, and then
you're screwed. :-(

Also, most of the people here would have to give
up the work they've put into being competent on
Windows. I write my own software and I work with
Windows scripting. I'm familiar with the Registry
as well as the Win32 API. Many people in these
groups are similar. What's the draw to make me
throw all that away and go to Linux? There isn't
any.

Obviously, I'm using a Mac, El Capitan. Personally, I don't think much
of the direction both MS and Apple are taking for tracking my usage. On
my W10 computer, I used a program called Blackbird to turn all their
tracking and telemetry off. I have no use for Cortana. Or Siri for
that matter.

Screenshots are easier on the Mac, speech recognition is better on Windows.

So for me, there's nothing being offered with the current MS and Apple
OSes that give me any value. Newer and faster hardware is good, but
that generally is where it ends for me.

Then there's small shareware-type software.
Even Macs lack support in that area. Where
Windows users might have a choice of 5 free
programs, Mac users will all name the same
paid program, if they have options at all. On
Linux? "Oh, yeah, there's a guy in Romania who
started on something like that 3 years ago. You
should contact him. Maybe you can contribute
code to the upcoming version 0.01 beta. He's a
nice guy. It'll be fun!"

My experience with other Mac users is they are not "computer people".
So they generally don't know about shareware, cross platform, free
software like LO.

I'm not sure Apple "targets" wealthier people, but most of the users I
know are better off financially. Then again, my impression about the
Mac is they tend to be a leader, MS tends to be a follower. Plus Apple
seems to have a better handle on what people will buy than MS. Where is
MS's phone and iPod?

This topic came up recently in one of these
groups and I noted that Linux doesn't even seem
to have an easy-to-use option for a firewall that
can block outgoing on a per-process basis. That
seems like a very basic firewall function to me on
a SOHo Desktop computer. I don't go online on
Windows without it. In classic Linux fashion, someone
made my point for me, providing a link to some kind
of undocumented Linux code mess with a cute name,
for which I could download source code and attempt
compiling.... And if I'm very adept in C++ I might
even be able to figure out what the mess was
before compiling it.

Most people know nothing of firewalls, IMO. My nephew installed a third
party firewall on his parents' computers. When the firewall popped up
asking if they wanted to let this or that through, they were clueless.
So they let it go through. What good is that?

I just leave the default firewall alone, let it do it's thing. And
that's probably good enough for over 95% of users.

The Linux salespeople would do better to be
honest and say, "Look, if you need a cheap
computer for web browsing, this might serve
your needs." Instead they bend the truth,
yapping about how Linux has GIMP, Libre Office,
Thunderbird and Firefox. (It's always those
because those are just about all Linux has.
And GIMP doesn't count, because anyone
who actually does graphic editing is not going
to settle for the maddening, confrontational
UI design of GIMP.)

And that cheap computer for web browsing and email *is* what most people
do. Look at the success of tablets and smartphones.

snip



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 6/6/17 11:16 PM, mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:27 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
On 6/6/2017 6:32 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
mike wrote:
I can understand how a linux advocate could be very proud and deal
with it.
I tried running open office on one machine and MSOffice on another.
Same functionality, mostly, but different ways of doing stuff.
I spent way too much time recovering from pressing the wrong
key combination or looking the wrong place in the menu systems.

Ugh! Try Tools Customize and knock yourself out! Remap hotkeys and
menus to whatever you want. Maybe a little googling you might find
someone has already done the configuration...

I have a perfectly good pickup truck.

Somebody offers me a free car with the brake and clutch pedals
swapped and a task to google for
people who may have made theirs into a means to haul stuff.

snipped the rest of the stupid analogy

You good "pickup truck" is the assumption that MS Word configuration is
*THE WAY* a word processor should be. WordPerfect users that predates MS
Word may have a different opinion.



NO, it's not an assumption about what should be.
It's the way word processing IS in the real world.

As well as the way it *shouldn't* be. I.E., using a word processor to
try to do something a page layout program is better suited for.

