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Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation



 
 
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  #16  
Old November 14th 10, 06:32 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

John John - MVP wrote:
I think that Bill was asking about the disk signature, with is a
different thing than the Volume ID.

John


With a hex editor, I can see it here, at 1B8 on an MBR I've got
archived. So it's easy to spot, as it is right before the
four partition entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record

In my hex editor (editing the archived MBR sector), I see

1B8 A1 84 9D 80

and in Diskpart "detail disk" I see

Disk ID: 80 9D 84 A1

so you have to be careful when looking at it from a tools perspective.
(It took me a few minutes to realize it was backwards.)

Paul
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  #17  
Old November 14th 10, 07:17 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

On 11/14/2010 1:32 PM, Paul wrote:
John John - MVP wrote:
I think that Bill was asking about the disk signature, with is a
different thing than the Volume ID.

John


With a hex editor, I can see it here, at 1B8 on an MBR I've got
archived. So it's easy to spot, as it is right before the
four partition entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record

In my hex editor (editing the archived MBR sector), I see

1B8 A1 84 9D 80


Yep, the 4 byte long NT disk signature is held from offsets
1B8h through 1BBh (byte 440 to 443). It's all well explained he
http://mirror.href.com/thestarman/asm/mbr/Win2kmbr.htm

John
  #18  
Old November 14th 10, 08:54 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tester[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 341
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation



Tim Meddick wrote:

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000 and
guess what? - No problems at all!!




Changing just one item does not in itself trigger an activation problem.
You need to make a series of changes to create a problem that you are
talking about.

I have made changes to my system by increasing or changing the memory
module but this too does not create a problem.

Few weeks later I will perform some other changes and again this won't
create any problems.

The problem only arises when you make substantial changes to make the
system think it is a different system.

Otherwise, I agree to your premise that cloning (or what I like to call
imaging because I use Ghost most of the time) does make an identical
copy of the HD and activation of Microsoft products (I emphasize MS) is
not a problem. I keep an image of my HD with Windows XP only then
install all the applications and create another image; then install all
the updates and create a third image. Finally, I make backups of my
data on a weekly basis knowing that the system is fully backed up.

hth
  #19  
Old November 14th 10, 09:59 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Tester wrote:
Tim Meddick wrote:

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000 and
guess what? - No problems at all!!



Changing just one item does not in itself trigger an activation problem.
You need to make a series of changes to create a problem that you are
talking about.


Nope. That is not always true! I only made ONE change (the HD), and that
was enough for a few applications. So while that may generally be true, it
is not always true.


  #20  
Old November 14th 10, 10:00 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Thanks for the verification John. I was wondering if I really was having
a senior moment again, but that's reassuring to hear. :-)

John John - MVP wrote:
I think that Bill was asking about the disk signature, with is a
different thing than the Volume ID.

John

On 11/14/2010 12:43 AM, Tim Meddick wrote:
One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the
partition. However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that
disk-cloning WOULD include in any copies it made.

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to
start the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the
DiskID (or hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry
(which would have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy
between it's recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the
volume serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation
all the time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000 and
guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any software
that want to know it!

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use a
hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR
to negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make
use of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is
reproduced in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get
a hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation,
so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to
extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the
registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.



  #21  
Old November 14th 10, 10:05 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Thanks Paul.
Yours - and John's - reference articles are pretty informative (the latter
ref is pretty heavy, however. :-)

Paul wrote:
John John - MVP wrote:
I think that Bill was asking about the disk signature, with is a
different thing than the Volume ID.

John


With a hex editor, I can see it here, at 1B8 on an MBR I've got
archived. So it's easy to spot, as it is right before the
four partition entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_boot_record

In my hex editor (editing the archived MBR sector), I see

1B8 A1 84 9D 80

and in Diskpart "detail disk" I see

Disk ID: 80 9D 84 A1

so you have to be careful when looking at it from a tools perspective.
(It took me a few minutes to realize it was backwards.)

Paul



  #22  
Old November 15th 10, 12:58 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Meddick[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,020
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

I have not used Acronis disk image - and if it does not, as you say (and
I'm not about to argue) then it cannot be creating a true CLONE copy of the
original!

A "clone" of the original means a complete copy of all data on a hard-drive
as opposed to just a "volume image file".

