is battery dead?

On 29/03/2015 02:20, VanguardLH wrote:
Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.

the laptop is Toshiba P205D-S8802, I bought the battery 3 months ago
from aliexpress, it's a LI-ion , china,
(http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6...64231777316781)
the adapter is the original toshiba one.
I tried removing the battery, uninstalling its drivers the re_installing
them, nothing changed.
My question: the battery (charged at 10%) not being charged when
computer shutted down, (its lamp is off), can be a windows issue?

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:20:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.

Can I ask a question that I hope it not too vague? I was given a
Kindle recently that I don't really need at present. Should I leave
it in the box so there are no charge/discharge cycles or should I
periodically power it on and periodically charge it?

Scott wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:20:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed
Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.

Can I ask a question that I hope it not too vague? I was given a
Kindle recently that I don't really need at present. Should I leave
it in the box so there are no charge/discharge cycles or should I
periodically power it on and periodically charge it?

There might be way more than just one model number of
Kindle, different battery chemistries, different
maintenance policies (as recommended by users in forums).

Try to give us an exact model number and description.

At some point, Kindle partnered with some mobile device
manufacturer, and just put their software on the thing.
Those are different than the purpose-built Kindles.

Paul

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 07:23:32 -0400, Paul wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:20:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed
Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.

Can I ask a question that I hope it not too vague? I was given a
Kindle recently that I don't really need at present. Should I leave
it in the box so there are no charge/discharge cycles or should I
periodically power it on and periodically charge it?

There might be way more than just one model number of
Kindle, different battery chemistries, different
maintenance policies (as recommended by users in forums).

Good point, though I assume all recent equipment will contain
litiium-ion batteries.

Try to give us an exact model number and description.

It's a kindle fire HDX - 32GB. No model number that I can find.

At some point, Kindle partnered with some mobile device
manufacturer, and just put their software on the thing.
Those are different than the purpose-built Kindles.

I don't expect too much transparency on that front.

Thanks

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 19:58:39 +0200, Maurice SAAB wrote:

Hello:
my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

Does the computer operate normally when plugged in? If no, then it's
probably your power supply rather than your battery.

I'm sorry, I don't know a way off hand to test for a dead battery.
But it seems unlikely to me - usually they just hold less and less of
a charge over time, but I've never known one to hold zero charge.

How exactly do you know that it's not charging?

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Shikata ga nai...

Scott wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 07:23:32 -0400, Paul wrote:

Scott wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:20:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed
Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.
Can I ask a question that I hope it not too vague? I was given a
Kindle recently that I don't really need at present. Should I leave
it in the box so there are no charge/discharge cycles or should I
periodically power it on and periodically charge it?
There might be way more than just one model number of
Kindle, different battery chemistries, different
maintenance policies (as recommended by users in forums).

Good point, though I assume all recent equipment will contain
litiium-ion batteries.
Try to give us an exact model number and description.

It's a kindle fire HDX - 32GB. No model number that I can find.
At some point, Kindle partnered with some mobile device
manufacturer, and just put their software on the thing.
Those are different than the purpose-built Kindles.

I don't expect too much transparency on that front.

Thanks

It's lithium, and doesn't appear to be removable.
There were no battery doors in the finished product pictures
I could find, and it's probably a battery pack that requires
taking the thing apart.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-bvotgh....1280.1280.jpg

I would check/charge it every three months, until
you get a handle on the discharge rate. If you find
that the battery retains a charge for a long time,
then you can reduce the charging frequency.

Even if the device has a "New In Box" cutoff for the
battery, to reduce battery leakage before the user
gets it, that can't last forever. You should take
it out of the box and use it before a year is up.
Because, if the battery gets to zero, it won't charge.

