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Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 29th 20, 04:09 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:00:57 +0000, scbs29 wrote:

Hello all.
I am a new user of Windows 10 Pro, ie. 3 days. I wish to install a
program, ON1 Photo 10 to the D: drive to save space on my SSD C:
drive. Following information I found in
https://xxx.wikihow.com/Change-the-D...-on-Windows-10

I opened Settings - System - Storage - Change where new content is
saved and changed New apps will save to: from C: to D:.
I then started to install ON1 Photo 10 and discovered that the program
was still installed to the C: drive.

When I used WIndows 7 Pro I could change a registry entry to change
the installation drive. If there is an insurmountable reason why the
Settings option does not work for a program as opposed to an App (What
is the difference ?), perhaps there is a corresponding registry change
for Windows 10.

Can anyone help ?
TIA


On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:21:43 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

"Change where new apps will save TO" means, I suspect, where those apps
will save files _they produce_, not where the apps themselves will
install themselves. If, say, the app. is a picture editor, it means
where it will store pictures, not where it will install itself.

I may be wrong about that.

Unless your SSD is tiny, I'd let prog.s (app.s - I don't know what the
difference is either; I don't think there is one) install on C:, just
make sure they store what they work on on D:.


For decades, I have been installing programs "where they belong".
o In the olden days (Win95?) I used PC Mag Ziff Davis COA & COA32

But "Change of Address" was deprecated & apparently removed from the net:
o http://f2.org/software/win32/free/admin.html (search for coa32.zip)

All well-written programs allow you to _set_ a "custom" install location
o And you can move "most" of those which are written by outfits which don't

Only a handful of poorly written apps don't allow a custom install location
o Where "most" of those can be moved to where they belong (if you're smart)

For example:
o What's the best way to MOVE an app to where it belongs, after it has already been installed?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/hqKijRgHOC0

I'm a big proponent of organizing programs by what "function" they perform:
o Where I install _hundreds_ of apps (on Windows, Android, & iOS) by their function

For example, on Android, we do the same things we do on all computers:
o https://i.postimg.cc/y6p53m46/homescreen01.jpg

Likewise on iOS (although available functionality is always less with Apple):
o https://i.postimg.cc/LXzB3Lc0/appleid01.jpg

As on Windows:
o https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg

Where _all_ programs generally fit into fewer than a dozen logical functions.
o For example, we "browse"; we "edit", we "telecommunicate", etc.

This organizes a PC such that the hierarchy is the same for all PCs, e.g.,
o {X}:\installers\editors\pic\irvanview\
o {X}:\apps\editors\pic\irfanview\
o {X}:\menu\editors\pic\irfanview.lnk
o Taskbar menu editors pic irfanview
NOTE: I don't use plurals for consistency; but include them here for simplicity.
o https://i.postimg.cc/qvJDMQcq/taskbarmenu02.jpg

As per a philosophy on organizing a PC in a manner that makes sense to you:
o Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/i9Cz3POZFCo

Nothing is ever purposefully stored in {Program Files,Program Files (x86}}
o The only crap in those folders is from poorly written ****ty programs (IMHO)

Once you hone your functional hierarchy, it rarely changes over the years
o Such that a Win95 or WinXP cascade menu often works even when copied to Win10

In fact, I proved a WinXP cascade menu works when directly copied to Win10:
o Why does anyone bother to install Classic Shell on Windows if all they want is the WinXP accordion-style sliding cascade Start Menu?
https://groups.google.com/g/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/c/dTHKXIdlqcw

Had Microsoft hired me to solve their GUI, organization would be the norm (IMHO)
o https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to help others as they help me.
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  #2  
Old December 29th 20, 07:35 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:33:16 -0600, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

Apps from Microsoft store don't give you an option,
they always install on C:\.


1. I never use Microsoft Store apps, but I don't doubt they're badly
written such that they probably do not even ask where they belong.

2. I've been installing apps "where they belong" (as defined by me)
for decades, ever since at least the Win95 & WinXP days.

3. All well written apps (IMHO) have a "custom" selection so that users
can install the apps where users feel those app installs belong.

4. Only poorly written apps (IMHO) do not have a "custom" option to
install them where they belong.

5. Over the years, I've found that "most" of the poorly written apps
seem to be from "big outfits" such as Google, Adobe, Microsoft, etc.