If you want something that lays out text correctly, following standard
rules, a word processor is not what you want. You want a document
processor or a page layout program.

There is absolutely zero that any linux can do about it.
If you wish to penetrate a market that is as entrenched as MSOFFICE,
you have no choice but to comply with the way it IS.
If a typical user can't easily switch between MSOFFICE and OpenOffice,
without skipping a beat, you ain't done.
You have to match MSOffice first and continuously as it evolves.

Exactly. I used to follow the LO group pretty closely, and there used
to be, anyway, that was really pushing for LO to make a serious run at
MS Office. I told them the program wasn't ready. Too many bugs, and
too many thinks LO couldn't do that Office could. Doing things that
Office couldn't wasn't good enough, neither was being free good enough.
They not only had to be equal to Office, they needed to be better.

As you might guess, that didn't go over well.

And some software is stuck in operating the way a piece of software
operated 20 years ago. Such as having to type in coordinates to align
frames, instead of having pop up guidelines.

Until you have sufficient market acceptance, you can't go off the
reservation no matter how much you think your way is superior.
It goes without saying that you have to standardize on ONE version
of the office suite and stick with it.

Everywhere you look in the desktop linux computing platform, you find
these kinds of issues. Fixing one doesn't help much.
You have to fix ALL the issues in programs that many people use
AND
at least have a tolerable alternative for all the rest.
There is no way that can happen in the free-for-all dowhateveryouwant
linux chaos.
Add to that the issue that nobody in linux development gives a rats
ass whether anybody else uses desktop linux. There is nobody leading
the charge
and nobody would follow a leader anyway.

There is no viable alternative to windows for joe average.
At this rate, desktop linux will never make the cut.

"Joe Average"... And just what is that? The average user in a large
business environment? The average user in a SOHO environment? The
average home user?

From my perspective, there is no "one size fits all", yet there is
always someone who seems to think so. So far, it hasn't worked all that
well with socks! LOL Some people like W10, others hate it. There
needs to be alternatives.

I'm tinkering a bit with Linux Mint, definitely having a hard time
finding the time to tinker, and for the first time in years, actually
enjoying using the computer. Maybe it's just learning something new.
But desktop linux does make a fine hobby to keep one occupied
when there's nothing on TV.

I think there's room for all 3 OSes if people would/could learn enough
to make an informed decision for them.

One major problem for getting exposure to Linux is you can't go to the
average store and see one or more distros actually running. I used to
work at a small PC shop, and we set up a used hardware system with
Linux. A lot of interest, but most were not shopping for an additional
system at that point, they simply needed repairs. But most were willing
to consider Linux in the future.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 6/7/2017 3:01 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/6/17 7:31 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Big Al" wrote

| What the real problem is to convert to linux IMHO is the amount and
type
| of stuff you do on an OS. Heavy gamers for example just can't move,
| again IMHO.
|

And people who use MS Office... And people
who use Photoshop... I use Libre Office, b
I don't need it professionally, so it works for me.
LO will not accurately reproduce complex DOCX
layouts with tables. Anyone who *really* uses
MS Office can't afford to switch. It's similar with
any commercial software that's not on Linux.

I'm not sure even Office successfully reproduces their own formats
accurately. :-(

What irritates me most, in a discussion like this, is the realization
people end up using Office and it's overkill for their needs. Why do
they use it?

They use it because their peeps do.
If you need help on the simplest thing in one of the 20 different linux
office suites, you are out of luck. Nobody you know can help.
With MSOffice, you can stand on the corner and ask a question out loud
and 20 people within earshot will be able to help. You buy it. You
plug in the disk and it just works.

I don't really know, but I think the user simply doesn't
know how to go about researching, testing, and the choosing the software
that meets their needs, or just slightly exceeds it. So they use what
someone else tells them they need.

For example... I met a senior citizen a couple years ago who wanted to
write a book about... "something" local. I don't remember what that
was. Someone gave her a Windows computer, and told her she needed Word.
Somehow, the screen display had been rotated 90Ëš and she couldn't fix
that. She barely knew how to turn it on. :-(

That was my first experience with something after W7, but eventually I
figured out how to fix it.