When you type ;

VOL C:

....at the command prompt, and get the following data returned ;

Volume in drive C is SYSTEM
Volume Serial Number is 1AD1-ABE1

....the Volume ID [1AD1-ABE1] is stored in the boot-sector of that volume.


This number is totally different from the data that's hard-encoded on the
firmware of a fixed-disk that can be queried by the operating system or any
other software.

This data would include the manufacturer's name and the hard-drive's unique
serial number.

For instance; I have two fixed hard-drives in my machine, both identical
Segate IDE 37.6 GB drives. Amongst the data retrieved by the OS from both
drives are as follows;

Physical disk 0 Manufacturer=Seagate
Device Instance
ID=IDE\DISKST340016A_______3.19___\483...

Physical disk 1 Manufacturer=Seagate
Device Instance
ID=IDE\DISKST340810A_______3.39___\463...

....this coincides with the BIOS data stating that the HD serial numbers are
as follows;

Disk0=ST340016A
Disk1=ST340810A

It would be irrelevant for this data to be encoded into the MBR or
Bootsector as any software can easily interrogate the device directly.

Also, each partition on the HD has it's own volume serial number, generated
by the format process, written into each Bootsector for each partition - as
shown - and this is, as you say, a number in hexadecimal format.

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news
Tim Meddick wrote:
One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the
partition.


I don't think I'm talking about any "volume ID" here. I'm talking about
a unique *disk identification number*, a string of hex digits, apparently
stored within the MBR. It is called the disk-id or the disk
identification number, not the volume number.

However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that disk-cloning WOULD
include in any copies it made.


And no, it doesn't! It wasn't until the most recent versions of Acronis
True Image that you even had the OPTION of cloning the *disk id*! The
recent versions provide a checkbox for just that (along with the MBR) if
you choose to select it. Otherwise, it is NOT copied over to the new
drive.

You can go check that out (I already read about it, and even tried this
thing out with a demo of a newer version to compare with my somewhat
older version. The new version has this special checkbox option, but the
older ones don't.

Plus if you research this on the Internet, you'll see where the exact
issue I've been talking about has come up for several other people (i.e.,
after cloning, some programs needed reactivation, due to this disk-id
issue).

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!


I respectively disagree, because I think we're talking about two
different things here. But if you've got a reference article that proves
me wrong on my assumptions, I'll look it up. (meaning it categorically
states that the volume ID is the same as the "disk-id" or "disk
identification number".

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to
start
the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the DiskID (or
hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry (which
would
have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy between it's
recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)


Again, which, AFAIK, is NOT what I'm talking about.

You may need a hard disk editor to find out its value, unless its value
is stored in the registry, and I'm not sure it really is. (Or one could
have a low level subroutine within one's program that could access the
disk/firmware to find out its value).

But again, I'm not talking about a "volume ID" here. (Paul can correct
me if I'm wrong here, however :-) These are two different things:
volume id and disk identification number, I do believe.

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the
volume
serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation all the
time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000
and guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any software
that
want to know it!


But that, I think, I believe.


==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to
use
a hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives MBR
to
negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently make
use
of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced
in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can get
a
hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due
to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that
several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection validation,
so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying.
:-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does
NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I
think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to
extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the
registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.




  #23  
Old November 15th 10, 02:07 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

What you see returned by the VOL command is the PARTITION ID number, or
the Partition Signature, this is not what Bill is talking about, he is
talking about the DISK Signature.

You can read the disk signature at the registry's
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices DosDevices values or you can
get it with the Diskpart utility... or read in from the MBR with disk
editing or MBR tools like MBRWiz.

The partition signature is made up of the Disk Signature plus additional
numbers. If you have more than one partition on the disk you can look
as the DosDevices values at the MountedDevices key and you will see that
all the partitions on the same disk start with the same signature, the
first four bytes are the disk signature, it will look something like this:

CA A5 F8 A7

The signature is read in reverse order from the DosDevices value, the
above translates to the following disk signatu

A7F8A5CA

John


On 11/14/2010 7:58 PM, Tim Meddick wrote:
I have not used Acronis disk image - and if it does not, as you say (and
I'm not about to argue) then it cannot be creating a true CLONE copy of
the original!

A "clone" of the original means a complete copy of all data on a
hard-drive as opposed to just a "volume image file".

When you type ;

VOL C:

...at the command prompt, and get the following data returned ;

Volume in drive C is SYSTEM
Volume Serial Number is 1AD1-ABE1

...the Volume ID [1AD1-ABE1] is stored in the boot-sector of that volume.


