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#16
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Microsoft MVPs
On Sun, 19 Oct 2008 20:58:31 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote: This a**hole is NOT an MVP! The Real Truth MVP wrote: There is none. Ah yes, very true, but then the status of MVP has been diluted by real MVPs that choose to hide. You can't check on their credentials because they chose to hide. Gee, would you trust a doctor, dentist, or any other self-claimed professional whose credentials you could not certify? That MVPs can hide so their credentials are not public (which has nothing to do with divulging private information) pretty much renders the who concept worthless. Anyone could claim they are an MVP, like Patricia here claiming to be one (after nymshifting away from her pcbutts1 moniker). You don't need to go ego-stroking your status to announce your MVP status to other MVPs. That ego-stroking is to announce yourself to non-MVPs in a newsgroup (i.e., to the general populace that visit there). To the public, if your self-claimed MVP credentials cannot be traced to those that provide that certification then you don't have those credentials as far as the public is concerned. Unless the status of MVP is traceable, it means nothing. I've looked at mvps.org. Didn't find anyone named "Bear" there. Looked at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx. There are couple of "bear" names with that substring but nothing that would match on the "pa" part of your moniker. So just how *we* non-MVPs visiting the newsgroups know YOU aren't yet another troll pretending to be an MVP? We can't so the claim to be an MVP cannot be verified which means the MVP title is not only worthless but possibly deliberately misleading. His name, which he often uses in his messages (or else I wouldn't tell you), is Robear Dyer. PA Bear is sort of a nickname. Go back to https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx and look for Robear Dyer, which you will find there. I can also personally vouch for his being an MVP, because I've several times met him at MVP events at Microsoft in Seattle. -- Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience Please Reply to the Newsgroup |
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#17
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Microsoft MVPs
"Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... "Mike Hall - MVP" wrote in message ... "VanguardLH" wrote in message ... Bob Lucas wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". Some MVPs claim they don't want their private information published in a public place. That doesn't preclude that they are *listed* as an MVP. If an MVP doesn't have themself published in the MVP lists (and which does NOT require any public disclosure of their personal info) then I don't consider them an MVP. If you want to check on the credentials of a cert that an employee claims to have, you check with the issuer to find out if that cert was actually ever awarded to that person. If someone claims they are an expert in some profession, they must provide proof of such. Lack of proof means lack of expertise. I'm not allowed to claim that I'm a doctor, cop, or any other professional without having traceable credentials. To me, if they can't prove that they were elected by other MVPs to become themself an MVP then I'm not going to believe them just because they say so. If an MVP wants to hide, consider why they want to hide. They don't need to give out their street address, phone number, or any private information. Obviously if they want to have an identity as an MVP then *something* of them must be made public. If an MVP wants to hide from the public but only let other MVPs know about their MVP status then let them hide inside an MVP-only forum or MVP-only mailing list. If they don't want to be public then don't claim to be an MVP in public. If someone says they are an MVP but if the public can't verify that status and if the one claiming to be an MVP can prove their status then they aren't an MVP. Anyone can claim anything they want in the Usenet anarchy. Hiding MVPs dilute the status and potence of the MVP title. You have it all worked out, eh. Some may not be public because their employers might think that they would possibly do free work in works time. Some employers may consider the MVP award status to be in competition with what the company does/supplies. Some MVPs may not be in a position politically. PCButts is a wannabe.. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default...help&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx Those are valid reasons for claiming anonymity. However, I still believe that if a contributor to a newsgroup claims to be an MVP, other contributors should be able to verify that appellation (in the same way that members of the public can check the credentials of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) MVPs provide a valuable service - and I am not decrying their expertise and willingness to help. However, many non-MVPs also offer useful contributions. If an MVP does not want his name to appear on a public register, there is nothing to prevent him/her from posting to newsgroups without claiming membership of the MVP community. Regular newsgroup users will have little difficulty forming an opinion about those contributors, who have provided reliable contributions over a period of time. The real danger comes from people who claim to be MVPs (which implies special expertise and a willingness to help) - but are impostors. Consequently, MVPs should be prepared to allow their names to appear on a public register - OR refrain from using the MVP suffix when they post to newsgroups. I, for one, would have nothing against my name appearing in an official list provided by MS. I just don't want my life history made public. They *could* have two lists, but they don't. I have nothing I need to hide in my profile, it's just a "nobody's business" thing. -- Bruce Hagen MS-MVP Outlook Express Imperial Beach, CA |
#18
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Microsoft MVPs
you're absolutely