Devices like that, will be shipped with the battery
charged to 60-70%. They don't like to ship them
absolutely full, and that has to do with giving the
battery a long life. It's better to store them with
a reduced charge, than absolutely full. But on the other
hand, it gets them closer to zero in the long run.
And I think the launch of that product was some
time in 2013, so I'd probably open the box contents.
Or, sell it to someone who will actively use it,
as then they're stuck with the chore of keeping
it charged :-)

Paul

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 02:33:41 +0100, Paul wrote:

Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:14:44 -0000, Paul wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:
Hello:
my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

thank you


http://www.batteryuniversity.com/lea..._ion_batteries


Over-discharging Lithium-ion

Li-ion should never be discharged too low,
and there are several safeguards to prevent
this from happening.

The equipment cuts off when the battery discharges
to about 3.0V/cell, stopping the current flow. If
the discharge continues to about 2.70V/cell or lower,
the battery’s protection circuit puts the battery into
a sleep mode. This renders the pack unserviceable
and a recharge with most chargers is not possible. ---

So if the battery reads zero, the charger will refuse
to charge it. Apparently conductive whiskers can form
in the cell, if it is discharged too low.

Do not recharge lithium-ion if a cell has stayed
at or below 1.5V for more than a week. Copper shunts
may have formed inside the cells that can lead to a
partial or total electrical short. If recharged,
the cells might become unstable, causing excessive
heat or showing other anomalies. Li-ion packs that
have been under stress are more sensitive to mechanical
abuse, such as vibration, dropping and exposure to heat.

I removed whiskers in a NiCad pack by blasting it with 4 times the rated
voltage for several seconds. Not sure if Lithium likes that though.


I wouldn't try that on Lithium.

*******

I've recovered a couple NiCd cells that way,
and really it's a waste of time, because the
cell ends up with reduced capacity, and no
longer matches the discharge curve of the
other cells in the pack.

I only did it to resurrect an old laptop long enough to boot it up and get something off it. The stupid thing wouldn't start up with a power supply and no battery, I guess it relied on the battery to smooth the power of the ****ty power pack.

And to recover NiCd, you do it at the
cell level. Don't connect your "giant" power
source to the whole pack. It's to be applied
to an individual 1.2V cell. On packs covered
with shrink wrap plastic, you can cut back
the plastic to get at the welded contacts you
need access to. You need to check the cell
voltage on each cell, and only blow out the
whisker on the ones that read "0.0" volts.

It worked on the whole pack for me, why wouldn't it? The other cells will just drop their usual voltage.

--
Australia - 2030 ?????
HEADLINES FROM THE YEAR 2030
Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh largest country in the world, Little India, formerly known as Australia.
White minorities still trying to have English recognized as Australia's third language.
Children from 2 parent heterosexual families bullied in schools for being 'different'. Tolerance urged.
Melbourne schoolgirl expelled for not wearing Burqa: Being a Christian is no excuse says school. Sharia law must be enforced.
After a 10-year, $75.8 billion study: Scientists prove Diet and exercise is the key to weight loss.
Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter speed they now can photograph a woman with her mouth shut.
Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights. Victims to be held partly responsible for crime.
New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters, and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2035 as lethal weapons.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:36:29 +0100, John wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:07:45 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:20:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

Vague questions elicit vague responses. Without any details, my guess
is the battery is too old or has not been properly stored.

Can I ask a question that I hope it not too vague? I was given a
Kindle recently that I don't really need at present. Should I leave
it in the box so there are no charge/discharge cycles or should I
periodically power it on and periodically charge it?

I have a Kobo and a Cybook Opus I bought for the wife. When I leave
either unplugged for a couple of weeks they are utterly dead. They
will not boot even with the charger attached until I give them a few
hours of juice.
Once put on charge for some hours they do come back to life and then
fully charge up.
My 12-year-old Sony laptop's battery is still good for 5-6 hours of
heavy use even after me not using it for a year or more.

I have a camera that's like that. I can leave it for months and it
works just fine when I come to use it.

However: I also have a MacBook from Apple. Apple batteries are
*******s. Not only do they cost £100 to replace the pack but some
packs are no longer available from Apple. And their battery packs have
a finite number of charge-cycles and a really finite lifespan.
Ignoring that, I left my MB on standby while I went away for a couple
of days. It was not plugged in to the mains so the battery pack
totally drained. It will *NOT* recharge. Nothing will recharge it, not
even resetting the deep, deep system or downloading magic software.
That pack is completely and utterly *dead*.

