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#1
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Drive later change - why?
I use Windows 7 64 home premium on PC and laptop. I back up using Cobian
to an external drive set as G:.. The other day it began to fail, not being able to create the directory. It took me a couple of days to realise.. The drive had been allocated to H:. There is no drive G:. Lately I have been piddling around trying unsuccessfully to create a homegroup (well it creates one but my PC can not access the laptop). Of course there is also the standard Windows network via which I can access either the PC or laptop from either by logging in so the homegroup thing does not matter. I use Truecrypt and always use drive X: for that. The only other thing I use which affects drive letters is Daemon tools which I have not run for a while. I am sure that nobody else has altered the drive letters. I know Truecrypt is defunct but I have not yet got a replacement. So why did drive G: get changed to H:? |
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#2
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Drive later change - why?
On 04/04/2015 00:59:09, Johnbee wrote:
I use Windows 7 64 home premium on PC and laptop. I back up using Cobian to an external drive set as G:.. The other day it began to fail, not being able to create the directory. It took me a couple of days to realise.. The drive had been allocated to H:. There is no drive G:. Lately I have been piddling around trying unsuccessfully to create a homegroup (well it creates one but my PC can not access the laptop). Of course there is also the standard Windows network via which I can access either the PC or laptop from either by logging in so the homegroup thing does not matter. I use Truecrypt and always use drive X: for that. The only other thing I use which affects drive letters is Daemon tools which I have not run for a while. I am sure that nobody else has altered the drive letters. I know Truecrypt is defunct but I have not yet got a replacement. So why did drive G: get changed to H:? I have had that happen after I have plugged in a usb card reader. Main installed computer drives are C, D, E and F. I (did)backup to an external drive J using a usb slot. My last hard drive on the PC is F. Unplug the external drive and plug in the card reader then when viewed in explorer it creates or shows drives G,H,I and J for the different card formats. Consequently, when I unplug the card reader, then next plug in the external drive the drive letter has changed from J to K. I have now set the external drive letter to P to give me more room to manoeuvre. -- mick |
#3
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Drive later change - why?
Johnbee wrote:
I use Windows 7 64 home premium on PC and laptop. I back up using Cobian to an external drive set as G:.. The other day it began to fail, not being able to create the directory. It took me a couple of days to realise.. The drive had been allocated to H:. There is no drive G:. Lately I have been piddling around trying unsuccessfully to create a homegroup (well it creates one but my PC can not access the laptop). Of course there is also the standard Windows network via which I can access either the PC or laptop from either by logging in so the homegroup thing does not matter. I use Truecrypt and always use drive X: for that. The only other thing I use which affects drive letters is Daemon tools which I have not run for a while. I am sure that nobody else has altered the drive letters. I know Truecrypt is defunct but I have not yet got a replacement. So why did drive G: get changed to H:? When you plugged in the USB drive, was G: already assigned? After you plugged in the USB drive and saw it was assigned H:, did you see a drive assigned to G:? USB assignment goes by the next available drive letter; i.e., which one next would be available. A: and B: are fixed to floppy drives (even if you don't have any). C: is typically for the partition on the hard disk wherein Windows resides. That you expect a USB to be assigned G: when plugged in means you have other drives before it. D:, E:, and F:, must already be assigned, like to other partititons on the same or different HDDs or SSDs, to optical drives, or other USB drives you leave plugged in. G: would get used if it was the next available drive letter. If you left a USB drive or somehow already had G: assigned then it couldn't be used when you plugged in your USB drive. So the next obvious choice is to try the next letter (H. Some users try to assign a drive letter using Disk Management (diskmgmt.msc). That isn't a permanent solution. Something else plugged in and assigned G: would mean you don't get G: when you later plug in your USB drive. You never