correct and justified. the problem originates at the source, the microsoft mvp program. but one can not expect the book to be open when the books are corrupted or embarrassing. -- db·´¯`·...¸)))º "Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... "Mike Hall - MVP" wrote in message ... "VanguardLH" wrote in message ... Bob Lucas wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". Some MVPs claim they don't want their private information published in a public place. That doesn't preclude that they are *listed* as an MVP. If an MVP doesn't have themself published in the MVP lists (and which does NOT require any public disclosure of their personal info) then I don't consider them an MVP. If you want to check on the credentials of a cert that an employee claims to have, you check with the issuer to find out if that cert was actually ever awarded to that person. If someone claims they are an expert in some profession, they must provide proof of such. Lack of proof means lack of expertise. I'm not allowed to claim that I'm a doctor, cop, or any other professional without having traceable credentials. To me, if they can't prove that they were elected by other MVPs to become themself an MVP then I'm not going to believe them just because they say so. If an MVP wants to hide, consider why they want to hide. They don't need to give out their street address, phone number, or any private information. Obviously if they want to have an identity as an MVP then *something* of them must be made public. If an MVP wants to hide from the public but only let other MVPs know about their MVP status then let them hide inside an MVP-only forum or MVP-only mailing list. If they don't want to be public then don't claim to be an MVP in public. If someone says they are an MVP but if the public can't verify that status and if the one claiming to be an MVP can prove their status then they aren't an MVP. Anyone can claim anything they want in the Usenet anarchy. Hiding MVPs dilute the status and potence of the MVP title. You have it all worked out, eh. Some may not be public because their employers might think that they would possibly do free work in works time. Some employers may consider the MVP award status to be in competition with what the company does/supplies. Some MVPs may not be in a position politically. PCButts is a wannabe.. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default...help&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx Those are valid reasons for claiming anonymity. However, I still believe that if a contributor to a newsgroup claims to be an MVP, other contributors should be able to verify that appellation (in the same way that members of the public can check the credentials of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) MVPs provide a valuable service - and I am not decrying their expertise and willingness to help. However, many non-MVPs also offer useful contributions. If an MVP does not want his name to appear on a public register, there is nothing to prevent him/her from posting to newsgroups without claiming membership of the MVP community. Regular newsgroup users will have little difficulty forming an opinion about those contributors, who have provided reliable contributions over a period of time. The real danger comes from people who claim to be MVPs (which implies special expertise and a willingness to help) - but are impostors. Consequently, MVPs should be prepared to allow their names to appear on a public register - OR refrain from using the MVP suffix when they post to newsgroups. |
#19
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Microsoft MVPs
"Bruce Hagen" wrote in message
... "Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... "Mike Hall - MVP" wrote in message ... "VanguardLH" wrote in message ... Bob Lucas wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". Some MVPs claim they don't want their private information published in a public place. That doesn't preclude that they are *listed* as an MVP. If an MVP doesn't have themself published in the MVP lists (and which does NOT require any public disclosure of their personal info) then I don't consider them an MVP. If you want to check on the credentials of a cert that an employee claims to have, you check with the issuer to find out if that cert was actually ever awarded to that person. If someone claims they are an expert in some profession, they must provide proof of such. Lack of proof means lack of expertise. I'm not allowed to claim that I'm a doctor, cop, or any other professional without having traceable credentials. To me, if they can't prove that they were elected by other MVPs to become themself an MVP then I'm not going to believe them just because they say so. If an MVP wants to hide, consider why they want to hide. They don't need to give out their street address, phone number, or any private information. Obviously if they want to have an identity as an MVP then *something* of them must be made public. If an MVP wants to hide from the public but only let other MVPs know about their MVP status then let them hide inside an MVP-only forum or MVP-only mailing list. If they don't want to be public then don't claim to be an MVP in public. If someone says they are an MVP but if the public can't verify that status and if the one claiming to be an MVP can prove their status then they aren't an MVP. Anyone can claim anything they want in the Usenet anarchy. Hiding MVPs dilute the status and potence of the MVP title. You have it all worked out, eh. Some may not be public because their employers might think that they would possibly do free work in works time. Some employers may consider the MVP award status to be in competition with what the company does/supplies. Some MVPs may not be in a position politically. PCButts is a wannabe.. