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#31
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 01:35 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
I am anything but an evangelist. Microsoft does some things very well, and other things terribly. I am simply reporting my experience with my computers, my wife's computer, and several others I support. Hi Ken, And you probably did not buy crappy computers either. A lot of my customers step over dollars to save dimes. I have probably have supported about 200 or more over two counties over the years. People who find Windows to be unstable invariably either have flaky hardware, Agreed. are infected with malware Junkware especially is a total nuisance. I have had customers with junkware bombs on them that could hardly move their mouse. I usually go into a Live USB and delete the temp files, delete offenders from the run section of the registry, and nail anything I know for sure in Program Files. Then boot back into Windows and run junkware scanners. , or have made bad mistakes in setting up and configuring it. Somewhat. And, the big one you missed is that M$'s quality sucks. If you have ever run Fedora and Windows Nein (w10) side by side on the same machine, the dead comes to life and you will know what I mean. Fedora just works. When I support Linux and Apple computers, I assist with software and configurations. I very, very seldom have to dicker with the system, fix crashes, fix jammed updates or any of that type of nonsense. Fedora is a dream to work on. The only reason to run Windows, other than if you are masochistic, is that Windows has all the applications and you can't get your work done on Apple or Linux. This is why there is no end in sight for Windows. And there are ways to cope with Windows. I have a set of "Windows Self Defense" rules I give my customers: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need 2) Windows is not ready when you boot it. It only looks ready. That is a marketing tool to make you think Windows boots faster that it does. Wait a bit before starting to use it. Getting a cup of coffee is perfect. 3) only have open what you are using. DO NOT start every program you think you might use that day and leave it running. 4) Windows typically crashes on the installment program. Do not wait for the "spectacular" crash. As soon as Windows starts acting "weird" -- arrow keys stop working, etc. -- reboot your machine. 5) Windows need a reboot once a day to remain stable. A nightly power off is perfect. And turn off "Fast Boot" More than you wanted to know? Huh? -T |
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#32
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 02:51 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 12/28/2017 2:44 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 12/28/2017 2:09 PM, T wrote: On 12/28/2017 08:52 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 12/28/2017 10:04 AM, Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 00:01:17 -0800, T wrote: The bad news is that Windows is not a stable operating system. I completely disagree. The good news is that you can cope by shutting down or reboot once a day I *never* do that--not unless an update requires it,Â* or I am going away on vacation. And Windows remains completely stable. Plus computers are like car tires, the longer you use them, the quicker they wear out. I completely disagree with that too. +1 Rene Hi Ken and Rene, This the only place I find anyone who thinks Windows is stable. If you guys are not being tech evangelists (fan boys) and are actually being honest, it is a good thing that your experience if different than mine.Â* Means there is hope for Windows. Also keep in mind that I only get called when things go wrong.Â* And, glossing over quality issues in Windows does not serve my customers well. Rather than smothering my customers with M$ marketing bull s***, I try to coach folks in the direction as to what will make Windows more stable.Â* Actually shutting the damned thing off at night is a good start. Since I do not charge for five minute calls, when I show up at a bizarre Windows 8+ problem and simply pull the power plug and turn off Fast Boot, I do take it in the shorts.Â* I do not bill for travel time and do not have a minimum charge.Â* Hopefully they have other things that need fixing too, but quite often not. I make a good living off of Windows poor quality, except for fast boot. -T I am being quite honest about this, I am not an expert but classify myself as Having plenty of knowledge and experience (since 1975) on various systems, WindowsÂ* is an extremely complex system which means I will never be an expert but mostly manage to tame it to my liking. I start it when I get up and turn it off when I go to bed. I do a lot of experimenting and break it when things go wrong, So I always have various copies of backups when required. When I leave it alone it behaves very well week after week, no problems. So yes It is stable, but I also have a good stable i9 system an an Asus motherboard and a good 850 watt Coolermaster power supply which all helps. Rene Sorry for the blunder, I must have been dreaming when I typed i9 !!! I meant i7. Rene Somewhere out there I heard Intel was working on an i9. Maybe you had that on the brain? I can't tell much difference between an i5 and and i7 on Windows (I can on Linux), so I tell folks to put their money towards a fast hard drive, like an NVMe drive. I recommend and sell Samsung drives SSD drives. Stay away from Intel drives. I learned the hard way. |
