Win 10 Mail with POP Settings Acts Like IMAP

I had asked about email port numbers to use when setting up local email
clients to get mail from xxxxx.comcast.net host (web email) accounts. I
asked over on alt.online-service.comcast, as it seemed like a comcast
question.



While testing out some ideas, I ran across something that seems very odd
to me, and is a Windows 10 question. Nothing to solve. It is what it
is.

It deals with the Windows 10 Mail client program, that even when manually
configured POP, it acts completely as an IMAP client. Here's the setup:

A) Desktop, Windows 7
Windows Live Mail, POP, Leave mail on server

B) Laptop, Windows 10, 1909.18363.720
Windows Live Mail, POP, Leave mail on server and
Windows 10 Mail, POP (no option to leave mail on server)

C) Laptop (a 32GB SSD HP 14"), Windows 10, 1903.18362.778
Windows 10 Mail, POP (no option to leave mail on server)

Here are the additional settings (authentication, SSL) on *both* Windows
10 Mail programs (they are identical), and these are also the settings on
Windows Live Mail. In addition Windows Live Mail is set to leave mail on
server; Windows 10 Mail has no similar option

https://preview.tinyurl.com/qlmphgv

Anyway...

1) If I create or delete a folder, on either machine's Windows 10 Mail,
it appears on the other machine's Windows 10 Mail, *and* on the Comcast
web mail host. This change does not appear on any install of Windows Live
Mail.

2) If I delete an email message on either machine's Windows 10 Mail, it
is also deletd on the other machine's Windows 10 Mail, *and* deleted on
the Comcast web mail host. The deleted email message appears in the
delected/trash folder on both Windows 10 Mail and on the Comcast web mail
host. This change does not appear on any install of Windows Live Mail.

3) Any changes that are done on the Comcast web mail host, are reflected
on both Windows 10 Mail installs, but not on any install of Windows Live
Mail. My Windows Live Mail does not see any changes in folders. It sees
all new emails that Window 10 Mail sees, and if an email is deleted via
Windows 10 Mail, Windows Live Mail doesn't see that email unless it has
downloaded (copied-since leave mail on server) it before the Windows 10
Mail delete got to it first.

My conclusion:

Since all email is pulled from the Comcast host's Inbox, and Windows Live
Mail doesn't effect the host, or Windows 10 Mail clients, understand that
I can have as many folders or folder configurations as I need on a
Windows Live Mail client, but be sure I have all I need in terms of email
downloads (copies) before I go deleting anything on a Windows 10 Mail
client, or moving anything from a Windows 10 Mail Inbox to a folder.
The Comcast host Inbox is my bible, and if I'm going to use Windows 10
Mail attached to that bible, be careful, because it doesn't act like a
POP client, and it doesn't have a 'Leave on server' option. Nothing new
here for me, other than discovering Windows 10 Mail appears to behave
like an IMAP client even when set as POP.

Am I right? Leave it to Microsoft? Anyone else seen this behavior?

(I also tried to set up a throw-away Yahoo email account I've had for
years. Windows 10 Mail automatically set it up as IMAP, and it workded
fine. It was just a test, and I've since deleted it from Window 10 Mail.
I also tried to set it up on Windows Live Mail, automatically, and it
used plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com and plus.smtp.mail.yahoo.com, with ports 995
and 465, but it never connected. Searches told me to use mail.yahoo.com
and smtp.yahoo.com, but that didn't work either. I couldn't get Window
Live Mail to log on to Yahoo. Kept telling me wrong password. I could
easily log on via the internet, though.)

Boris wrote in
.198:

My sticky clipboard kept the wrong URL (a man's gotta know his
limitations). Sincerest apologies.

Here's a more helpful one.

https://postimg.cc/4nLSsQn3

Boris wrote:

Boris wrote in
.198:

My sticky clipboard kept the wrong URL (a man's gotta know his
limitations). Sincerest apologies.