mentioned using 3rd party software that better manages drive letter assignment for USB drives (and blocks the use of those same drive letters when other devices try to use them). So I have to figure you are just using what Windows gives you. Assignment is in sequential order and you cannot use the same drive letter for multiple devices. So plugging in a USB device means it normally gets the next available drive letter. G: was in use so your USB drive, when plugged in, had to use the next available one which was H:. There really isn't enough firmware signature difference between same-vendor USB drives to ensure using Disk Management will retain the same drive letter for every time you plug in a USB drive. You need something MORE than what you get in Windows if you want decent drive letter management. In fact, what you want is to *reserve* drive letters for specific devices. There are some tools to do reservation and management of USB drive letter assignment. The only one that I recall is USBDLM (USB drive letter manager). That one is free but requires you edit an .ini file to configure it. http://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbdlm_e.html As I mentioned, if you have a bunch of same-vendor USB drives (flash or HDD), they have little variance in their firmware sigs to differentiate between them. Something must be available that makes one look different than another so a drive letter manager can figure out when not to dole out a drive letter and when it should. HDDs (in USB enclosures) can have different drive IDs in their boot record (MBR or UEFI) to differentiate between them; however, the USB-to-IDE/SATA circuitry sits between the physical drive and the OS so I don't know that drive IDs on USB-attached drives is usable. So make sure you use a different volume ID (aka volume label) on each of your USB-attached drives (whether flash, HDD, or SSD) to help differentiate between them. USBDLM can use the volume ID to determine which drive letter is reserved for a particular USB-attached drive. What this means is that you need MORE than what Microsoft gave you in Windows to ensure the same drive letter gets reserved and assigned to a particular external drive. There may be other similar utilities to USBDLM. |
#4
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Drive later change - why?
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#5
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Drive later change - why?
pjp wrote:
johnbee says... I back up using Cobian to an external drive set as G:.. The drive had been allocated to H:. There is no drive G:. So why did drive G: get changed to H:? I've never encountered this problem once I've assigned a specific drive letter to my various externals. I used "O" to "U" each assigned to a specific external drive I use. First time a new thumbdrive hits system I assign it "K" which is never an issue because I never have more than one plugged in at any one time. How do you assign a drive letter to a USB-attached device? By using Device Manager (devmgmt.msc)? That works as long as the software or device assignment doesn't step on that drive letter assignment. Using Devmgmt is more like reserving a drive letter than fixing it to a device. Then there is still the problem of identifying the device to match up the drive letter. If the firmware signature or the presentation data offered by the USB device isn't unique enough to identify it then Windows won't know that you put the same device in the same slot. If you move to a different slot, reserved drive assignment is even more tenuous. Microsoft has done a poor job in helping users manage drive letter assignment to removable devices. I seldom "mount" a networked drive and give it a drive letter. Usually a shortcut is all that's required. If I wanted to, I could have enough devices etc. attached that I'd use up all drive letters Some [newer] software will let you use a UNC path to the networked resource. Alas, some old software still demands the use of a drive letter so you're stuck having to mount the drive with a letter for it. UNC pathing has been around so long that it's a shame that software doesn't use it. No having to mount, no slowdown on Windows boot to mount (map) the drives, no slowdown in Windows Explorer having to refresh itself as changes are made to the mapped drive. Maybe UNC pathing is too *NIX like for Windows software authors to embrace that method of referencing a resource. UNC was available back in Windows NT4, maybe earlier. 20 years later and software mostly lacks UNC support. |
#6
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Drive later change - why?
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#8
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Drive later change - why?