But she'd been trying to use Word, and was hugely frustrated with the
interface. The basic problem was she was in kindergarten, and was
trying to use a program intended to be used in high school. I got her
started with WordPad, and away she went. It was not above her
beginner's knowledge.
Yep, give her a linux computer with some office suite and see how that
goes...

I had planned on moving her up a "notch or two" to a more sophisticated
program when she was ready, but she had to move out of state for medical
reasons, and I don't know how things turned out.

Even with LO having a somewhat professional
polish, the help is a separate download. Do they
really imagine that most people don't need help
docs in such complex software? It can't be that
they want to minimize download size. I'm stuck
installing the whole wildly bloated mess despite
only using Writer.

I really don't have a problem with a separate help file. To me, that's
no different that Ford does things one way, and Chevrolet another.

That kind of statement is popular, but not a good argument.
A HUGE portion of what Chevrolet and Ford do is standardized by convention
or by law.
A huge portion of what MS does is standardized by convention or contract.
With linux, anybody can do the car equivalent of swapping the
clutch and brake pedals without a second thought and call it a distro.
How do you find out about it? You don't. You stub your toe on it
when you try to make it work.

But the option to install just the components you want is nice.

Yeah right. How do you know what you want? How do you figger out
whether Gimp or Grub or Cheese or some other acronym or metaphor
does what you want? Chaos is not choice.
Demolish that barrier to entry. Give people a standardized
set of typical stuff that all operates consistently. If they
want to change it, there's a repository for that. Many won't.

Stuff in linux is not so difficult the second time you do it, assuming
you have an excellent memory for tiny details.
The first time is a nightmare.

Those kinds of quirks are not suitable in
commercial software. The *only* reason I use LO
is because MS Office is grossly overpriced and
I need something to make business receipts,
contracts, business cards, etc. My needs are
small, so I put up with the horrendous bloat in
order to do what I need to. (Which is not to say
that MS Office is not also bloated. But that's not
a justification for sloppiness.)

You don't *have* to use LO in your case. There's at least another 20
office suites out there you can try. Personally, I like Softmaker Office.

Unless you want something that works "*exactly* like Office, and then
you're screwed. :-(
That's exactly what most people want. They want to type that novel.
They don't want a hobby figgering out how to make linux dance.

Linux developers act like the each of us lives in a vacuum.
If you don't have to be compatible with anyone else or with your past self,
life becomes much easier.
The rest of us communicate with others. We have jobs where our only option
is to use MS software. Taking on another challenge at home is not what
we want.

Also, most of the people here would have to give
up the work they've put into being competent on
Windows. I write my own software and I work with
Windows scripting. I'm familiar with the Registry
as well as the Win32 API. Many people in these
groups are similar. What's the draw to make me
throw all that away and go to Linux? There isn't
any.

Obviously, I'm using a Mac, El Capitan. Personally, I don't think much
of the direction both MS and Apple are taking for tracking my usage. On
my W10 computer, I used a program called Blackbird to turn all their
tracking and telemetry off. I have no use for Cortana. Or Siri for
that matter.

Screenshots are easier on the Mac, speech recognition is better on Windows.

So for me, there's nothing being offered with the current MS and Apple
OSes that give me any value. Newer and faster hardware is good, but
that generally is where it ends for me.

Then there's small shareware-type software.
Even Macs lack support in that area. Where
Windows users might have a choice of 5 free
programs, Mac users will all name the same
paid program, if they have options at all. On
Linux? "Oh, yeah, there's a guy in Romania who
started on something like that 3 years ago. You
should contact him. Maybe you can contribute
code to the upcoming version 0.01 beta. He's a
nice guy. It'll be fun!"

My experience with other Mac users is they are not "computer people". So
they generally don't know about shareware, cross platform, free software
like LO.