This number is totally different from the data that's hard-encoded on
the firmware of a fixed-disk that can be queried by the operating system
or any other software.

This data would include the manufacturer's name and the hard-drive's
unique serial number.

For instance; I have two fixed hard-drives in my machine, both identical
Segate IDE 37.6 GB drives. Amongst the data retrieved by the OS from
both drives are as follows;

Physical disk 0 Manufacturer=Seagate
Device Instance ID=IDE\DISKST340016A_______3.19___\483...

Physical disk 1 Manufacturer=Seagate
Device Instance ID=IDE\DISKST340810A_______3.39___\463...

...this coincides with the BIOS data stating that the HD serial numbers
are as follows;

Disk0=ST340016A
Disk1=ST340810A

It would be irrelevant for this data to be encoded into the MBR or
Bootsector as any software can easily interrogate the device directly.

Also, each partition on the HD has it's own volume serial number,
generated by the format process, written into each Bootsector for each
partition - as shown - and this is, as you say, a number in hexadecimal
format.

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
news
Tim Meddick wrote:
One more time.......

The disk (volume) has it's VolumeID - that IS written into the
partition.


I don't think I'm talking about any "volume ID" here. I'm talking
about a unique *disk identification number*, a string of hex digits,
apparently stored within the MBR. It is called the disk-id or the disk
identification number, not the volume number.

However, that is an intrinsic part of the data that disk-cloning WOULD
include in any copies it made.


And no, it doesn't! It wasn't until the most recent versions of
Acronis True Image that you even had the OPTION of cloning the *disk
id*! The recent versions provide a checkbox for just that (along with
the MBR) if you choose to select it. Otherwise, it is NOT copied over
to the new drive.

You can go check that out (I already read about it, and even tried
this thing out with a demo of a newer version to compare with my
somewhat older version. The new version has this special checkbox
option, but the older ones don't.

Plus if you research this on the Internet, you'll see where the exact
issue I've been talking about has come up for several other people
(i.e., after cloning, some programs needed reactivation, due to this
disk-id issue).

That makes it NOT the cause of sudden requests by software for
"re-activation"!


I respectively disagree, because I think we're talking about two
different things here. But if you've got a reference article that
proves me wrong on my assumptions, I'll look it up. (meaning it
categorically states that the volume ID is the same as the "disk-id"
or "disk identification number".

No - the only thing that makes any sense is this; that if you try to
start
the software from a cloned copy of a disk it will compare the DiskID (or
hard-drive serial number) with one contained in the registry (which
would
have been gathered on installation) and found a discrepancy between it's
recorded DiskID and that of the current hard-drive.

The VolumeID (that is written into the bootsector) has got nothing to do
with it.

(That's the number that shows up when you type VOL C: at the prompt)


Again, which, AFAIK, is NOT what I'm talking about.

You may need a hard disk editor to find out its value, unless its
value is stored in the registry, and I'm not sure it really is. (Or
one could have a low level subroutine within one's program that could
access the disk/firmware to find out its value).

But again, I'm not talking about a "volume ID" here. (Paul can correct
me if I'm wrong here, however :-) These are two different things:
volume id and disk identification number, I do believe.

Otherwise one could not use such utilities as volid.exe to alter the
volume
serial number (VolumeID) without Windows wanting re-activation all the
time....

Just changed my SYSTEM drive's VolumeID from 1AD1-ABE1 to 0000-0000
and guess what? - No problems at all!!

But the hard-drive's serial number is hard-encoded into the firmware
components on the hard-drive itself and can be queried by any
software that
want to know it!


But that, I think, I believe.


==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Everybody except me. :-) But even if I could get it, I'd have to use
a hex editor and write its exact value back into the source drives
MBR to
negate this one issue - a bit risky, at that. :-)

What I found interesting was that only a few programs apparently
make use
of that for copy protection and activation purposes. I can see the
advantage of doing so from the software manufacturer's viewpoint,
however. But for the user it can be a bit of a nuisance, and nasty if
the company goes out of business (then your software that checked that
disk identification ID becomes effectively useless)

Tim Meddick wrote:
Whether or not what you call the disk id (serial number) is reproduced
in
the boot sector or not, the system, or any program that asks, can
get a
hd
serial number by querying the hard-drive directly...