Here's a more helpful one.

https://postimg.cc/4nLSsQn3

There might be the problem. By using the generic "mail" hostname, the
e-mail protocol is not hinted to the server. If you want Mail to
connect as a POP client, use pop3.comcast.net. If you want Mail to
connect as an IMAP client, use imap.comcast.net. Both resolve to the
same IP address, but the hostname provides a hint.

While that might work, it won't change the Mail app's own behavior. If
Microsoft wanted their Mail app's POP behavior to emulate a limited IMAP
feature set, like staying in sync with the UID list up on the server,
using a different hostname for the mail server won't change that
behavior. With the dearth of options in the Mail app, you cannot
configure it behave like the old-fashioned POP clients you are used to
for their behaviors.

A client can make POP behavior emulate some IMAP features, like issuing
a UID or LIST command to stay in sync with the current set of messages
upon the server. POP can't be made to completely emulate IMAP, but it
can be made to have some of IMAP's features.

Boris wrote:

I had asked about email port numbers to use when setting up local email
clients to get mail from xxxxx.comcast.net host (web email) accounts. I
asked over on alt.online-service.comcast, as it seemed like a comcast
question.



While testing out some ideas, I ran across something that seems very odd
to me, and is a Windows 10 question. Nothing to solve. It is what it
is.

It deals with the Windows 10 Mail client program, that even when manually
configured POP, it acts completely as an IMAP client. Here's the setup:

A) Desktop, Windows 7
Windows Live Mail, POP, Leave mail on server

B) Laptop, Windows 10, 1909.18363.720
Windows Live Mail, POP, Leave mail on server and
Windows 10 Mail, POP (no option to leave mail on server)

C) Laptop (a 32GB SSD HP 14"), Windows 10, 1903.18362.778
Windows 10 Mail, POP (no option to leave mail on server)

Here are the additional settings (authentication, SSL) on *both* Windows
10 Mail programs (they are identical), and these are also the settings on
Windows Live Mail. In addition Windows Live Mail is set to leave mail on
server; Windows 10 Mail has no similar option

https://preview.tinyurl.com/qlmphgv

Anyway...

1) If I create or delete a folder, on either machine's Windows 10 Mail,
it appears on the other machine's Windows 10 Mail, *and* on the Comcast
web mail host. This change does not appear on any install of Windows Live
Mail.

2) If I delete an email message on either machine's Windows 10 Mail, it
is also deletd on the other machine's Windows 10 Mail, *and* deleted on
the Comcast web mail host. The deleted email message appears in the
delected/trash folder on both Windows 10 Mail and on the Comcast web mail
host. This change does not appear on any install of Windows Live Mail.

3) Any changes that are done on the Comcast web mail host, are reflected
on both Windows 10 Mail installs, but not on any install of Windows Live
Mail. My Windows Live Mail does not see any changes in folders. It sees
all new emails that Window 10 Mail sees, and if an email is deleted via
Windows 10 Mail, Windows Live Mail doesn't see that email unless it has
downloaded (copied-since leave mail on server) it before the Windows 10
Mail delete got to it first.

My conclusion:

Since all email is pulled from the Comcast host's Inbox, and Windows Live
Mail doesn't effect the host, or Windows 10 Mail clients, understand that
I can have as many folders or folder configurations as I need on a
Windows Live Mail client, but be sure I have all I need in terms of email
downloads (copies) before I go deleting anything on a Windows 10 Mail
client, or moving anything from a Windows 10 Mail Inbox to a folder.
The Comcast host Inbox is my bible, and if I'm going to use Windows 10
Mail attached to that bible, be careful, because it doesn't act like a
POP client, and it doesn't have a 'Leave on server' option. Nothing new
here for me, other than discovering Windows 10 Mail appears to behave
like an IMAP client even when set as POP.

Am I right? Leave it to Microsoft? Anyone else seen this behavior?