I'm not sure Apple "targets" wealthier people, but most of the users I
know are better off financially. Then again, my impression about the
Mac is they tend to be a leader, MS tends to be a follower. Plus Apple
seems to have a better handle on what people will buy than MS. Where is
MS's phone and iPod?

This topic came up recently in one of these
groups and I noted that Linux doesn't even seem
to have an easy-to-use option for a firewall that
can block outgoing on a per-process basis. That
seems like a very basic firewall function to me on
a SOHo Desktop computer. I don't go online on
Windows without it. In classic Linux fashion, someone
made my point for me, providing a link to some kind
of undocumented Linux code mess with a cute name,
for which I could download source code and attempt
compiling.... And if I'm very adept in C++ I might
even be able to figure out what the mess was
before compiling it.

Most people know nothing of firewalls, IMO. My nephew installed a third
party firewall on his parents' computers. When the firewall popped up
asking if they wanted to let this or that through, they were clueless.
So they let it go through. What good is that?

I just leave the default firewall alone, let it do it's thing. And
that's probably good enough for over 95% of users.

The Linux salespeople would do better to be
honest and say, "Look, if you need a cheap
computer for web browsing, this might serve
your needs." Instead they bend the truth,
yapping about how Linux has GIMP, Libre Office,
Thunderbird and Firefox. (It's always those
because those are just about all Linux has.
And GIMP doesn't count, because anyone
who actually does graphic editing is not going
to settle for the maddening, confrontational
UI design of GIMP.)

And that cheap computer for web browsing and email *is* what most people
do. Look at the success of tablets and smartphones.

snip

On 6/7/2017 3:27 AM, Ken Springer wrote:


I think there's room for all 3 OSes if people would/could learn enough
to make an informed decision for them.

People don't want to decide which OS to use.
They want to post pictures of their cat.
They want to do some banking.
They want to send some text to a friend without having to worry whether
it will show up on their screen as ONE continuous line of text.

People want desktop linux about as much as they want a kit car.

From the newbie point of view, there is no desktop linux.
There are a hundred competing and conflicting visions of what
desktop linux should be. The fix is conceptually trivial.
Create ONE desktop linux and everybody get behind it. You don't
lose any choice at all. There's a repository for that. You make
informed changes as your knowledge increases. But, while you're
a newbie, it all just works. And if you have a question, you
don't have to wade thru answers and solutions that work just fine
on a distro that you don't have.

One major problem for getting exposure to Linux is you can't go to the
average store and see one or more distros actually running. I used to
work at a small PC shop, and we set up a used hardware system with
Linux. A lot of interest, but most were not shopping for an additional
system at that point, they simply needed repairs. But most were willing
to consider Linux in the future.

Vendors can't figure out how to make a profit out of the chaos.
It costs more to support desktop linux than they can make on the sales.
Vendors want to sell the stuff and never hear about it again.
****ing off the microsoft monopoly could prove costly too.

The single user desktop is owned by microsoft. I can't imagine
disorganized chaos ever being more than a footnote.

noel wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 09:42:19 -0400, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

noel wrote:
On Tue, 06 Jun 2017 05:10:47 -0400, Big Al wrote:

designed for Windows don't effect me, and all the call home stuff is
gone.

if you use ubuntu, you are calling home, (or it used to, despite the
outcry, later releases still did it) it can be disabled though, unlike
on windows.


Unlike Windows it is disabled by DEFAULT now...

oh so after years of bitching canonical changed their ways..... too bad
the damage wqas already done and they lost a lot of ppls trust.

1) There was always the ability to disable it.
2) In 6 months they added the option in UI to disable it.
3) Next LTS version it was disabled by default.

With MS none of the above it true...


they lost me with unity, and no, just because they now ditch it, I still
wont be going back to it on desktop (I never ran it on servers they
always been slackware)


Personally I like Unity. Sorry to see them drop it, but it will be still
available as others have picked up the torch. But then again, you ALWAYS
have an option to pick the DE that you prefer. Still trying to make this
Win10 UI workable.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com