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Some FYI here, and a question or two, on disk cloning:

One thing I found interesting (annoying, actually) was that after
cloning
my main system drive to a brand new one and putting the new one in,
several programs needed to be reactivated. Apparently this is due to
the disk-id's being different for each drive. It appears that several
programs use that disk-id as a basis for copy protection
validation, so
if you replace your source drive, be aware. It's a bit annoying. :-)

Acronis True Image (at least my older version, True Home 11), does
NOT
clone the disk-id as part of the MBR

Actually, if anyone happens to know of an inexpensive cloning program
that does clone over the disk-id (at least as an option), it would be
good to hear. Perhaps Clonezilla does, or something like that? I
think
the newer and more bloated versions of Acronis can allow for it.

At any rate, I was thinking another way around this would be to
extract
the disk-id of the original ID (maybe it's even stored in the
registry,
or somewhere in an older image backup) and then use a disk editor to
write that hex value to the MBR in place of the current one, although
this sounds a bit risky. Has anyone ever tried that?

It probably would be simpler to just find some disk cloning program
that
*actually copies the entire MBR minus the partition table but
*including*
the disk-id, and redoing this, if I understand this right.

Otherwise, one is forced to go through the hassle of reactivating the
variouus programs as the incidents show up.





  #24  
Old November 15th 10, 03:42 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Meddick[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,020
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Point taken - we all live and learn......

I use CloneMaxx - a DOS-based (or 4dos) program started from a floppy disk.

This copies the entire physical HD from sector 0 to it's end to another
drive of sufficient size (this obviously includes the MBR and DiskID)...

Download the Clone Maxx [free] software (749.78K)
http://download.cnet.com/PC-Inspecto...-10216111.html

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"John John - MVP" wrote in message
...
What you see returned by the VOL command is the PARTITION ID number, or
the Partition Signature, this is not what Bill is talking about, he is
talking about the DISK Signature.

You can read the disk signature at the registry's
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices DosDevices values or you can get
it with the Diskpart utility... or read in from the MBR with disk editing
or MBR tools like MBRWiz.

The partition signature is made up of the Disk Signature plus additional
numbers. If you have more than one partition on the disk you can look as
the DosDevices values at the MountedDevices key and you will see that all
the partitions on the same disk start with the same signature, the first
four bytes are the disk signature, it will look something like this:

CA A5 F8 A7

The signature is read in reverse order from the DosDevices value, the
above translates to the following disk signatu

A7F8A5CA

John


clipped

  #25  
Old November 15th 10, 06:57 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,927
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Tim Meddick wrote:
Point taken - we all live and learn......


Yeah, and we all do. :-)

I use CloneMaxx - a DOS-based (or 4dos) program started from a floppy
disk.


Well, at first glance this looked promising, but it's apparently so old it
doesn't support SATA drives, or even USB. Which kills it for me (and I
imagine quite a few others with updated hardware), unfortunately. I think
the older IDE or PATA drives are becoming a bit of history, now. :-)

This copies the entire physical HD from sector 0 to it's end to another
drive of sufficient size (this obviously includes the MBR and DiskID)...


I don't know about the "obviously" part, however. As I explained earlier,
which cloning programs copy which parts of the MBR ... is still up in the
air. They all don't copy the disk-id, as I mentioned. In fact, if I were
taking bets, I'd bet most DON'T copy the disk-id (nor should they, in
principle).

Download the Clone Maxx [free] software (749.78K)
http://download.cnet.com/PC-Inspecto...-10216111.html

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"John John - MVP" wrote in message
...
What you see returned by the VOL command is the PARTITION ID number, or
the Partition Signature, this is not what Bill is talking about, he is
talking about the DISK Signature.

You can read the disk signature at the registry's
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices DosDevices values or you can get
it with the Diskpart utility... or read in from the MBR with disk editing
or MBR tools like MBRWiz.

The partition signature is made up of the Disk Signature plus additional
numbers. If you have more than one partition on the disk you can look as
the DosDevices values at the MountedDevices key and you will see that all
the partitions on the same disk start with the same signature, the first
four bytes are the disk signature, it will look something like this:

CA A5 F8 A7

The signature is read in reverse order from the DosDevices value, the
above translates to the following disk signatu

A7F8A5CA

John


clipped



  #26  
Old November 15th 10, 12:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tim Meddick[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,020
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

I said "Obviously" because it was part of a larger sentence that began
"This copies the entire physical HD from sector 0 to it's end..." and if
that is true (that it copies the *entire* drive ), then the MBR would be
part of that.

