netbooks

On 2/21/2013 7:41 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:55:14 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 2:53 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:53:19 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 1:34 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Since updates that require reboots comes out at least every two
months, either you are an irresponsible user or fibbing

Really? Asus sold netbooks with XP2 with 4GB SSD soldered on the
motherboard and it is impossible to update these machines. And Microsoft

What is "XP2"? And what does having an SSD soldered to the board have
to do with installing update patches for the OS?

Oh did I typed that? I know what I meant was XP SP2. 4GB SSD soldered to
the motherboard meant that unless you are really skilled at soldering
and have the equipment, 4GB is it. I don't think you could install XP
SP2 with an install disc, as 4GB is probably too small with temp files
and all.

So, how does that preclude installing windows updates?

Half of my machines I install updates and half of them I don't. And I
also know most of those so called experts will tell you that without
updates you are at risk. And I too thought this makes total sense.
Although while I backup everything if anything goes wrong, I am still
covered.

And having experience with half always updated and half not. The thing
that really protects you is an up to date AV and a firewall (or router).
Updates can actually break things and they have many times. And you can
have a zillion updates and they can't match the protection of an up to
date AV and a firewall (or router). A sandbox doesn't hurt either just
in case. Just those alone blows away anything that any updatse can do.

So, how does having a hard wired SSD preclude you installing updates?

Because the hardwired SSD only has 4GB and has XP SP2 installed. And if
you try to update, very quickly Windows will crash as it runs out of
room. Now you have a hosed XP system and you can't use it that way.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

On 2/21/2013 7:33 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:29:56 -0600]:

Oh yeah, name some programs.

I did a lot of programming through the 80's and early 90's. Mainly
because nobody was writing the programs that I wanted or needed (like
many others back then). And when you as an electronic engineer designed
something new, no software programmer on the planet knew how to program
for it anyway. So I had to do it first.

Oh yeah, name some programs.

Name some? Hell I don't recall what I named them. Some where disk
editors, text editors, BBS software, video drivers, etc. One place you
can get a list of some of them was a yearly published file list book
from Quantum Link (later known as AOL). And if you find one of these,
look for software by WilliamW23.

dreamt about it. I didn't really like programming too much, as bug free
code meant lots of caffeine and many nights with little or no sleep. But

Yes, too much caffeine and no sleep just screams bug free to me.

Oh you would be surprised how much you could do. The whole computer
revolution started that way. This is what build Apple and Microsoft to
what they are today. Without this, they would have faded long ago. And

And Apple and Microsoft are renowned for writing bug free code?

Oh man! You missed the point completely. You should see the _PBS Triumph
of the Nerds_. This explains everything you ever wanted to know and
about the excessive caffeine drinking.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

On 2/21/2013 6:58 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Half of my machines I install updates and half of them I don't. And I
also know most of those so called experts will tell you that without
updates you are at risk. And I too thought this makes total sense.
Although while I backup everything if anything goes wrong, I am still
covered.

The updates do not prevent problems from reaching your computer, they
patch known vulnerabilities for when problem code makes it through your
router, firewall and AV.

Yes I know. That is the claim anyway. And since Microsoft has been known
to patch known security holes up to 7 years later, I would find other
methods for protection than to trust Microsoft to take care of it for you.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

On 2/21/2013 6:55 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Oh did I typed that? I know what I meant was XP SP2. 4GB SSD soldered to
the motherboard meant that unless you are really skilled at soldering
and have the equipment, 4GB is it. I don't think you could install XP
SP2 with an install disc, as 4GB is probably too small with temp files
and all.

Downloading patches from Microsoft does not require an install disk.

Yeah so? What does that have anything to do with it? When you install
updates, they create temp files. Then suddenly the 4GB is out of disk
space and Windows crashes. And now Windows is totally trashed and is
completely unusable.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

On 2/21/2013 6:52 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Fortunately, this machine's Sleep/Hibernate problems are that bad. If
I use Sleep, it merely borks Aero Glass effects until I do a restart.
Hibernation actually causes more serious issues, in that for some
reason it causes system slowdowns that I first really notice with my
mouse - the cursor no longer moves as fast across the screen as it's
set to.

Is this a machine that you built, or one branded machines that came with
so and so OS?

It's a name brand, it came with Vista x64 and had no problems. It was
later upgraded to Win7 x64 via direct-from-Microsoft upgrade disk on
7's release day and that's when my Sleep/Hibernate problem started. The
name brand declined to assist because I did not get the OS upgrade from
them, MS declined to assist because, well, they're Microsoft.