R. C. White wrote:
Hi, pjp and VanguardLH. You mean DISK Management (diskmgmt.msc), not DEVICE Management (devmgmt.msc). Windows by default assigns the next available letter to a newly-installed device. But, if you use Disk Management to specifically assign a letter to that new device, then Disk Management will use that assigned letter each time that device is re-connected. if possible. But if that letter has been assigned to a different device in the meantime, then Disk Management will revert to its default behavior. The terminology can get confusing: A "DRIVE" letter actually refers to a partition on a disk, rather than to the disk itself. So, for example, Drives C:, D:, X: and Y: can all reside on Disk 0. (Disks are assigned numbers, starting with zero, by the BIOS before Windows even loads.) And "drive" letters are also assigned to many other kinds of devices, such as USB flash drives, optical discs (CD/DVD), SD cards for cameras, network drives, etc. Most of these devices can be partitioned into multiple "drives", too, but usually are not. RC What does Disk Mgmt (thanks for the correction) do to recognize the SAME device got plugged in? There needs to be a sig on the device to identify it; however, I would think the firmware sig would be the same across the same model for the same brand. Do USB flash drives all have a different firmware sig? HDDs have a disk ID (in the MBR and, I assume, also in GPT) that can identify them but I don't know it is accessible through the USB interface (SATA to USB). When plugging in USB devices, their presentation data gets used in creating an enumeration entry for that device. You can find it under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SB HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR That's why, for example, when having problem with recognition of a USB device that you can delete its enumeration data in the registry to force re-recognition of that device rather than rely on the old enum data. I believe the USBSTOR key is where USB-attached drive types are registered. If you plugged in a USB drive and removed it, its enum data remains in the registry. For example, there is still a "PNY" entry under there although my old USB PNY flash drive got tossed awhile back (it went bad). Under there will be a registry subkey with a HardwareID data item with the device ID(s) for a device that you plugged in; however, I don't have multiples of the same device (same brand and model and version) to see how that hardware ID is different for each separate instance of the same product. Do you have multiple USB flash drives that are the same brand and model so you can see if they have the same or different hardware IDs? You don't have to use the registry to see this enumeration data. Run Disk Management and look at the properties of the USB drive when it is plugged in and after recognized. Under the properties for the USB drive, go to the Details tab. Select "Hardware ID" from the drop-down list of enumeration values. Enumeration data is the only means that I know of that the OS could identify what type is the USB device and provide some kind of signature of the device. |
#9
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Drive later change - why?
VanguardLH wrote:
R. C. White wrote: Hi, pjp and VanguardLH. You mean DISK Management (diskmgmt.msc), not DEVICE Management (devmgmt.msc). Windows by default assigns the next available letter to a newly-installed device. But, if you use Disk Management to specifically assign a letter to that new device, then Disk Management will use that assigned letter each time that device is re-connected. if possible. But if that letter has been assigned to a different device in the meantime, then Disk Management will revert to its default behavior. The terminology can get confusing: A "DRIVE" letter actually refers to a partition on a disk, rather than to the disk itself. So, for example, Drives C:, D:, X: and Y: can all reside on Disk 0. (Disks are assigned numbers, starting with zero, by the BIOS before Windows even loads.) And "drive" letters are also assigned to many other kinds of devices, such as USB flash drives, optical discs (CD/DVD), SD cards for cameras, network drives, etc. Most of these devices can be partitioned into multiple "drives", too, but usually are not. RC What does Disk Mgmt (thanks for the correction) do to recognize the SAME device got plugged in? There needs to be a sig on the device to identify it; however, I would think the firmware sig would be the same across the same model for the same brand. Do USB flash drives all have a different firmware sig? HDDs have a disk ID (in the MBR and, I assume, also in GPT) that can identify them but I don't know it is accessible through the USB interface (SATA to USB). When plugging in USB devices, their presentation data gets used in creating an enumeration entry for that device. You can find it under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SB HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR That's why, for example, when having problem with recognition of a USB device that you can delete its enumeration data in the registry to force re-recognition of that device rather than rely on the old enum data. I believe the USBSTOR key is where USB-attached drive types are registered. If you plugged in a USB drive and removed it, its enum data remains in the registry. For example, there is still a "PNY" entry under there although my old USB PNY flash drive got tossed awhile back (it went bad). Under there will be a registry subkey with a HardwareID data item with the device ID(s) for a device that you plugged in; however, I don't have multiples of the same device (same brand and model and version) to see how that hardware ID is different for each separate instance of the same product. Do you have multiple USB flash drives that are the same brand and model so you can see if they have the same or different hardware IDs? You don't have to use the registry to see this enumeration data. Run Disk Management and look at the properties of the USB drive when it is plugged in and after recognized. Under the properties for the USB drive, go to the Details tab. Select "Hardware ID" from the drop-down list of enumeration values. Enumeration data is the only means that I know of that the OS could identify what type is the USB device and provide some kind of signature of the device. USB devices have a serial number ("iSerialNumber"). In this example, two identical Lexar Jumpdrive USB keys, show their serial number. No matter what port this is plugged into, the serial number tells the system which device it is, and not to create a fresh entry when it is plugged in. The old entry can be used from the Registry. http://i59.tinypic.com/10z7gx5.gif What you're seeing there, is an example of the ideal case. Not all USB hardware is serialized. Paul |
#10
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Drive later change - why?