#33
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PC insomnia
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:09:57 -0800, T wrote:
On 12/28/2017 01:35 PM, Ken Blake wrote: I am anything but an evangelist. Microsoft does some things very well, and other things terribly. I am simply reporting my experience with my computers, my wife's computer, and several others I support. Hi Ken, And you probably did not buy crappy computers either. A lot of my customers step over dollars to save dimes. Yes, but then don't blame their problems on Windows. I have probably have supported about 200 or more over two counties over the years. People who find Windows to be unstable invariably either have flaky hardware, Agreed. are infected with malware Junkware especially is a total nuisance. I have had customers with junkware bombs on them that could hardly move their mouse. I usually go into a Live USB and delete the temp files, delete offenders from the run section of the registry, and nail anything I know for sure in Program Files. Then boot back into Windows and run junkware scanners. , or have made bad mistakes in setting up and configuring it. Somewhat. And, the big one you missed is that M$'s quality sucks. Once again, I completely disagree. If you have ever run Fedora and Windows Nein (w10) side by side on the same machine, the dead comes to life and you will know what I mean. I've never run any version on Linux on any machine. I have no interest in it, and I have no problems with Windows. Fedora just works. When I support Linux and Apple computers, I assist with software and configurations. I very, very seldom have to dicker with the system, fix crashes, fix jammed updates or any of that type of nonsense. Fedora is a dream to work on. The only reason to run Windows, other than if you are masochistic, is that Windows has all the applications and you can't get your work done on Apple or Linux. This is why there is no end in sight for Windows. Again, I disagree. And there are ways to cope with Windows. I have a set of "Windows Self Defense" rules I give my customers: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need I disagree. What you install is insignificant. What you run is significant. 2) Windows is not ready when you boot it. It only looks ready. That is a marketing tool to make you think Windows boots faster that it does. Wait a bit before starting to use it. Getting a cup of coffee is perfect. Again, I disagree. 3) only have open what you are using. DO NOT start every program you think you might use that day and leave it running. Depends on the program. With most programs, doing so doesn't matter. 4) Windows typically crashes on the installment program. Do not wait for the "spectacular" crash. As soon as Windows starts acting "weird" -- arrow keys stop working, etc. -- reboot your machine. Windows never starts acting "weird" here. 5) Windows need a reboot once a day to remain stable. A nightly power off is perfect. Again, I strongly disagree. Windows is completely stable and I never reboot . I'll say it one more time: " I *never* do that--not unless an update requires it,Â* or I am going away on vacation. And Windows remains completely stable." And turn off "Fast Boot" More than you wanted to know? Huh? What I know is that I strongly disagree with your "Windows Self Defense rules." |
#34
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PC insomnia
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:38:40 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need I disagree. What you install is insignificant. What you run is significant. And even that isn't always significant. For most programs, if they are running, but not actively being used, they quickly get paged out and have no effect on performance or anything else. |
#35
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 06:00 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:38:40 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need I disagree. What you install is insignificant. What you run is significant. And even that isn't always significant. For most programs, if they are running, but not actively being used, they quickly get paged out and have no effect on performance or anything else. It used to be that very few programs had to be installed. You just run them. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "The weirdest way to fantasize While frigid Solstice thaws Imagine- Christless Christmastime! replaced by... "Jesus Claus"? [Gerald Tholen] |