6. It's just insane, IMHO, to install apps willy nilly into wherever
hundreds of different developers feel like putting them, particularly
since _many_ outfits add all sorts of extraneous "advertisements"
to their filespec (in addition to spaces, and even capital letters,
which, sometimes even today, do make a PITA escaping & typing and
file completion difference if you ever tried messing with scripts
particularly with the Windows registry).

7. The beauty of installing apps where they belong is that you can
find them without a search, and, you can more easily find rogue
apps (which won't be in your installation hierarchy) and your
installation hierarchy and Taskbar menus stay pristine as nothing
pollutes them, so they remain pure for your needs.

8. For example, if you want to run your favorite photo editor,
all the paths on all machines over decades remains the same:
o https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg

For example...
Installer archive (this is the primary program backup):
o {X}:\installers\editors\pic\irvanview\

Installed location (this is installed on each machine):
o {X}:\apps\editors\pic\irfanview\

Menu location (this is archived & copied to all machines):
o {X}:\menus\editors\pic\irfanview.lnk
o Taskbar menus editors pic irfanview

Note: I don't use plurals; but I add them here for readability.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to impart knowledge to others.
  #3  
Old December 29th 20, 07:40 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:22:31 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

The installation drive is not the problem. You can
tell the installer to install to D drive.


As is almost always, if not always the case, Mayayana is consistent:
1. He actually knows microsoft installers far better than do most of us
2. But he's still often wrong because he's rather intuitive & less so empirical

The empirical fact is that with "some" installers, they don't have options
to put your installed files in a "custom" location of the users' choice.

Infamous for that restriction, for example, are many Google products (e.g.,
Chrome, and many of its variants, e.g., Epic & Brave).

As Renee already noted, many Microsoft products also don't provide an
option to install where they belong; but _most_ application installers are
(IMHO) well written in that they allow a "custom" install location choice.

But many programs
will then use your personal folder to save files, without
asking you.


Mayayana is correct in stating that the "data files" are often stored in a
hard-coded location set by poorly written programs.

As all of us know, "some" programs have settings for where you'd like to
store your data, while others have no such option in their menu system.

And "most" (it seems) allow you to install the program "where it belongs"
o As always "where it belongs" is defined by you!

Program settings will be in the Registry or
your App Data folder. That's all on C drive. In most
cases there's no choice. Unless you run as admin or
change folder permissions, software is unable to write
to other locations, such as the program folder.


This is correct, IMHO.

So it's really not a good idea to do it that way.


I disagree with the overall solution assessment by Mayayana.
o For decades, I've been successful controlling "most" programs.

1. I install the program "where it belongs"
2. I archive & set Taskbar pullout menus to the same consistent hierarchy
3. I "try" to get the programs to store data "where it belongs"

As always, the user defines the value of "where it belongs"
o But, for me, data belongs in "{X}:\data\{my hierarchy}\"

Notice that backup & reuse is trivial as it's simply a "copy"
a. The data hierarchy is the most important to back up
b. The menu hierarchy is (in my case) inside the data hierarchy
c. Nothing else, in practice, needs to be backed up (in most cases)

When you re-install on another machine, it's 3 simple steps:
A. You install all programs from your installation hierarchy
B. You install them into the same consistent "apps" hierarchy
C. You _copy_ the menu over which then works right out of the box!

This philosophy is described in further detail over he
o Tutorial for KISS setup of Windows programs for easy use & re-install
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/i9Cz3POZFCo

Better to buy a bigger SSD and clone to it.


I disagree that "cloning" is a good solution.
o IMHO, a good solution is to organize for re-use (as shown above).

It might also be possible to move your documents folder to D.
I'm not sure. I've never used that folder.


I don't think it matters _which_ drive the data is stored on.
o But I generally install data on the "C" drive so I'd have to test it

Example: If you install Firefox it will write a lot of
stuff to 2 different App Data folders. It's a design
meant for security and multiple users, but the down
side is that only experts can back up their Firefox
settings, and if you have to reinstall at some point,
the Firefox program on D drive will lose all of its
configuration files.


Mayayana knows browser set up better than almost all of us.
o He also knows browser privacy & security better than most.

Certainly Mayayana knows browser features far better than I do.
o However, what I do with browsers is _simple_ and _elegant_

Each browser is carefully set up for one task and one task only:
o https://i.postimg.cc/hjjVXkq5/taskbarmenu07.jpg

As per this philosophy on how to maintain privacy with web browsing:
o Discussion of easy-to-implement privacy-related browser philosophies
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/H4694--5znY

First, in my browser installation archive, I save all the offline
full non-stub installers for each of a score of free browsers as per:
o Clickable list of full offline installers to all free browsers
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/krNaXA-YEbw

Where I keep each full offline installer "where it belongs"
o {X}:\installers\browsers\{name of browser}\

Note: I never use plurals; but I insert plurals here for readability.