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 23:06:29 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote: The terminology can get confusing: A "DRIVE" letter actually refers to a partition on a disk, rather than to the disk itself. So, for example, Drives C:, D:, X: and Y: can all reside on Disk 0. Yes, and to add to that, many people don't realize that even if a disk has nothing on it but a single drive letter, C:, that C: is a partition. Many people mistakenly think that to partition a disk is to divide it into two or more partitions. But in fact it's to create one or more partitions on it. |
#11
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Drive later change - why?
Paul wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: R. C. White wrote: Hi, pjp and VanguardLH. You mean DISK Management (diskmgmt.msc), not DEVICE Management (devmgmt.msc). Windows by default assigns the next available letter to a newly-installed device. But, if you use Disk Management to specifically assign a letter to that new device, then Disk Management will use that assigned letter each time that device is re-connected. if possible. But if that letter has been assigned to a different device in the meantime, then Disk Management will revert to its default behavior. The terminology can get confusing: A "DRIVE" letter actually refers to a partition on a disk, rather than to the disk itself. So, for example, Drives C:, D:, X: and Y: can all reside on Disk 0. (Disks are assigned numbers, starting with zero, by the BIOS before Windows even loads.) And "drive" letters are also assigned to many other kinds of devices, such as USB flash drives, optical discs (CD/DVD), SD cards for cameras, network drives, etc. Most of these devices can be partitioned into multiple "drives", too, but usually are not. RC What does Disk Mgmt (thanks for the correction) do to recognize the SAME device got plugged in? There needs to be a sig on the device to identify it; however, I would think the firmware sig would be the same across the same model for the same brand. Do USB flash drives all have a different firmware sig? HDDs have a disk ID (in the MBR and, I assume, also in GPT) that can identify them but I don't know it is accessible through the USB interface (SATA to USB). When plugging in USB devices, their presentation data gets used in creating an enumeration entry for that device. You can find it under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SB HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR That's why, for example, when having problem with recognition of a USB device that you can delete its enumeration data in the registry to force re-recognition of that device rather than rely on the old enum data. I believe the USBSTOR key is where USB-attached drive types are registered. If you plugged in a USB drive and removed it, its enum data remains in the registry. For example, there is still a "PNY" entry under there although my old USB PNY flash drive got tossed awhile back (it went bad). Under there will be a registry subkey with a HardwareID data item with the device ID(s) for a device that you plugged in; however, I don't have multiples of the same device (same brand and model and version) to see how that hardware ID is different for each separate instance of the same product. Do you have multiple USB flash drives that are the same brand and model so you can see if they have the same or different hardware IDs? You don't have to use the registry to see this enumeration data. Run Disk Management and look at the properties of the USB drive when it is plugged in and after recognized. Under the properties for the USB drive, go to the Details tab. Select "Hardware ID" from the drop-down list of enumeration values. Enumeration data is the only means that I know of that the OS could identify what type is the USB device and provide some kind of signature of the device. USB devices have a serial number ("iSerialNumber"). In this example, two identical Lexar Jumpdrive USB keys, show their serial number. No matter what port this is plugged into, the serial number tells the system which device it is, and not to create a fresh entry when it is plugged in. The old entry can be used from the Registry. http://i59.tinypic.com/10z7gx5.gif What you're seeing there, is an example of the ideal case. That would work if Windows used that info. I found the following: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/usbcoreblog/...