My iPod battery lasted about eight years. I took the iPod to the
Apple shop, who said it was no longer supported. However, he added
that it was in very good condition and he was *not* saying the battery
could not be replaced, only that it was no longer 'supported'. I went
online and got a new battery (fitted) at a very reasonable price.

Short version: some batteries come to life after months in the box,
some do not. It depends on who makes them. There is no universal good
answer.

Batteries are a bit of a mystery. The electric shaver runs for ages
but the electric toothbrush needs charging every few days.

Maurice SAAB wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?

the laptop is Toshiba P205D-S8802, I bought the battery 3 months ago
from aliexpress, it's a LI-ion , china,
(http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6...64231777316781)
the adapter is the original toshiba one.
I tried removing the battery, uninstalling its drivers the re_installing
them, nothing changed.
My question: the battery (charged at 10%) not being charged when
computer shutted down, (its lamp is off), can be a windows issue?

If the computer is powered down then no software is running. Software
can't do anything unless running.

You have not said that you can use the computer (boot, load Windows, run
your programs) by using the A/C adapter to power the computer. Can you
use the computer when using A/C only (both with the battery in the
laptop and also with the battery removed)? If you cannot run the
computer using the A/C adapter (and not relying on the battery at all)
then the A/C adapter is probably broken. You could check its voltage
output but that probably means you'll have the computer end unplugged so
you would only be measuring the no-load voltage. Once connected and
there is a drain on the A/C adapter, its load voltage could drop which
means not enough voltage to charge the battery or to the computer. Can
you use your laptop for an extended time using the A/C adapter?

In the picture on the web page you gave, the models printed on the
battery do not include your model. The title hints that your laptop
might work with this battery but their "Model Number" list doesn't
include P200 (which presumably would include a P205 model). There is
logic inside the battery that works with the power circuitry in the
laptop.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Genui...250544016.html

That one actually lists your laptop brand and model. It is listed as a
6-cell battery but the link you gave says it is a 9-cell battery. The
one to which you linked says it's a 7800 mAH battery versus the one I
found there by searching on the make and model is only a 4000 mAH
battery. Although you might've thought you would have longer up-time
with more cells, the charger inside the laptop might not be able to
handle an increase of 3 cells of capacity. The charge circuit is
probably fixed to a max charge load and more cells would take longer to
charge but the charger might follow some charge curve and figure the
battery is too old when it takes too long to charge. Charging of
Lithium batteries must be controlled; else, they can heat up and catch
fire.

Unless someone of good repute, like Paul here, says it is okay to alter
the cell count of a laptop battery and the only consequence will be a
longer charge time, I suspect you mismatched the battery to the charger
inside the laptop. You went from 6 cells to 9.

Alas, even if turns out a larger cell count battery cannot be used, you
are long past their 30-day guarantee to return the 9-cell battery and
get a 6-cell one. How long is "battery is not charging"? That is, how
many hours are you waiting for the larger (perhaps oversized) capacity
battery to charge?

Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:


It worked on the whole pack for me, why wouldn't it? The other cells
will just drop their usual voltage.


You need access to the cell, to check whether it is
working. If the cell starts to develop a small voltage
(as seen on your voltmeter), then you know the whisker
is gone, and you can stop poking it with the arc welder :-)

And by applying the energy to just the bad
cell, then you know there won't be any side effects
on the good cells.

Paul

VanguardLH wrote:
Maurice SAAB wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:

my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed
Details required:
- Laptop's make and model.
- How old is the battery? It's chemical based so it's not eternal.
- Have you left the laptop in storage for months months, maybe
years, with no charging cycle during that time?
- What's the chemistry of the battery? NiCAD, Lithium (which type)?
the laptop is Toshiba P205D-S8802, I bought the battery 3 months ago
from aliexpress, it's a LI-ion , china,
(http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6...64231777316781)
the adapter is the original toshiba one.
I tried removing the battery, uninstalling its drivers the re_installing
them, nothing changed.
My question: the battery (charged at 10%) not being charged when
computer shutted down, (its lamp is off), can be a windows issue?