(I also tried to set up a throw-away Yahoo email account I've had for
years. Windows 10 Mail automatically set it up as IMAP, and it workded
fine. It was just a test, and I've since deleted it from Window 10 Mail.
I also tried to set it up on Windows Live Mail, automatically, and it
used plus.pop.mail.yahoo.com and plus.smtp.mail.yahoo.com, with ports 995
and 465, but it never connected. Searches told me to use mail.yahoo.com
and smtp.yahoo.com, but that didn't work either. I couldn't get Window
Live Mail to log on to Yahoo. Kept telling me wrong password. I could
easily log on via the internet, though.)

Go into the Win10 Mail app. In its left vertical pane, click on
Accounts. In the popup right-side pane, click on your Comcast account.
In the floating popup, click on "Change mailbox sync settings". Then
click on "Advanced mailbox settings". For "Incoming mail server", is
the pop.comcast.net or imap.comcast.net hostname specified?

If you let Mail auto-configure a newly added account, it will pick
Exchange/Activesync for Hotmail/Live/Outlook.com account, Google's Mail
API for Gmail, or select IMAP over POP if the e-mail provider has IMAP
(most do ... in fact, I've never used one that doesn't have IMAP).

Don't change the server from IMAP to POP and think that account will
continue to function correctly in Mail. I've heard the account
continues trying to behave as the type if was originally defined.
Delete the IMAP account and create a new account, but manually
configured the new account where you specify the server details.

If you did indeed define the account in MAIL as a POP type account, the
behavior you note in #2 is expected. POP's default behavior is to send
RETR(ieve) followed by a DELE(te). You have to configure an option in
the local e-mail client that upon a delete will "Leave message on
server". Mail doesn't have that option. It has almost no options. So,
deleting a message in Mail also has Mail send a DELE command to the
server, and the message gets deleted on the server.

I suspect you expect POP to not recognize there was a change in the
Inbox on the server. One client deleted its copy of a message and sent
a DELE to the server (assuming the DELE gets sent immediately upon a
local delete rather than, say, wait for your to change focus to a
different folder), but you expect the other POP client to continue
showing its local copy of the same message. That's how old POP client
worked. There's nothing to prevent a POP client from reissuing its UID
command to get a current list of items in the mailbox (represented by
the Inbox folder) and keeping in sync with that list. This is more
IMAP-like than you expect. Since the Mail app has a dearth of options,
you won't find any sync option to NOT keep in sync with the server's
message list.

POP usually does RETR followed by DELE unless the client is otherwise
configured to "leave message on server". No such option in Mail.
Leaving the message after retrieve on the server is IMAP-like. It's why
clients added that option, so other POP clients connecting to the same
account could see the same message. POP wasn't like that. If one POP
client retrieved and deleted a message from the server, other POP
clients never saw that same message when they later polled the server.
Sharing of messages across POP clients was not how POP was designed.
That's why IMAP showed up, along with support of a folder hierarchy.
With POP clients partially acting like IMAP clients, any client can take
it a step farther than just "leave message on server" to share a message
with other POP client. A POP client can also issue a UID or LIST
command to see what is currently in the mailbox, and keep in sync with
the current list of UIDs returned from the server. So, the POP client
takes yet another step to be IMAP-like, so the same behavior in multiple
POP clients will stay in sync with each other. At that point, you
really should just change to using IMAP. You get the same improved sync
behavior, but also folder support, IMAP push (for immediate new-mail
notification instead of waiting for the next mail poll after a new
message shows up), and probably more features IMAP has over POP.

Win10 Mail app is a very crippled e-mail client. It targets boobs since
they wouldn't know how to configure an e-mail client (and also why many
e-mail clients incorporate automated setup of well-known e-mail
providers). Those users don't understand how POP or IMAP work, so much
of that is hidden. Seems Microsoft decided to make POP in their Mail
app behave somewhat like IMAP, especially since users have evolved into
having multiple hosts where they receive messages for the same account
(desktop, laptop, netbook, smartphone, tablets, etc). There has never
been a restriction that a POP client cannot re-sync its message store to
what is currently available on the server.