-a-device.aspx Looks like there is a "serial number string descriptor query" that gets the serial number. Presumably the iSerialNumber field shown in the USB utility is the serial number for the device that Windows will see. When I used Device Mgmt (safer then using regedit to look at enumeration data) and the properties of a drive under the Detail tab, I could see hardware IDs that looked like: ST3750528AS_____________________________CC44____ (for a Seagate HDD) WDC_WD10EZEX-00RKKA0____________________80.00A80 (for a Western Digital HDD) Alas, I do not have another same-vendor and same-model HDD to compare how their hwids would differ. Had to go back into the registry to look at the enumeration data. According to: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx the USB driver assigns a name to the device, like: VID_xxxx&PID_yyyy For my crappy digital camera, although not connected but its enum data remains in the registry, under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR\ there was created the enum key named: Disk&Ven_FUJIFILM&Prod_USB-DRIVEUNIT&Rev_1.00 That's not unique. If I plugged in another camera of same brand model, it would have the same value. I don't see anything in that enum key for that device that yet uniquely identifies it. Not until I wander down through its subkeys do I find a "Hardware ID" data item that contains what looks like multiple IDs which progress from specifically identifying the device to more generic IDs. Alas, I don't have multiples of hardware that are of the same brand and model to see how their enumeration values would differ. You have a couple USB flash drives of same brand and model and showed the USB utility retrieved different serial number for them. If you look under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR\ and find the enum entry for each of those devices while they are plugged (or after you plug them in and unplug them), do they have the same or different Hardware ID values? Can you see the serial number in any of the data items or in the key names for the enum data for those devices? The reason why I am curious is that I have used the devcon.exe program (command-line equivalent of Device Management - except devcon.exe is old and only a 32-bit version exists for x86 architecture, no x64 version and the IA-64 is for Itanium) to disable and enable devices, specifically hard disks. The hardware ID is all I've been able to figure out how to specify which HDD to disable/enable (and, as I recall, is the only parameter devcon uses to identify the device). So the name of the ENUM key for the device doesn't look to identify the device but it's the Hardware ID in that device's enumeration data used to identify the device. If the serial number is in there somewhere, I'd like to know where it is. |
#12
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Drive later change - why?
VanguardLH wrote:
Paul wrote: VanguardLH wrote: R. C. White wrote: Hi, pjp and VanguardLH. You mean DISK Management (diskmgmt.msc), not DEVICE Management (devmgmt.msc). Windows by default assigns the next available letter to a newly-installed device. But, if you use Disk Management to specifically assign a letter to that new device, then Disk Management will use that assigned letter each time that device is re-connected. if possible. But if that letter has been assigned to a different device in the meantime, then Disk Management will revert to its default behavior. The terminology can get confusing: A "DRIVE" letter actually refers to a partition on a disk, rather than to the disk itself. So, for example, Drives C:, D:, X: and Y: can all reside on Disk 0. (Disks are assigned numbers, starting with zero, by the BIOS before Windows even loads.) And "drive" letters are also assigned to many other kinds of devices, such as USB flash drives, optical discs (CD/DVD), SD cards for cameras, network drives, etc. Most of these devices can be partitioned into multiple "drives", too, but usually are not. RC What does Disk Mgmt (thanks for the correction) do to recognize the SAME device got plugged in? There needs to be a sig on the device to identify it; however, I would think the firmware sig would be the same across the same model for the same brand. Do USB flash drives all have a different firmware sig? HDDs have a disk ID (in the MBR and, I assume, also in GPT) that can identify them but I don't know it is accessible through the USB interface (SATA to USB). When plugging in USB devices, their presentation data gets used in creating an enumeration entry for that device. You can find it under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SB HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR That's why, for example, when having problem with recognition of a USB device that you can delete its enumeration data in the registry to force re-recognition of that device rather than rely on the old enum data. I believe the USBSTOR key is where USB-attached drive types are registered. If you plugged in a USB drive and removed it, its enum data remains in the registry. For example, there is still a "PNY" entry under there although my old USB PNY flash drive got tossed awhile back (it went bad). Under there will be a registry subkey with a HardwareID data item with the device ID(s) for a device that you plugged in; however, I don't have multiples of the same device (same brand and model and version) to see how that hardware ID is different for each separate instance of the same product. Do you have multiple USB flash drives that are the same brand and model