Net result, I just either leave it running or shut it down.

Oh yes, this happens more times than I can count. Usually it is a driver
issue which was written for an earlier version of Windows. Sometimes you
can avoid some problems by installing the driver in compatibility mode.

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

BillW50 wrote:


When I volunteered to be tested against civilian EE grads, I was shocked
that most of them had problems even biasing a simple transistor
correctly. No wonder most companies will hire one with a military EE
degree over a civilian one.


Actually, they hire people with practical experience.
That's how you "get someone who has biased a transistor".

You can hire a civilian EE, if that person has done the job
before. I had three summer jobs designing things, and
at the time, had just finished designing my own computer
from scratch (ran at a blistering 3MHz, on a foot
square breadboard). I managed to run 256 instructions of hand
assembled code in it (by reading the instruction set
manual, and working out the opcodes and operands by hand).

(This is the breadboard I used. Mine has one black and three
red terminals. I still use this. Right now, it has my LED
sorting circuit on it. This is supposed to be "RF quality",
but in truth, it was horrible. Just as bad as any
conventional breadboard similar to it. Other digital circuits
on here, had noise problems. ACE 236 breadboard.)

http://www.bmius.com/images/Product/large/35009.jpg

This is the processor I used. The processor is so large,
you can write the signal names on the white ceramic lid.
Used four phase non-overlapping clocks, to coordinate the
internal logic. It took something like a thousand plugged
in pieces of wire, to wire up the circuit and the support
chips. (Like the tiny capacity RAM chips.)

http://www.cpushack.com/chippics/TI/...ITMS9900JL.jpg

The ugly part of that project, was the clock generator.
Needed to be buffered with a handful of transistors,
switching 12V amplitude signals. My first clock generator,
the chip burned out - it overheated. We didn't use fans
back then - I don't think brushless DC fans existed
at the time. Everything was supposed to run cool enough,
you only needed passive cooling. This was the basic chip,
and by adding transistor buffers to the thing, it isolated
the capacitive load of the processor, from this chip.
So it wouldn't burn out. The upper four MOS signals
needed to be buffered.

http://www.ti99.com/tms9904d.gif

*******

In my graduating class, there were only two of us with
practical experience. We both ended up working for the
same company. As digital designers. Both of our first
designs were a disaster. He had the misfortune to
design with 74S, and our company didn't yet possess
the right (multilayer) PCB technology for it. So his circuit
had never-ending noise problems. Mine suffered a different fate.
I designed my circuit with single edge clocking
(nothing really out of the ordinary), I guess because
the circuit wasn't a technical challenge. The wakeup
call I got, was when the factory informed me, that they
bought ICs from as many as fifteen different manufacturers,
and as soon as they started mixing and matching at random,
my design blew up (the timing was never meant to handle a
3:1 mix of timings). I ended up doing a redesign, using
opposite edge clocking, to make the design bulletproof.
You could use any brand of chips you wanted after that, and
the design technique works well enough, you hardly have to
check the timing (hahaha). I learned a *lot* about our
company component database that year.

We didn't seem to have very good "design reviews" back then.
We had design reviews, but they weren't as timely as they
could be.

And that's how generous companies, provide practical
experience to young engineers. We didn't even get fired :-)

You see, my practical experience up to that point, didn't
involves factories or production issues. I just made
one-off circuits, and only the prototype had to work.
You learn fast, when your butt is being kicked :-)

Paul

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:13:14 -0600, BillW50 wrote:

On 2/21/2013 7:41 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:55:14 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 2:53 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:53:19 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 1:34 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Since updates that require reboots comes out at least every two
months, either you are an irresponsible user or fibbing

Really? Asus sold netbooks with XP2 with 4GB SSD soldered on the
motherboard and it is impossible to update these machines. And Microsoft

What is "XP2"? And what does having an SSD soldered to the board have
to do with installing update patches for the OS?

Oh did I typed that? I know what I meant was XP SP2. 4GB SSD soldered to
the motherboard meant that unless you are really skilled at soldering
and have the equipment, 4GB is it.

I don't think you could install XP
SP2 with an install disc, as 4GB is probably too small with temp files
and all.