Older POP clients just did the RETR and then a DELE by default, and then
later added the option to omit the following DELE command, so the same
message could be shared by multiple POP clients which wasn't a POP
feature but an IMAP feature. When the POP client connects, it does a
UID or LIST command to see what messages are available. The POP client
got ALL of them, not just new messages, as it was the chore of the
client to determine which UIDs it retrieved before to determine which
ones are new on the server, and just RETR the new ones. IMAP does have
a command to ask the server which are new since last poll by client.
Since the POP client got all messages in the UID or LIST, it can compare
that list to the one is has, and make changes to keep the client and
server in sync. Yep, POP evolving into IMAP. Well, into a skinny IMAP
wannabe. If you don't want or need folder support or push for immediate
new-mail notification instead of waiting until the next scheduled or
manual mail poll, POP can be made to behave similar to a limited IMAP.

With such limited options available in the Mail app, and with its POP
behavior differing from other POP clients, you might want to stick to
using the older and more robust POP clients on each of your hosts. The
Mail app, according to your description, appears to be emulating limited
IMAP features against a POP account.

Sorry, I gave up on the Mail app a couple months after installing
Windows 10. It is just too crippled for me, plus I found its
calendaring notifications to be flaky for use as reminders. It was
usable but not robust. I still keep it as a backup e-mail client, but I
left it a long time ago. Just because it comes bundled with the OS is
not sufficient reason to suffer it. Edge, and even old Internet
Explorer, come bundled in Windows 10, but I don't use those, either.

If the Mail app doesn't behave how you like, leave it.

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Sorry, I gave up on the Mail app a couple months after installing
Windows 10. It is just too crippled for me, plus I found its


Ditto, but I stopped using it sooner than you did. As far as I'm
concerned, it's a very poor e-mail client and there are lots of better
choices.


calendaring notifications to be flaky for use as reminders. It was
usable but not robust. I still keep it as a backup e-mail client, but I
left it a long time ago. Just because it comes bundled with the OS is
not sufficient reason to suffer it. Edge, and even old Internet
Explorer, come bundled in Windows 10, but I don't use those, either.


Ditto. Both poor browsers. Again, there are better choices. I greatly
prefer FireFox.


If the Mail app doesn't behave how you like, leave it.


One more ditto.


--
Ken

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:31:10 -0700
Ken Blake wrote:

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Sorry, I gave up on the Mail app a couple months after installing
Windows 10. It is just too crippled for me, plus I found its


Ditto, but I stopped using it sooner than you did. As far as I'm
concerned, it's a very poor e-mail client and there are lots of
better choices.


calendaring notifications to be flaky for use as reminders. It was
usable but not robust. I still keep it as a backup e-mail client,
but I left it a long time ago. Just because it comes bundled with
the OS is not sufficient reason to suffer it. Edge, and even old
Internet Explorer, come bundled in Windows 10, but I don't use
those, either.


Ditto. Both poor browsers. Again, there are better choices. I greatly
prefer FireFox.


If the Mail app doesn't behave how you like, leave it.


One more ditto.



You should try Waterfox. It doesn't collect any information.

I think it's faster than Firefox.

https://www.waterfox.net/

On 4/18/2020 10:45 AM, Johnny wrote:
On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:31:10 -0700
Ken Blake wrote:

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Sorry, I gave up on the Mail app a couple months after installing
Windows 10. It is just too crippled for me, plus I found its


Ditto, but I stopped using it sooner than you did. As far as I'm
concerned, it's a very poor e-mail client and there are lots of
better choices.


calendaring notifications to be flaky for use as reminders. It was
usable but not robust. I still keep it as a backup e-mail client,
but I left it a long time ago. Just because it comes bundled with
the OS is not sufficient reason to suffer it. Edge, and even old
Internet Explorer, come bundled in Windows 10, but I don't use
those, either.


Ditto. Both poor browsers. Again, there are better choices. I greatly
prefer FireFox.