#36
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 04:00 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:38:40 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need I disagree. What you install is insignificant. What you run is significant. And even that isn't always significant. For most programs, if they are running, but not actively being used, they quickly get paged out and have no effect on performance or anything else. Ken, You are missing all the S*** that gets copied into system32 and the DLL hell it sometimes can create. Not to mention if you remove a program and it clobbers a shared DLL. Windows is a house of cards, but you can cope with it and never land on what I am speaking of if you follow a the few simple rules I point out. -T |
#37
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 5:19 PM, T wrote:
On 12/28/2017 02:51 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 12/28/2017 2:44 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 12/28/2017 2:09 PM, T wrote: On 12/28/2017 08:52 AM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 12/28/2017 10:04 AM, Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 00:01:17 -0800, T wrote: The bad news is that Windows is not a stable operating system. I completely disagree. The good news is that you can cope by shutting down or reboot once a day I *never* do that--not unless an update requires it,Â* or I am going away on vacation. And Windows remains completely stable. Plus computers are like car tires, the longer you use them, the quicker they wear out. I completely disagree with that too. +1 Rene Hi Ken and Rene, This the only place I find anyone who thinks Windows is stable. If you guys are not being tech evangelists (fan boys) and are actually being honest, it is a good thing that your experience if different than mine.Â* Means there is hope for Windows. Also keep in mind that I only get called when things go wrong.Â* And, glossing over quality issues in Windows does not serve my customers well. Rather than smothering my customers with M$ marketing bull s***, I try to coach folks in the direction as to what will make Windows more stable.Â* Actually shutting the damned thing off at night is a good start. Since I do not charge for five minute calls, when I show up at a bizarre Windows 8+ problem and simply pull the power plug and turn off Fast Boot, I do take it in the shorts.Â* I do not bill for travel time and do not have a minimum charge.Â* Hopefully they have other things that need fixing too, but quite often not. I make a good living off of Windows poor quality, except for fast boot. -T I am being quite honest about this, I am not an expert but classify myself as Having plenty of knowledge and experience (since 1975) on various systems, WindowsÂ* is an extremely complex system which means I will never be an expert but mostly manage to tame it to my liking. I start it when I get up and turn it off when I go to bed. I do a lot of experimenting and break it when things go wrong, So I always have various copies of backups when required. When I leave it alone it behaves very well week after week, no problems. So yes It is stable, but I also have a good stable i9 system an an Asus motherboard and a good 850 watt Coolermaster power supply which all helps. Rene Sorry for the blunder, I must have been dreaming when I typed i9 !!! I meant i7. Rene Somewhere out there I heard Intel was working on an i9.Â* Maybe you had that on the brain? I can't tell much difference between an i5 and and i7 on Windows (I can on Linux), so I tell folks to put their money towards a fast hard drive, like an NVMe drive. I recommend and sell Samsung drives SSD drives. Stay away from Intel drives.Â* I learned the hard way. The i9 is out now, 10, 12 and 18 core, Sells for up to $2600.00 for the i8 core. Apple is supposed to be using them in their Super high price iMacs which start at $4999.00 up to about $13000.00 Rene |
#38
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 05:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
The i9 is out now, 10, 12 and 18 core, Sells for up to $2600.00 for the i8 core. Apple is supposed to be using them in their Super high price iMacs which start at $4999.00 up to about $13000.00 Me thinks a waste of money, but I haven't tried one. A fast NVMe drive makes all the difference int he world. 18 cores? Reminds me of the commercials for shavers that make fun of multi blade shavers by showing a 10 blade shaver. How in the world will all 18 cores talk over the same busses? Oh well... |
#39
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 7:26 PM, T wrote:
On 12/28/2017 05:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: The i9 is out now, 10, 12 and 18 core, Sells for up to $2600.00 for the i8 core. Apple is supposed to be using them in their Super high price iMacs which start at $4999.00 up to about $13000.00 Me thinks a waste of money, but I haven't tried one.Â* A fast NVMe drive makes all the difference int he world. 18 cores?Â* Reminds me of the commercials for shavers that make fun of multi blade shavers by showing a 10 blade shaver. How in the world will all 18 cores talk over the same busses?Â* Oh well... Methinks it will be a long time before software is available for it, Maybe Cadcam software. And professional people with awful deep pockets. Rene |
#40
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PC insomnia
T wrote:
On 12/28/2017 05:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: The i9 is out now, 10, 12 and 18 core, Sells for up to $2600.00 for the i8 core. Apple is supposed to be using them in their Super high price iMacs which start at $4999.00 up to about $13000.00 Me thinks a waste of money, but I haven't tried one. A fast NVMe drive makes all the difference int he world. 18 cores? Reminds me of the commercials for shavers that make fun of multi blade shavers by showing a 10 blade shaver. How in the world will all 18 cores talk over the same busses? Oh well... The previous generation of monsters like that, used counter-rotating rings. Which doesn't sound all that good. The newer generation uses a mesh (bus grid). There are some pictures of the old and new here. There were also some pictures on anandtech, showing how the rings worked on the old high-core-count ones. https://wccftech.com/intel-skylake-x...-interconnect/ The AMD "Infinity Fabric" is some kind of mesh too, but I can't find any really exceptionally detailed pictures. I don't like "fluffy cloud" pictures for tech, if I can avoid them. Apparently, both the AMD CPU and GPU use that connection method. But again, without pictures, it's hard to say why in the case of a GPU. Where the caches are located on these things is important. If the interconnect between cores has a high latency, it doesn't take much to make a "far" cache, be about the same speed as a main memory access. Making it functionally useless. So those papers all those grad students wrote twenty years ago, are finally coming to pass. (I had an IEEE membership back then, and some of the CPU papers were a practical joke, because at the time, who could afford to build them ?) The thing is, with modern silicon, there is plenty of room for goofy stuff. But it costs money and takes time to design those gates, and that's the really amazing part of these things - knowing how hard it is to make bulletproof things that are ready for production. There's probably no microcode to patch a bug in the mesh station. So let's hope they started the mesh project ten years ago, and had plenty of time to test prototypes or whatever. Paul |
#41
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PC insomnia
Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 12/28/2017 7:26 PM, T wrote: On 12/28/2017 05:03 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote: The i9 is out now, 10, 12 and 18 core, Sells for up to $2600.00 for the i8 core. Apple is supposed to be using them in their Super high price iMacs which start at $4999.00 up to about $13000.00 Me thinks a waste of money, but I haven't tried one. A fast NVMe drive makes all the difference int he world. 18 cores? Reminds me of the commercials for shavers that make fun of multi blade shavers by showing a 10 blade shaver. How in the world will all 18 cores talk over the same busses? Oh well... Methinks it will be a long time before software is available for it, Maybe Cadcam software. And professional people with awful deep pockets. Rene The Google developers who work on Chrome/Chromium, use processors like that for their builds, as well as linking to a ton of other boxes to accelerate the build. In fact, stuff like that is how a software developer knows his or her boss, loves them. When they buy a big thing like that for them to play with. I bet if Microsoft developers could talk in public, they'd probably mention getting machines like that too. They're not given quad cores any more. Only a cheap manager would do that. Paul |
#42
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 04:48 PM, T wrote:
Windows is a house of cards, but you can cope with it and never land on what I am speaking of if you follow a the few simple rules I point out. Although my rules would have not helped with this, I am in the process of PCI certifying sever Windows 7 computers. Four of the seven had their updates crashed. I wrote the fix as a tip over on the Window 7 group. Windows is a house of cards and as some have reported over here, some never have an issue with it. M$ Update service is a PAIN IN THE ASS. It speaks to M$'s quality control issues. This kind of update crap does not happen to this extent in any other OS. |
#43
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PC insomnia
T wrote:
On 12/28/2017 04:48 PM, T wrote: Windows is a house of cards, but you can cope with it and never land on what I am speaking of if you follow a the few simple rules I point out. Although my rules would have not helped with this, I am in the process of PCI certifying sever Windows 7 computers. Four of the seven had their updates crashed. I wrote the fix as a tip over on the Window 7 group. Windows is a house of cards and as some have reported over here, some never have an issue with it. M$ Update service is a PAIN IN THE ASS. It speaks to M$'s quality control issues. This kind of update crap does not happen to this extent in any other OS. It's actually a design issue, and not a quality issue. Windows Update does not scale well, the more updates that are poured into the database. Microsoft has attempted to fix this, by switching Windows 7 over to jumbo "one a month" updates. This is an attempt to hide the problem. However, for a guy like you, this doesn't solve the problem of "how do I get to Nirvana?". The thing is, you have to get patched up enough, to load the Patch Tuesday one, and if wuauserv is spinning in circles, that might not happen for hours and hours. Just getting prepared to get there, is a problem. In the past, we found an article identifying two patches that put the OS in an "as ready as it's gonna get" state, and from there, you can attempt the latest Patch Tuesday cumulative. OK, so I think the search term I need is '369. Maybe these will serve as a bread crumb. http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/...aspx?q=3020369 http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/...aspx?q=3125574 The people at wsusoffline deal with this too. They actually have a file in their download, which lists the "pre-requisite" patches to make Windows Update work. For Vista, there were at least five patches that made up their list. (I actually got Windows Update working on Vista once - it's a metric bitch!!!) And if I needed to bootstrap myself today on the topic, I might dig around my Wsusoffline collection for a hint. If an OS has gone out of support there, then you have to dig up the "last" version they offer, to get the desired patch list. For example, the last WinXP-supporting version was 9.2.1. Vista is no longer being supported, so you'd have to discover which version was the last for Vista, to get their best guess as to the patch list to use. Basically, any patch that has win32k.sys, atmfd.sys, or some GDI thing, would have a lot of dependencies that caused Windows Update to loop for hours on end. The people at Wsusoffline know exactly which files are the troublemakers, they analyze incoming patches and figure out which patch supersedes one already in their short list, and that becomes the "new fixer" on the list. And so on. That's the methodology. I'm not good enough at that, to do it myself. I tried my own hand at Vista. And failed. Twice. I used their list on the third try, and it worked. It took *days* for those combined experiments. There was even hair loss and a blood pressure rise. I almost bought a Balmer dart board. Paul |
#44
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PC insomnia
On 12/28/2017 10:31 PM, Paul wrote:
T wrote: On 12/28/2017 04:48 PM, T wrote: Windows is a house of cards, but you can cope with it and never land on what I am speaking of if you follow a the few simple rules I point out. Although my rules would have not helped with this, I am in the process of PCI certifying sever Windows 7 computers. Four of the seven had their updates crashed.Â* I wrote the fix as a tip over on the Window 7 group. Windows is a house of cards and as some have reported over here, some never have an issue with it. M$ Update service is a PAIN IN THE ASS.Â* It speaks to M$'s quality control issues.Â* This kind of update crap does not happen to this extent in any other OS. It's actually a design issue, and not a quality issue. Windows Update does not scale well, the more updates that are poured into the database. Microsoft has attempted to fix this, by switching Windows 7 over to jumbo "one a month" updates. This is an attempt to hide the problem. However, for a guy like you, this doesn't solve the problem of "how do I get to Nirvana?". The thing is, you have to get patched up enough, to load the Patch Tuesday one, and if wuauserv is spinning in circles, that might not happen for hours and hours. Just getting prepared to get there, is a problem. In the past, we found an article identifying two patches that put the OS in an "as ready as it's gonna get" state, and from there, you can attempt the latest Patch Tuesday cumulative. OK, so I think the search term I need is '369. Maybe these will serve as a bread crumb. Â*Â*Â* http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/...aspx?q=3020369 Â*Â*Â* http://catalog.update.microsoft.com/...aspx?q=3125574 The people at wsusoffline deal with this too. They actually have a file in their download, which lists the "pre-requisite" patches to make Windows Update work. For Vista, there were at least five patches that made up their list. (I actually