Second, I install each browser "where it belongs" (like any other app)
o {X}:\apps\browsers\{name of browser}\

Third, the menu is copied from the archive, re-used for years on end:
o {X}:\menu\browsers\{name of browser}\

Fourth, each browser is set up for one specific task only.
o This is where the "security" of the browser is taken into account.

So the ideal is to keep software on C, keep data
on other drives, and back up both. Then if you
have trouble you haven't lost contracts, photos, etc.
And if you used disk image backup then you can
also get your software/settings back easily.


In my case, the ideal is to keep software in an off-disk archive
o Such that re-installation of software is always a trivial event

The ideal is to keep menus in a consistent archive
o Such that re-installation of menus is a trivial copy event

The ideal is to then set up the software as the user sees fit
o Which is mainly how my "ideal" differs from Mayayana's ideal

In Mayayana's suggestion, the "disk image backup" saves your setup
o In my case, I keep a syslog file of the setup for each program

See the off-disk "Win+R syslog" command implemented in this tutorial:
o Tutorial to implement a syslog command to maintain a USB stick system log
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/HkfHsx6chBk

The advantage of my "ideal" is that nothing ever pollutes your folders
o And, backup/re-installation is both consistent & virtually trivial

Plus, a re-installation is "cleaner" using my methods
o Because nothing is cloned, particularly not the registry or installation
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to help others as they help me.
  #4  
Old December 29th 20, 07:40 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:57:19 -0600, Rene Lamontagne wrote:

Even though I have been using my method for decades with all programs on
D, Now as Mayayana says, with the availability of large SSDs and NVMe
drives at a reasonable price it is now feasible and practical to install
all programs on C:\.


I agree with Rene that, nowadays, I don't know of any good reason to put
the program installation and/or program data on a separate partition.

Do you?

The key suggestions I would made, from a strategic standpoint are...

1. Save your full offline installers in a consistent hierarchy, such as:
o X:\software\archivers
o X:\software\browsers
o X:\software\cleaners
o X:\software\databases
o X:\software\editors
o X:\software\finance
o X:\software\games
o X:\software\hardware
o X:\software\network
o X:\software\os
o X:\software\telecom
etc.
NOTE: I don't use plurals; but I added them here for readability.

2. Install each program into the same consistent hierarchy, such as:
o C:\apps\archivers
o C:\apps\browsers
o C:\apps\cleaners
o C:\apps\databases
o C:\apps\editors
o C:\apps\finance
o C:\apps\games
o C:\apps\hardware
o C:\apps\network
o C:\apps\os
o C:\apps\telecom
etc.
NOTE: I don't use plurals; but I added them here for readability.

3. Maintain a copy of your menu of the same consistent hierarchy, such as:
o C:\data\menus\archivers
o C:\data\menus\browsers
o C:\data\menus\cleaners
o C:\data\menus\databases
o C:\data\menus\editors
o C:\data\menus\finance
o C:\data\menus\games
o C:\data\menus\hardware
o C:\data\menus\network
o C:\data\menus\os
o C:\data\menus\telecom
etc.
NOTE: The same menu can be copied from WinXP to Win7 to Win10, etc.

4. Pin that menu folder to the Taskbar for a cascade accordion style menu:
o Taskbar menus archivers
o Taskbar menus browsers
o Taskbar menus cleaners
o Taskbar menus databases
o Taskbar menus editors
o Taskbar menus finance
o Taskbar menus games
o Taskbar menus hardware
o Taskbar menus network
o Taskbar menus os
o Taskbar menus telecom
etc.
NOTE: If desired, duplication is easily incorporated into menus.

5. Set up each program to store its program data "where it belongs"
NOTE: In my case, I keep _nothing_ in Windows standard folders
o That's simply because they're utterly polluted by wayward programs.

So, for me, that's C:\data\{whatever hierarchy I want}
o Usually that hierarchy is a "data type" style, but not always:

Note that "data" is archived by file type moreso than by file content:
C:\data\appsettings
C:\data\menus
C:\data\videos
etc.

In summary, if you organize Windows such that you archive the installers
into a consistent hierarchy, and then you install apps into that same
consistent hierarchy, and if you then copy over your menus of the same
consistent hierarchy, then re-use on other machines is nearly trivial.