If the Mail app doesn't behave how you like, leave it.


One more ditto.



You should try Waterfox. It doesn't collect any information.

I think it's faster than Firefox.

https://www.waterfox.net/


I've tried it. It's not for me. I've tried most of the available
browsers, and like FireFox the best.

We all work in different ways and have different likes and dislikes.
What's best for you (or anyone else) isn't necessarily best for me.

To many people, the speed of a browser is its most important
characteristic. That's not all the case for me. The speed of FireFox is
fine. What's most important to me are a browser's features and UI.




--
Ken

VanguardLH wrote in :

Boris wrote:

Boris wrote in
.198:

My sticky clipboard kept the wrong URL (a man's gotta know his
limitations). Sincerest apologies.

Here's a more helpful one.

https://postimg.cc/4nLSsQn3

There might be the problem. By using the generic "mail" hostname, the
e-mail protocol is not hinted to the server. If you want Mail to
connect as a POP client, use pop3.comcast.net. If you want Mail to
connect as an IMAP client, use imap.comcast.net. Both resolve to the
same IP address, but the hostname provides a hint.

In order to be able to specify pop3.comcast.net, I had to, once again,
delete my Mail account, and start from scratch:

Launch MailAccountsscroll down to Advanced setupchoice
betweenExchangeActiveSync and Internet email, choose
Internet emailand fill in the fields:

https://postimg.cc/ZvkcS3zL

Result:

Even though those settings resulted in a 'successful' set up as told to
me by the Mail app...The initial opening of the new account greeted me
with "Hold on while we fetch your email". But, Mail would not sync (the
quintet of 'sync' dots just kept moving left to right, as long as I'd let
it go on, with no email showing up). There was no 'add a folder'
function, 'delete' a folder, or 'move' a folder. Any attempt at sending
email only got as far as the Outbasket, stuck forever. The "Change
mailbox sync settings" was greyed out. All that was available was
"Delete account", so I did.

If this time I do the same as above, but enter mail.comcast.net and
select IMAP4, I also get a 'successful' setup. This time, all IMAP
functions are available, and they work back and forth between Comcast
host and Mail client. Also, the "Change mailbox sync settings" is
available now, and when I go to check in/out settings, they are still
mail and smtp .comcast.net, even though I seleted IMAP4, and things are
acting IMAPy. I can only chuckle.

Finally, if one has set up Mail by selecting "Other, POP"

https://postimg.cc/dD4kSj3F

(rather than going to "Advanced setup")

there is no opportunity to select a host's server. All that's needed is
email addy, display name, and password, and the setup will be successful.
Here's what you get if you go back to "Change mailbox sync settings".

https://postimg.cc/hXmgFKDn

And if you do change the settings to POP, the next time you go back into
"Change mailbox sync settings" to see if they are indeed POP, you will be
shown POP, but Mail will still act IMAPy. Like you said, Mail acts the
same way as it was first set up, unless it's deleted and re-setup.

Here's a shot of my Comcast web mail folder after I deleted the
"Saturday" folder created in Mail. The shot was taken before I refreshed
the Comcast web mail. Once refreshed, "Saturday" was also gone from the
web mail.

https://postimg.cc/PC0cyp0H

So, I thought I had changed from IMAP to POP, and Mail let me think that,
but no change had taken place.

Mail is crippled, and it does what most non-IT types need it to do. Buy
a new Windows 10 Home Premium pc when you're old one slows down, accept
all default settings, and all will be fine. Sounds like my Apple
friends.

VanguardLH, thanks for the reply. It's a keeper.





While that might work, it won't change the Mail app's own behavior. If
Microsoft wanted their Mail app's POP behavior to emulate a limited
feature set, like staying in sync with the UID list up on the server,
using a different hostname for the mail server won't change that
behavior. With the dearth of options in the Mail app, you cannot
configure it behave like the old-fashioned POP clients you are used to
for their behaviors.