I did put XP SP2 on a similar rig to yours, an EeePC 2G Surf, with an
even smaller 2GB SSD drive. I found it horribly slow and difficult to
work with. IIRC I had about 300Mb left for user programs. After
playing with it for awhile I went back to the original Xandros that
came on it which if fact works quite well.

I anticipated an argument from you so I dug out the "Windows XP
Installation Guide" for the 2G Surf and it says to use "The official
Windows XP Service Pack 2 disc from Microsoft". Below it says "The
older version Windows OS does not support USB CD/DVD-ROM. Ensure the
disc you have is Windows XP Service Pack 2." The XP drivers are on the
CD that came with the netbook.

They use lots of tricks like changing virtual memory, turning off
system restore, compressing the disk, relocating files, messing with
IE temp files, moving folders, deleting unnecessary windows
components, messing with system backup data, and deleting unnecessary
document files. The installation guide gives you a step-by-step.

In short they are really shoe-horning it into the 2GB.
But it *does* work.

From my experience I doubt that you would have any trouble putting XP
SP2 into your 4GB rig, which is a very close design to mine but it may
not be any happier of an experience.

(Sorry for the late response but I was about 300 miles from the
netbook manual when the post was made...

I have to add an anecdote here that came to mind after I wrote my other
reply.

I was at the DMV waiting (that's what one does there). Next to me was a
French woman; we chatted briefly (in English), and I learned that she
had some problem that required resolution. When she was called to the
window, I said "bonne sorte", to a blank look from her.

In Spanish, "luck" is "suerte"; I (weirdly and stupidly) converted that
to French in the obvious way, to her mystification. Later I recalled the
correct phrase, "bonne chance".

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

I had a similar problem when speaking to a French girl. In some parts of
France
there's a difference between "donner un baiser" (to kiss) and baiser
(something
a great deal more intimate) I tried to tell her I wanted to kiss her hand.
Of course
I used the wrong form. Luckily, she understood the problem and didn't sock
me.

Tom Lake

Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Net result, I just either leave it running or shut it down.

Oh yes, this happens more times than I can count. Usually it is a driver
issue which was written for an earlier version of Windows. Sometimes you
can avoid some problems by installing the driver in compatibility mode.

I've reverted and upgraded the video drivers several times.

I had ordered the upgrade during MS's pre-release sale earlier in '09
and it was paid for my by employer since the purpose was so I could
have both a Vista and a 7 machine for testing.

Then they laid me off and let me keep all of the computer equipment
they've paid for over the years, including that upgrade. So when it
was released a few months later, I installed it anyway. Except for
this one niggle, I've been quite happy with the upgrade. And, as I
noted, I just live with it.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
Double ROT13 encoded for your protection

Peter's Top 100 Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord, #9. I
will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely
necessary. If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button
labelled "Danger: Do Not Push". The big red button marked "Do Not
Push" will instead trigger a spray of bullets on anyone stupid enough
to disregard it. Similarly, the ON/OFF switch will not clearly be
labelled as such.

On 2/22/2013 12:03 AM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:10:01 -0600, BillW50 wrote:

One thing that is so hard for me to grasp is English grammar. I also
stuttered a lot when I was just a kid and that probably didn't help
either. That disappeared when I grow up, but grammar is still hard for
me. I mean remembering rules is one thing, but then having exceptions to
rules is totally illogical to me. I often wonder how Spock could explain
the logical reasons for exceptions. So far, I don't get it. Why are they
there?

The thing about grammar and exceptions (and it's *all* languages, not
just English!) is that language is done by people, so stuff like that
creeps in without anyone noticing until you are a kid in grammar school
or junior high trying to make sense of it.

Actually, from what I've seen of classical Latin and Greek (and other
stuff), much of today's languages are relatively orderly. Those
exceptions, or the 12 ways of doing the same thing, tend to get leveled
out (simplified) over long spans of time, even while some new exceptions
creep in...

I'm good at languages (or was when I was younger), but still, my theory
is that all languages are difficult unless you're a native speaker,
i.e., learned it as a toddler. And maybe not even then :-)


It would be fair to say that English was not designed; rather, it was
the result of Norman men at arms trying to make time with Anglo-Saxon
bar maids!

Sprinkle with Latin. No word for some object or idea? No problem, if
we can't steal one, we'll invent one.

Humans are programed to learn language from about the age of two years
to about five years. After that, it's more difficult.

Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

On 2/21/2013 6:55 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Oh did I typed that? I know what I meant was XP SP2. 4GB SSD soldered to
the motherboard meant that unless you are really skilled at soldering
and have the equipment, 4GB is it. I don't think you could install XP
SP2 with an install disc, as 4GB is probably too small with temp files
and all.

Downloading patches from Microsoft does not require an install disk.

Yeah so? What does that have anything to do with it? When you install

Because you, or someone, was saying that because there is no way to use
an install disk, there is no way to install the updates from Microsoft.
And by the number of similar responses like mine, I'm not the only one
who read that.

--
Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org
Double ROT13 encoded for your protection

"They're merely expressing their feelings for me." "I can do that."
[Timov slaps Londo] "You haven't changed." "You have. You've
devolved." (Amb. Mollari and Timov, B5 "Soul Mates")

On 2/22/2013 8:16 PM, AL wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:13:14 -0600, wrote:

On 2/21/2013 7:41 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:55:14 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 2:53 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:53:19 -0600]:
On 2/21/2013 1:34 PM, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:
Previously on alt.cellular.verizon, BillW50 said:

Since updates that require reboots comes out at least every two
months, either you are an irresponsible user or fibbing

Really? Asus sold netbooks with XP2 with 4GB SSD soldered on the
motherboard and it is impossible to update these machines. And Microsoft

What is "XP2"? And what does having an SSD soldered to the board have
to do with installing update patches for the OS?

Oh did I typed that? I know what I meant was XP SP2. 4GB SSD soldered to
the motherboard meant that unless you are really skilled at soldering
and have the equipment, 4GB is it.

I don't think you could install XP
SP2 with an install disc, as 4GB is probably too small with temp files
and all.

I did put XP SP2 on a similar rig to yours, an EeePC 2G Surf, with an
even smaller 2GB SSD drive. I found it horribly slow and difficult to
work with. IIRC I had about 300Mb left for user programs. After
playing with it for awhile I went back to the original Xandros that
came on it which if fact works quite well.

That is remarkable! I don't recall one single post on the eeeuser forum
of anybody ever getting XP SP2 to fit without chopping it down with
XPlite. I even installed Windows 2000 on one with 4GB. The original
release only used 700MB for the full install. Sounds like that would be
perfect. But like XP can't install from an USB without XP SP2, Windows
2000 can't do the same without SP4. And Windows 2000 came out to be
1.7GB with SP4 slipstreamed.

I anticipated an argument from you so I dug out the "Windows XP
Installation Guide" for the 2G Surf and it says to use "The official
Windows XP Service Pack 2 disc from Microsoft". Below it says "The
older version Windows OS does not support USB CD/DVD-ROM. Ensure the
disc you have is Windows XP Service Pack 2." The XP drivers are on the
CD that came with the netbook.

They use lots of tricks like changing virtual memory, turning off
system restore, compressing the disk, relocating files, messing with
IE temp files, moving folders, deleting unnecessary windows
components, messing with system backup data, and deleting unnecessary
document files. The installation guide gives you a step-by-step.

In short they are really shoe-horning it into the 2GB.
But it *does* work.

From my experience I doubt that you would have any trouble putting XP
SP2 into your 4GB rig, which is a very close design to mine but it may
not be any happier of an experience.

I know very much about the EeePC 2G Surf and I stayed away from that one
and went with EeePC 4G (non-upgradable) and 8G (8G SSD can be upgraded).
And one thing you did that I refused to was compressing the drive.
Performance takes a huge nose dive and that would be totally
unacceptable to me. If I did though, I am sure SP3 would have installed.

XP SP2 was different for the EeePC 4G and 8G. As it wasn't a Windows
install, but merely a Ghost v11 image. Which avoids the problem of temp
files and such during updating to SP2. And a 4GB is really a 3.7GB
formatted drive. And the best free space I ever configured it down to
was 1.3GB free. SP3 will not install without 1.5GB free.

But then again, what good is Windows if there isn't enough room to
install your favorite applications too? And after my favorite
applications installed, now there is only 400MB free. Not enough room
for virtually any amount of updates at all.

There were tricks like tricking Windows to see the SDHC card as another
fixed drive, and at least you could install applications there. But that
driver was incredibly slow. I found that mounting the SDHC as a folder
was a far faster and better idea. Except some applications were not
fooled and refused to install there. But even still, installing
everything on the SSD still worked better.