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default...help&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx Those are valid reasons for claiming anonymity. However, I still believe that if a contributor to a newsgroup claims to be an MVP, other contributors should be able to verify that appellation (in the same way that members of the public can check the credentials of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) MVPs provide a valuable service - and I am not decrying their expertise and willingness to help. However, many non-MVPs also offer useful contributions. If an MVP does not want his name to appear on a public register, there is nothing to prevent him/her from posting to newsgroups without claiming membership of the MVP community. Regular newsgroup users will have little difficulty forming an opinion about those contributors, who have provided reliable contributions over a period of time. The real danger comes from people who claim to be MVPs (which implies special expertise and a willingness to help) - but are impostors. Consequently, MVPs should be prepared to allow their names to appear on a public register - OR refrain from using the MVP suffix when they post to newsgroups. I, for one, would have nothing against my name appearing in an official list provided by MS. I just don't want my life history made public. They *could* have two lists, but they don't. I have nothing I need to hide in my profile, it's just a "nobody's business" thing. -- Bruce Hagen MS-MVP Outlook Express Imperial Beach, CA That would be a very sensible compromise. "Consumers" certainly don't need access to an individual MVP's life history or similar details (although it might be useful to specify particular areas of expertise or specialisation. For BH, such expertise would include Outlook Express). However, inclusion in an official list of MVPs (names only) might deter unqualified passers-by from claiming fraudulently that they have been awarded MVP status. |
#20
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Microsoft MVPs
I'm thinking about a suitable designation for people like me: Certified
Shlemiel, or CS. What's that you say? Oh...you already know I'm a shlemiel, even without a designation. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est Bob Lucas wrote: "Bruce Hagen" wrote in message ... "Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... "Mike Hall - MVP" wrote in message ... "VanguardLH" wrote in message ... Bob Lucas wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". Some MVPs claim they don't want their private information published in a public place. That doesn't preclude that they are *listed* as an MVP. If an MVP doesn't have themself published in the MVP lists (and which does NOT require any public disclosure of their personal info) then I don't consider them an MVP. If you want to check on the credentials of a cert that an employee claims to have, you check with the issuer to find out if that cert was actually ever awarded to that person. If someone claims they are an expert in some profession, they must provide proof of such. Lack of proof means lack of expertise. I'm not allowed to claim that I'm a doctor, cop, or any other professional without having traceable credentials. To me, if they can't prove that they were elected by other MVPs to become themself an MVP then I'm not going to believe them just because they say so. If an MVP wants to hide, consider why they want to hide. They don't need to give out their street address, phone number, or any private information. Obviously if they want to have an identity as an MVP then *something* of them must be made public. If an MVP wants to hide from the public but only let other MVPs know about their MVP status then let them hide inside an MVP-only forum or MVP-only mailing list. If they don't want to be public then don't claim to be an MVP in public. If someone says they are an MVP but if the public can't verify that status and if the one claiming to be an MVP can prove their status then they aren't an MVP. Anyone can claim anything they want in the Usenet anarchy. Hiding MVPs dilute the status and potence of the MVP title. You have it all worked out, eh. Some may not be public because their employers might think that they would possibly do free work in works time. Some employers may consider the MVP award status to be in competition with what the company does/supplies. Some MVPs may not be in a position politically. PCButts is a wannabe.. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default...help&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx Those are valid reasons for claiming anonymity. However, I still believe that if a contributor to a newsgroup claims to be an MVP, other contributors should be able to verify that appellation (in the same way that members of the public can check the credentials of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) MVPs provide a valuable service - and I am not decrying their expertise and willingness to help. However, many non-MVPs also offer useful contributions. If an MVP does not want his name to appear on a public register, there is nothing to prevent him/her from posting to newsgroups without claiming membership of the MVP community. Regular newsgroup users will have little difficulty forming an opinion about those contributors, who have provided reliable contributions over a period of time. The real danger comes from people who claim to be MVPs (which implies special expertise and a willingness to help) - but are impostors. Consequently, MVPs should be prepared to allow their names to appear on a public register - OR refrain from using the MVP suffix when they post to newsgroups. I, for one, would have nothing against my name appearing in an official list provided by MS. I just don't want my life history made public. They *could* have two lists, but they don't. I have nothing I need to hide in my profile, it's just a "nobody's business" thing. -- Bruce Hagen MS-MVP Outlook Express Imperial Beach, CA That would be a very sensible compromise. "Consumers" certainly don't need access to an individual MVP's life history or similar details (although it might be useful to specify particular areas of expertise or specialisation. For BH, such expertise would include Outlook Express). However, inclusion in an official list of MVPs (names only) might deter unqualified passers-by from claiming fraudulently that they have been awarded MVP status. |
#21
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Microsoft MVPs
Wrong! (And the real "nass" doesn't post as "nass [MVP]".)