A client can make POP behavior emulate some IMAP features, like issuing
a UID or LIST command to stay in sync with the current set of messages
upon the server. POP can't be made to completely emulate IMAP, but it
can be made to have some of IMAP's features.

Johnny wrote in news:20200418124500.4ab09a99@mx:

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:31:10 -0700
Ken Blake wrote:

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Sorry, I gave up on the Mail app a couple months after installing
Windows 10. It is just too crippled for me, plus I found its


Ditto, but I stopped using it sooner than you did. As far as I'm
concerned, it's a very poor e-mail client and there are lots of
better choices.


calendaring notifications to be flaky for use as reminders. It was
usable but not robust. I still keep it as a backup e-mail client,
but I left it a long time ago. Just because it comes bundled with
the OS is not sufficient reason to suffer it. Edge, and even old
Internet Explorer, come bundled in Windows 10, but I don't use
those, either.


Ditto. Both poor browsers. Again, there are better choices. I greatly
prefer FireFox.


If the Mail app doesn't behave how you like, leave it.


One more ditto.



You should try Waterfox. It doesn't collect any information.

I think it's faster than Firefox.

https://www.waterfox.net/


I've used it, and still have it installed, but it takes forever to load.

Boris wrote:

Looks like you've learned as did others that the Mail app is only for
boobs who are willing to accept the default configs and default
behaviors of that app, and is nowhere as robust as a desktop e-mail
client. Even the ancient Outlook Express was a better e-mail client.
You should dump the Mail app. I haven't used POP in a long time, and
changed to IMAP like 2 decades ago. The Mail app works okay for my IMAP
accounts (Comcast, Gmail) and my Exchange/ActiveSync account (Hotmail),
but it merely remains on my computer as a backup e-mail client. If it
screws up anymore than it does already, I'll delete the accounts in it,
so it doesn't poll anywhere or touch any of my e-mail accounts.

"Johnny" wrote in message
news:20200418124500.4ab09a99@mx...
On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:31:10 -0700
Ken Blake wrote:

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Snip

You should try Waterfox. It doesn't collect any information.

I think it's faster than Firefox.

https://www.waterfox.net/


FYI
Waterfox was sold to Privacy One Group Ltd last December
- https://www.ghacks.net/2020/02/14/wa...ld-to-system1/

--
Regards
wasbit

wasbit wrote:

"Johnny" wrote in message
news:20200418124500.4ab09a99@mx...
On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:31:10 -0700
Ken Blake wrote:

On 4/18/2020 10:18 AM, VanguardLH wrote:

Snip

You should try Waterfox. It doesn't collect any information.

I think it's faster than Firefox.

https://www.waterfox.net/


FYI
Waterfox was sold to Privacy One Group Ltd last December
- https://www.ghacks.net/2020/02/14/wa...ld-to-system1/

Acquisition of startpage.com by System1 (subsidiary of Privacy Group Ltd
aka PGL) was back on Nov 15, 2019. Yet their "About us" page has not
been updated (https://www.startpage.com/en/about-us/).

https://restoreprivacy.com/startpage...acy-one-group/

Disturbing information about StartPage.

I know some users will recommend DuckDuckGo as a replacement for
StartPage; however, DuckDuckGo operates within the USA which is one of
the Five Eyes countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes). The
DOJ could issue (and maybe has but no one would know) an NSL (National
Security Letter) against DuckDuckGo that forces them to log and release
info about its users, and the NSL legally prohibits the victim from ever
disclosing they are operating under a NSL order.

Getting harder to find a safe search engine. A couple months after
acquiring StartPage, PGL acquired Waterfox. Hmm, how does one acquire
open-source software? Can't anyone could produce a fork of Waterfox?

https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/0...red-by-system1
From Waterfox's creator, Alex Kontos:
" I've touted Waterfox as an ethical and privacy friendly browser... I
never wanted Waterfox to be a part of the hyper-privacy community."

So, just how private was Waterfox? When does "privacy friendly" become
"hyper-private"? Kontos is now listed as an executive at System1.