If you maintain an USB-stick (off disk) syslog (so that it's protected
from disk failures and so that it's portable across machines), then you
can easily reproduce your setup for each installed program (if desired).

IMHO, this is a far better solution to the problem of recovery from disk
failure and re-use of software on another system, than "cloning" would be.

As always, please improve so that all benefit from your experience.
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart, as always, to voluntarily help all.
  #5  
Old December 31st 20, 07:59 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

End of year survey for how much storage you typically use
for your Windows installed program files & program data

Happy New Year!

Here's my quick survey of space used (none of which needs backing up)
o https://i.postimg.cc/1z1YYcD5/app01.jpg ~28 GB installed apps
o https://i.postimg.cc/kMHspvm3/app02.jpg ~1 GB Program Data
o https://i.postimg.cc/L5S1c5NP/app03.jpg ~2 GB Program Files
o https://i.postimg.cc/tCHKcbyH/app04.jpg ~18 GB Windows files
o https://i.postimg.cc/rFVkmTHN/app05.jpg ~500 GB personal data

Note that I don't willingly store _anything_ in default Microsoft folders
o Which is something I learned in the Win95/WinXP days works rather well

Hence, _anything_ in any default Windows folder can be trashed
o When a new system is set up from scratch

Given I store everything that matters into C:\data, there's nothing
anywhere else on my Windows systems which needs to be backed up at the
annual EOY backup archive.

To be clear, I use a philosophy which, by design, enables this efficiency

For example:
1. All program installers are backed up at the moment they are downloaded
2. Such that they are easily re-installed on the new machine when needed
3. And where a USB-based syslog file is kept of each apps' setting changes

Given the menus and the syslogs and the installers are all maintained at
the time the program is first installed, there's nothing to back up other
than your own personal data (which I keep in, not surprisingly, C:\data).
o https://i.postimg.cc/rFVkmTHN/app05.jpg ~500 GB personal data

Specifically:
a. Syslogs are maintained on an external USB stick (for use with many PCs)
b. Data is the only folder that matters (it's all you need to archive)
c. Installers are saved at the time of download to external storage

All hierarchies on all machines match for complete consistency:
o https://i.postimg.cc/yY74z87s/taskbarmenu06.jpg

In summary, once a year (or so), you copy your "c:\data" & you're done
o Nothing else matters on a typical Windows system if you planned ahead

See also:
o End of year survey for how much storage you typically use for your Windows program files & program data
https://groups.google.com/g/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/c/zRPaZw0Og8o

o Tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosophy
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/i9Cz3POZFCo
--
Posted out of the goodness of my heart to help others & to learn from them.
  #6  
Old December 31st 20, 08:47 PM posted to alt.comp.freeware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Philosophy on a tutorial for setting up Windows in a well organized KISS philosopy such that search is never needed & reinstall is trivial

Update:

Part of a well-organized setup is the philosophy of system restore points.

I know some people abhor them, but I find them useful when a system is
destroyed while testing freeware, where system restore points "can" help to
recover from that destruction caused during the freeware testing process.

To that end, for the record, here's what I just sent while making an End of
Year restore point for each of my installed hard disk drives today...

On 30 Dec 2020 16:20:26 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

If the Restore Points are included in the SVI, then nearly all is
Restore Points, because the 'Current Usage:' of the Restore Points is
12.35 GB (according to the System Protection tab of the System
Properties control panel applet).


Hi Frank,

By way of providing another helpful datapoint, my RPs are about 16GB:
o Win+R systempropertiesprotection [Configure]

Unlike the trolls on Usenet, I don't bull**** (I prove what I claim):
o https://i.postimg.cc/FKkC2YjZ/app06.jpg ~16 GB restore point

In my case, that's only five restore points, which is odd, as I don't
remember deleting any, where I've noticed that whatever is labeled as:
o Windows Module Installer
is, perhaps, deleting all prior restore points (it may be one of my
cleaner programs, e.g., Revo, AdvancedUninstall, iOBit, ZSoft, etc.).
o Win+R systempropertiesprotection [System Restore] [Next]
o [x]Show more restore points

Whatever "Windows Modules Installer" is I don't know though...
o https://i.postimg.cc/hhFVQGJS/app07.jpg Something deleted my RPs!

In summary, I'm glad you brought up this system restore point space
o As I just noticed "something" is auto-deleting my many restore points!
--
Posted to learn from others and to disseminate knowledge to all who care.
 




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