got Windows Update working on Vista once - it's a metric bitch!!!) And if I needed to bootstrap myself today on the topic, I might dig around my Wsusoffline collection for a hint. If an OS has gone out of support there, then you have to dig up the "last" version they offer, to get the desired patch list. For example, the last WinXP-supporting version was 9.2.1. Vista is no longer being supported, so you'd have to discover which version was the last for Vista, to get their best guess as to the patch list to use. Basically, any patch that has win32k.sys, atmfd.sys, or some GDI thing, would have a lot of dependencies that caused Windows Update to loop for hours on end. The people at Wsusoffline know exactly which files are the troublemakers, they analyze incoming patches and figure out which patch supersedes one already in their short list, and that becomes the "new fixer" on the list. And so on. That's the methodology. I'm not good enough at that, to do it myself. I tried my own hand at Vista. And failed. Twice. I used their list on the third try, and it worked. It took *days* for those combined experiments. There was even hair loss and a blood pressure rise. I almost bought a Balmer dart board. Â*Â* Paul Awesome read. Thank you! "design issue, and not a quality issue" are the same thing to me. But I see your difference. |
#45
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PC insomnia
On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:38:40 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: On Thu, 28 Dec 2017 15:09:57 -0800, T wrote: On 12/28/2017 01:35 PM, Ken Blake wrote: I am anything but an evangelist. Microsoft does some things very well, and other things terribly. I am simply reporting my experience with my computers, my wife's computer, and several others I support. Hi Ken, And you probably did not buy crappy computers either. A lot of my customers step over dollars to save dimes. Yes, but then don't blame their problems on Windows. I have probably have supported about 200 or more over two counties over the years. People who find Windows to be unstable invariably either have flaky hardware, Agreed. are infected with malware Junkware especially is a total nuisance. I have had customers with junkware bombs on them that could hardly move their mouse. I usually go into a Live USB and delete the temp files, delete offenders from the run section of the registry, and nail anything I know for sure in Program Files. Then boot back into Windows and run junkware scanners. , or have made bad mistakes in setting up and configuring it. Somewhat. And, the big one you missed is that M$'s quality sucks. Once again, I completely disagree. If you have ever run Fedora and Windows Nein (w10) side by side on the same machine, the dead comes to life and you will know what I mean. I've never run any version on Linux on any machine. I have no interest in it, and I have no problems with Windows. Fedora just works. When I support Linux and Apple computers, I assist with software and configurations. I very, very seldom have to dicker with the system, fix crashes, fix jammed updates or any of that type of nonsense. Fedora is a dream to work on. The only reason to run Windows, other than if you are masochistic, is that Windows has all the applications and you can't get your work done on Apple or Linux. This is why there is no end in sight for Windows. Again, I disagree. And there are ways to cope with Windows. I have a set of "Windows Self Defense" rules I give my customers: 1) do not "collect" software. Be minimalist and only install what you need I disagree. What you install is insignificant. What you run is significant. 2) Windows is not ready when you boot it. It only looks ready. That is a marketing tool to make you think Windows boots faster that it does. Wait a bit before starting to use it. Getting a cup of coffee is perfect. Again, I disagree. 3) only have open what you are using. DO NOT start every program you think you might use that day and leave it running. Depends on the program. With most programs, doing so doesn't matter. 4) Windows typically crashes on the installment program. Do not wait for the "spectacular" crash. As soon as Windows starts acting "weird" -- arrow keys stop working, etc. -- reboot your machine. Windows never starts acting "weird" here. 5) Windows need a reboot once a day to remain stable. A nightly power off is perfect. Again, I strongly disagree. Windows is completely stable and I never reboot . I'll say it one more time: " I *never* do that--not unless an update requires it,* or I am going away on vacation. And Windows remains completely stable." And turn off "Fast Boot" More than you wanted to know? Huh? What I know is that I strongly disagree with your "Windows Self Defense rules." Ditto on everything you said above. Todd's rules only apply to Todd. Most people don't have the problems that he seems to keep running into. |
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