so you can see if they have the same or different hardware IDs? You don't have to use the registry to see this enumeration data. Run Disk Management and look at the properties of the USB drive when it is plugged in and after recognized. Under the properties for the USB drive, go to the Details tab. Select "Hardware ID" from the drop-down list of enumeration values. Enumeration data is the only means that I know of that the OS could identify what type is the USB device and provide some kind of signature of the device. USB devices have a serial number ("iSerialNumber"). In this example, two identical Lexar Jumpdrive USB keys, show their serial number. No matter what port this is plugged into, the serial number tells the system which device it is, and not to create a fresh entry when it is plugged in. The old entry can be used from the Registry. http://i59.tinypic.com/10z7gx5.gif What you're seeing there, is an example of the ideal case. That would work if Windows used that info. I found the following: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/usbcoreblog/...-a-device.aspx Looks like there is a "serial number string descriptor query" that gets the serial number. Presumably the iSerialNumber field shown in the USB utility is the serial number for the device that Windows will see. When I used Device Mgmt (safer then using regedit to look at enumeration data) and the properties of a drive under the Detail tab, I could see hardware IDs that looked like: ST3750528AS_____________________________CC44____ (for a Seagate HDD) WDC_WD10EZEX-00RKKA0____________________80.00A80 (for a Western Digital HDD) Alas, I do not have another same-vendor and same-model HDD to compare how their hwids would differ. Had to go back into the registry to look at the enumeration data. According to: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx the USB driver assigns a name to the device, like: VID_xxxx&PID_yyyy For my crappy digital camera, although not connected but its enum data remains in the registry, under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR\ there was created the enum key named: Disk&Ven_FUJIFILM&Prod_USB-DRIVEUNIT&Rev_1.00 That's not unique. If I plugged in another camera of same brand model, it would have the same value. I don't see anything in that enum key for that device that yet uniquely identifies it. Not until I wander down through its subkeys do I find a "Hardware ID" data item that contains what looks like multiple IDs which progress from specifically identifying the device to more generic IDs. Alas, I don't have multiples of hardware that are of the same brand and model to see how their enumeration values would differ. You have a couple USB flash drives of same brand and model and showed the USB utility retrieved different serial number for them. If you look under: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Enum\U SBSTOR\ and find the enum entry for each of those devices while they are plugged (or after you plug them in and unplug them), do they have the same or different Hardware ID values? Can you see the serial number in any of the data items or in the key names for the enum data for those devices? The reason why I am curious is that I have used the devcon.exe program (command-line equivalent of Device Management - except devcon.exe is old and only a 32-bit version exists for x86 architecture, no x64 version and the IA-64 is for Itanium) to disable and enable devices, specifically hard disks. The hardware ID is all I've been able to figure out how to specify which HDD to disable/enable (and, as I recall, is the only parameter devcon uses to identify the device). So the name of the ENUM key for the device doesn't look to identify the device but it's the Hardware ID in that device's enumeration data used to identify the device. If the serial number is in there somewhere, I'd like to know where it is. There is a devcon64. I have a copy. It's just torturous to get it. http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...evcon-exe.aspx I haven't tried it, but I'd probably just search the Registry for the serial number, and see how it's being used. There's enough stuff stitched together with GUIDs, the association could be stored practically anywhere. Paul |
#13
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Drive later change - why?
OK thanks for the replies. I think I will try having a letter further on
in the alphabet for a while, see if that sticks. I should have made it clear that I have been using Cobian with a drive plugged in to a USB port and assigned to G: for quite a few years. When I buy a new drive I use the same port and make sure it is set to G: of course. I will also try to remember how to get the Cobian icon to show all the time in the notification area instead of being hidden (it has a red blob on it when it fails). If anyone is interested my guess is that it is the laptop being part of the network and being on when the PC boots. |
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