nass [MVP] wrote: Hi, my name nass. I am a NEW [MVP], and so happy. I am over the sun with happinesas, and so is my business. Business is booming; I have lot specialos I choose to hide my name on that list, as I am shy. Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". |
#22
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Microsoft MVPs
lol,
some doors should not be opened..! -- db·´¯`·...¸)))º "Leonard Grey" wrote in message ... I'm thinking about a suitable designation for people like me: Certified Shlemiel, or CS. What's that you say? Oh...you already know I'm a shlemiel, even without a designation. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est Bob Lucas wrote: "Bruce Hagen" wrote in message ... "Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... "Mike Hall - MVP" wrote in message ... "VanguardLH" wrote in message ... Bob Lucas wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". Some MVPs claim they don't want their private information published in a public place. That doesn't preclude that they are *listed* as an MVP. If an MVP doesn't have themself published in the MVP lists (and which does NOT require any public disclosure of their personal info) then I don't consider them an MVP. If you want to check on the credentials of a cert that an employee claims to have, you check with the issuer to find out if that cert was actually ever awarded to that person. If someone claims they are an expert in some profession, they must provide proof of such. Lack of proof means lack of expertise. I'm not allowed to claim that I'm a doctor, cop, or any other professional without having traceable credentials. To me, if they can't prove that they were elected by other MVPs to become themself an MVP then I'm not going to believe them just because they say so. If an MVP wants to hide, consider why they want to hide. They don't need to give out their street address, phone number, or any private information. Obviously if they want to have an identity as an MVP then *something* of them must be made public. If an MVP wants to hide from the public but only let other MVPs know about their MVP status then let them hide inside an MVP-only forum or MVP-only mailing list. If they don't want to be public then don't claim to be an MVP in public. If someone says they are an MVP but if the public can't verify that status and if the one claiming to be an MVP can prove their status then they aren't an MVP. Anyone can claim anything they want in the Usenet anarchy. Hiding MVPs dilute the status and potence of the MVP title. You have it all worked out, eh. Some may not be public because their employers might think that they would possibly do free work in works time. Some employers may consider the MVP award status to be in competition with what the company does/supplies. Some MVPs may not be in a position politically. PCButts is a wannabe.. -- Mike Hall - MVP How to construct a good post.. http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups.. http://support.microsoft.com/default...help&style=toc Mike's Window - My Blog.. http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx Those are valid reasons for claiming anonymity. However, I still believe that if a contributor to a newsgroup claims to be an MVP, other contributors should be able to verify that appellation (in the same way that members of the public can check the credentials of doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) MVPs provide a valuable service - and I am not decrying their expertise and willingness to help. However, many non-MVPs also offer useful contributions. If an MVP does not want his name to appear on a public register, there is nothing to prevent him/her from posting to newsgroups without claiming membership of the MVP community. Regular newsgroup users will have little difficulty forming an opinion about those contributors, who have provided reliable contributions over a period of time. The real danger comes from people who claim to be MVPs (which implies special expertise and a willingness to help) - but are impostors. Consequently, MVPs should be prepared to allow their names to appear on a public register - OR refrain from using the MVP suffix when they post to newsgroups. I, for one, would have nothing against my name appearing in an official list provided by MS. I just don't want my life history made public. They *could* have two lists, but they don't. I have nothing I need to hide in my profile, it's just a "nobody's business" thing. -- Bruce Hagen MS-MVP Outlook Express Imperial Beach, CA That would be a very sensible compromise. "Consumers" certainly don't need access to an individual MVP's life history or similar details (although it might be useful to specify particular areas of expertise or specialisation. For BH, such expertise would include Outlook Express). However, inclusion in an official list of MVPs (names only) might deter unqualified passers-by from claiming fraudulently that they have been awarded MVP status. |
#23
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Microsoft MVPs
Or maybe CFS - for Certified "Forking" Shlemiel.