If the computer is powered down then no software is running. Software
can't do anything unless running.

You have not said that you can use the computer (boot, load Windows, run
your programs) by using the A/C adapter to power the computer. Can you
use the computer when using A/C only (both with the battery in the
laptop and also with the battery removed)? If you cannot run the
computer using the A/C adapter (and not relying on the battery at all)
then the A/C adapter is probably broken. You could check its voltage
output but that probably means you'll have the computer end unplugged so
you would only be measuring the no-load voltage. Once connected and
there is a drain on the A/C adapter, its load voltage could drop which
means not enough voltage to charge the battery or to the computer. Can
you use your laptop for an extended time using the A/C adapter?

In the picture on the web page you gave, the models printed on the
battery do not include your model. The title hints that your laptop
might work with this battery but their "Model Number" list doesn't
include P200 (which presumably would include a P205 model). There is
logic inside the battery that works with the power circuitry in the
laptop.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Genui...250544016.html

That one actually lists your laptop brand and model. It is listed as a
6-cell battery but the link you gave says it is a 9-cell battery. The
one to which you linked says it's a 7800 mAH battery versus the one I
found there by searching on the make and model is only a 4000 mAH
battery. Although you might've thought you would have longer up-time
with more cells, the charger inside the laptop might not be able to
handle an increase of 3 cells of capacity. The charge circuit is
probably fixed to a max charge load and more cells would take longer to
charge but the charger might follow some charge curve and figure the
battery is too old when it takes too long to charge. Charging of
Lithium batteries must be controlled; else, they can heat up and catch
fire.

Unless someone of good repute, like Paul here, says it is okay to alter
the cell count of a laptop battery and the only consequence will be a
longer charge time, I suspect you mismatched the battery to the charger
inside the laptop. You went from 6 cells to 9.

Alas, even if turns out a larger cell count battery cannot be used, you
are long past their 30-day guarantee to return the 9-cell battery and
get a 6-cell one. How long is "battery is not charging"? That is, how
many hours are you waiting for the larger (perhaps oversized) capacity
battery to charge?

I don't have any idea of the spectrum of battery/charger
designs involved here.

The battery pack has multiple terminals on it, implying
a path for communications (I2C, SPI, or whatever).

The charger chip and pack must be self sufficient, so that
if a laptop has a battery pack slapped into it, and
the adapter connected, the charger chip has to determine
what to do. You can't wait for a CPU to boot and program
it. It has to work right away. Because the user may be
attempting a charge cycle, with no CPU loading to heat
things up.

And you're right, that the adapter voltage typically
determines what is possible. I've not heard of any
laptops using a switching converter inside the laptop,
to make a high enough voltage to charge an out-of-range
pack. I think the connection is more direct, and
something connects a 19V source, to a 14.4V pack.
Like a pass transistor or a current source.
If you needed to charge a hypothetical 21V pack,
you'd need an elevated voltage source to do it.

And the extended battery packs don't seem to just
double the number of cells, so the extra cells
aren't sitting in parallel.

If the charger can read whatever identification chip
is in the battery pack, it can tell what kind of
pack is installed, and what termination voltage
would be appropriate.

Examples here, but it's pretty hard to tell what
a typical laptop is using. But the multiple contacts
on the battery, hints that smart charging might be
implemented. On a battery with eight contacts,
they could use 3 contacts for (+), 3 contacts for (-),
and save the other two for communications (one for
I2C, one for thermistor).

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._smart_battery

Paul

"Tough Guy no. 1265" wrote in message news

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:14:44 -0000, Paul wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:
Hello:
my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

thank you


http://www.batteryuniversity.com/lea..._ion_batteries

Over-discharging Lithium-ion

Li-ion should never be discharged too low,
and there are several safeguards to prevent
this from happening.