One thing I discovered with the EeePC 7 inch models, is that DPCs would
go out of control and peg the CPU and the machine would totally crawl.
But all of my tests suggest the problem goes away if you run it about 4
feet from any other device.

Then they ran very sweet. I could even play flawless full screen videos
on an external monitor at 1440x900. Not even Ubuntu or Xandros could do
the same on the same machines. Hell they couldn't do it even on the
native tiny screen either. XP SP2 was very snappy under these conditions
and very usable.

(Sorry for the late response but I was about 300 miles from the
netbook manual when the post was made...

Sure, no problem. Btw, those manuals are also available online as PDF
files. ;-)

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:42:49 -0600, BillW50 wrote:

On 2/22/2013 8:16 PM, AL wrote:

I did put XP SP2 on a similar rig to yours, an EeePC 2G Surf, with an
even smaller 2GB SSD drive.

That is remarkable! I don't recall one single post on the eeeuser forum
of anybody ever getting XP SP2 to fit without chopping it down with
XPlite.

Dunno about your forum, but a quick Google brings up several examples
of (reasonably) successful installs of XP SP2 on the 2G Surf. Here's
one:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/archive/.../t-107379.html

I know very much about the EeePC 2G Surf and I stayed away from that one

Bought my 2G Surf at Target about 5 years ago. It was an impulse buy,
$299 if I remember right. It was my first netbook and it served me
well on many trips. It still works just fine. (I use the EeePC 1015 on
trips now.)

Btw, those manuals are also available online as PDF files. ;-)

Ah, so they are. Didn't even think to look. Here's the page I was
quoting from:

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/210...?page=6#manual

On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:45:34 -0500, charlie wrote:

Christmas Gift - Weihnacht Poison as an example

Or: "One man's fish is another man's pois(s)on." :-) .
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

On 2/23/2013 12:42 AM, AL wrote:
On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:42:49 -0600, wrote:

On 2/22/2013 8:16 PM, AL wrote:

I did put XP SP2 on a similar rig to yours, an EeePC 2G Surf, with an
even smaller 2GB SSD drive.

That is remarkable! I don't recall one single post on the eeeuser forum
of anybody ever getting XP SP2 to fit without chopping it down with
XPlite.

Dunno about your forum, but a quick Google brings up several examples
of (reasonably) successful installs of XP SP2 on the 2G Surf. Here's
one:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/archive/.../t-107379.html

Oh I didn't say it couldn't be done. Especially the drive compressing
thing would ruin it for me.

I know very much about the EeePC 2G Surf and I stayed away from that one

Bought my 2G Surf at Target about 5 years ago. It was an impulse buy,
$299 if I remember right. It was my first netbook and it served me
well on many trips. It still works just fine. (I use the EeePC 1015 on
trips now.)

Yup, I went on a trip for two months and I only grabbed one EeePC with
XP SP2. I thought I might regret it and I should also take a laptop with
me. But that never happened. I was surprised how well it had performed.

I even later hooked one up to an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse
and it was flawless. I even toyed with the ideal of taking one
motherboard and dropping it into a desktop case and most people would
never know it only has netbook guts in it. ;-)

Some have have disconnected the fan for a totally noiseless machine. I
never heard anybody who later claimed that their EeePC fried from doing
so. I did run some experiments and the CPU temp only changes 10 degrees
F between off and max fan speeds (it never hit 150 degrees F ever, and
that is still safe). Although the fan is on the other side of the
motherboard and doesn't help the CPU and the northbridge that much. As
they are mainly cooled by using the keyboard as a heatsink. The bottom
side had the WiFi, RAM, and SSD. And I didn't see a major problem if one
disconnected the fan.

The mod that seemed to be killing those EeePCs in about a two month time
were those internal flash drive mods. I think you would be okay if you
got the 5 volts from one of the USB ports, as they are supposed to be
protected against overloads. I guess they are, since if I connect up an
USB DVD burner while the machine was on, the surge caused the computer
to reboot. Connect it first while it was off and then it was just fine.
But most grabbed 5 volts from an unprotected spot on the motherboard.

Btw, those manuals are also available online as PDF files. ;-)

Ah, so they are. Didn't even think to look. Here's the page I was
quoting from:

http://www.manualslib.com/manual/210...?page=6#manual

Ah... yes indeed. Thanks!

--
Bill
Motion Computing LE1700 Tablet ('09 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo L7400 1.5GHz - 2GB RAM - Windows 7 Pro SP1 (x86)