Whaddaya think? -- Leonard Grey [CFS] Errare Humanum Est "Leonard Grey" wrote I'm thinking about a suitable designation for people like me: Certified Shlemiel, or CS. What's that you say? Oh...you already know I'm a shlemiel, even without a designation. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est |
#24
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Microsoft MVPs
Over the weekend I made a promise I wouldn't respond to my impersonator.
And I won't. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est Leonard Grey wrote: Or maybe CFS - for Certified "Forking" Shlemiel. Whaddaya think? -- Leonard Grey [CFS] Errare Humanum Est "Leonard Grey" wrote I'm thinking about a suitable designation for people like me: Certified Shlemiel, or CS. What's that you say? Oh...you already know I'm a shlemiel, even without a designation. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est |
#25
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Microsoft MVPs
: : However, inclusion in an official list of MVPs (names only) might deter : unqualified passers-by from claiming fraudulently that they have been : awarded MVP status. It's a legal/privacy issue with microsoft. : |
#27
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Microsoft MVPs
En you just Brokeden you Promised. I'm shameded of You.
nass -- http://www.nasstec.co.uk "Leonard Grey " wrote Over the weekend I made a promise I wouldn't respond to my impersonator. And I won't. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est Leonard Grey wrote: Or maybe CFS - for Certified "Forking" Shlemiel. Whaddaya think? -- Leonard Grey [CFS] Errare Humanum Est "Leonard Grey" wrote I'm thinking about a suitable designation for people like me: Certified Shlemiel, or CS. What's that you say? Oh...you already know I'm a shlemiel, even without a designation. --- Leonard Grey Errare Humanum Est |
#28
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Microsoft MVPs
YOU are the one WRONG!
You are LIAR TROLL I am MVP, you are pig swill fake! -- HTH nass --- http://www.nasstec.co.uk "PA Bear [MS MVP]" wrote: Wrong! (And the real "nass" doesn't post as "nass [MVP]".) nass [MVP] wrote: Hi, my name nass. I am a NEW [MVP], and so happy. I am over the sun with happinesas, and so is my business. Business is booming; I have lot specialos I choose to hide my name on that list, as I am shy. Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". |
#29
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Microsoft MVPs
Fellow posters:
You know me. PA Bear is a are LIAR TROLL I am MVP, he is pig swill fake! -- HTH nass --- http://www.nasstec.co.uk "Bob Lucas" wrote: Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". |
#30
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Microsoft MVPs
Fellow posters:
You know me. PA Bear is a are LIAR TROLL I am MVP, he is pig swill fake! -- HTH nass --- http://www.nasstec.co.uk "Bruce Hagen" wrote: "Bob Lucas" wrote in message ... Are there any special rules governing the use of the designation MS-MVP? I ask the question because, according to the page at https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/communities/mvp.aspx, the Microsoft MVP Awardee directory contains a listing of all MVPs that want to share information publicly. However, when I conducted advanced searches against the names of contributors to several newsgroups (who claim to be MVPs), the search engine produced the following response "No results were found for your search criteria". What do you get for me? It should come up empty as I do not have my profile public, but other MVPs can access it. On occasion, you may see a troll impersonating an MVP. -- Bruce Hagen MS-MVP Outlook Express Imperial Beach, CA |
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