The equipment cuts off when the battery discharges
to about 3.0V/cell, stopping the current flow. If
the discharge continues to about 2.70V/cell or lower,
the battery’s protection circuit puts the battery into
a sleep mode. This renders the pack unserviceable
and a recharge with most chargers is not possible. ---

So if the battery reads zero, the charger will refuse
to charge it. Apparently conductive whiskers can form
in the cell, if it is discharged too low.

Do not recharge lithium-ion if a cell has stayed
at or below 1.5V for more than a week. Copper shunts
may have formed inside the cells that can lead to a
partial or total electrical short. If recharged,
the cells might become unstable, causing excessive
heat or showing other anomalies. Li-ion packs that
have been under stress are more sensitive to mechanical
abuse, such as vibration, dropping and exposure to heat.

I removed whiskers in a NiCad pack by blasting it with 4 times the rated
voltage for several seconds. Not sure if Lithium likes that though.

Hell, just zap it with the ignition coil off a 55 Chevy, around 30k volts
with low amperage!!!!!! No, I accept no responsibility for your possible
injuries for trying such a stupid thing.
--
Buffalo

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 20:04:11 +0100, Buffalo wrote:

"Tough Guy no. 1265" wrote in message news

On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 18:14:44 -0000, Paul wrote:

Maurice SAAB wrote:
Hello:
my laptop battery is not charging even when it's shutted down
does that means that the battery is dead?
I tried removing and re-inserting it, nothing changed

thank you


http://www.batteryuniversity.com/lea..._ion_batteries

Over-discharging Lithium-ion

Li-ion should never be discharged too low,
and there are several safeguards to prevent
this from happening.

The equipment cuts off when the battery discharges
to about 3.0V/cell, stopping the current flow. If
the discharge continues to about 2.70V/cell or lower,
the battery’s protection circuit puts the battery into
a sleep mode. This renders the pack unserviceable
and a recharge with most chargers is not possible. ---

So if the battery reads zero, the charger will refuse
to charge it. Apparently conductive whiskers can form
in the cell, if it is discharged too low.

Do not recharge lithium-ion if a cell has stayed
at or below 1.5V for more than a week. Copper shunts
may have formed inside the cells that can lead to a
partial or total electrical short. If recharged,
the cells might become unstable, causing excessive
heat or showing other anomalies. Li-ion packs that
have been under stress are more sensitive to mechanical
abuse, such as vibration, dropping and exposure to heat.

I removed whiskers in a NiCad pack by blasting it with 4 times the rated
voltage for several seconds. Not sure if Lithium likes that though.

Hell, just zap it with the ignition coil off a 55 Chevy, around 30k volts
with low amperage!!!!!! No, I accept no responsibility for your possible
injuries for trying such a stupid thing.

It's a known method of removing whiskers.

--
A weekend wasted is not a wasted weekend.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:38:10 +0100, Paul wrote:

Tough Guy no. 1265 wrote:


It worked on the whole pack for me, why wouldn't it? The other cells
will just drop their usual voltage.


You need access to the cell, to check whether it is
working. If the cell starts to develop a small voltage
(as seen on your voltmeter), then you know the whisker
is gone, and you can stop poking it with the arc welder :-)

And by applying the energy to just the bad
cell, then you know there won't be any side effects
on the good cells.

The good cells just get charged. It's quite easy, I just connected the 15V (or whatever it was) pack to a 30V PSU for 5 seconds. Then tried to charge the battery in the laptop as normal. When it refused, I used a 40V PSU for 10 seconds, or something like that.

--
A weekend wasted is not a wasted weekend.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:10:50 +0100, Scott wrote:

Batteries are a bit of a mystery. The electric shaver runs for ages
but the electric toothbrush needs charging every few days.

Just for fun: I got my two electric shavers out to let a cut that didn't
like safety razors heal.

The Panasonic was dead and the Norelco (Philips) worked fine. There was
no significant difference between the dates of last charge, just a
difference in retention.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)