But also, on reflection, maybe I should have mentioned CloneMaxx's
limitations.

I don't se why the software shouldn't copy the DiskID - it's just a random
number, as far as I can tell, that's assigned by the OS for future
reference. It's not like it's taken from the physical disk like it's
serial number, is it?

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...
Tim Meddick wrote:
Point taken - we all live and learn......


Yeah, and we all do. :-)

I use CloneMaxx - a DOS-based (or 4dos) program started from a floppy
disk.


Well, at first glance this looked promising, but it's apparently so old
it doesn't support SATA drives, or even USB. Which kills it for me (and
I imagine quite a few others with updated hardware), unfortunately. I
think the older IDE or PATA drives are becoming a bit of history, now.
:-)

This copies the entire physical HD from sector 0 to it's end to another
drive of sufficient size (this obviously includes the MBR and DiskID)...


I don't know about the "obviously" part, however. As I explained
earlier, which cloning programs copy which parts of the MBR ... is still
up in the air. They all don't copy the disk-id, as I mentioned. In
fact, if I were taking bets, I'd bet most DON'T copy the disk-id (nor
should they, in principle).

Download the Clone Maxx [free] software (749.78K)
http://download.cnet.com/PC-Inspecto...-10216111.html

==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"John John - MVP" wrote in message
...
What you see returned by the VOL command is the PARTITION ID number, or
the Partition Signature, this is not what Bill is talking about, he is
talking about the DISK Signature.

You can read the disk signature at the registry's
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices DosDevices values or you can
get
it with the Diskpart utility... or read in from the MBR with disk
editing
or MBR tools like MBRWiz.

The partition signature is made up of the Disk Signature plus
additional
numbers. If you have more than one partition on the disk you can look
as
the DosDevices values at the MountedDevices key and you will see that
all
the partitions on the same disk start with the same signature, the
first
four bytes are the disk signature, it will look something like this:

CA A5 F8 A7

The signature is read in reverse order from the DosDevices value, the
above translates to the following disk signatu

A7F8A5CA

John


clipped




  #27  
Old November 15th 10, 01:14 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Hot-Text
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 158
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

Mr. Tim Med-dick

http://mynews.ath.cx/doc/winsys/Sys/Vol-Ser-Num.jpg

In Command Prompt

C:\dir vol

For it's VSN

C:\cd D:
D:\

D:\dir Vol

For a it VSN
  #28  
Old November 15th 10, 02:30 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

On 11/15/2010 7:27 AM, Tim Meddick wrote:

I don't see why the software shouldn't copy the DiskID - it's just a
random number, as far as I can tell, that's assigned by the OS for
future reference. It's not like it's taken from the physical disk like
it's serial number, is it?


Windows NT operating systems cannot access disks without signatures,
they use signatures to identify disks and the Mount Manager uses
signatures to assign persistent drive letters. If a disk has no
signature Windows will write one to the disk. No two disks can have
identical signatures, if two disks have identical signatures Windows
will change the signature on one of them, this can lead to booting
problems when the signature on the boot disk is changed as the Mount
Manager may assign a different letter to the drive.

In view of the fact that no two disks can have the same signature it is
not unusual for cloning utilities to not copy the signature to the newly
cloned disk, different cloning utilities handle this differently in
their default settings and most of the better utilities have switches to
copy or not copy the signature, just like they have switches to copy or
not copy volatile files like the pagefile or hibernation file.

John

  #29  
Old November 15th 10, 02:38 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
John John - MVP[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,637
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing newreactivation

On 11/15/2010 8:14 AM, Hot-Text wrote:
Mr. Tim Med-dick

http://mynews.ath.cx/doc/winsys/Sys/Vol-Ser-Num.jpg

In Command Prompt

C:\dir vol

For it's VSN

C:\cd D:
D:\

D:\dir Vol

For a it VSN


Now try these:


Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\diskpart

Microsoft DiskPart version 5.1.3565

Copyright (C) 1999-2003 Microsoft Corporation.
On computer: JGZ-HOME

DISKPART select disk 0

Disk 0 is now the selected disk.

DISKPART detail disk

IBM-ESXS ST373207LW FN SCSI Disk Device
Disk ID: CCCDCCCD
Type : SCSI
Bus : 3
Target : 0
LUN ID : 0

Volume ### Ltr Label Fs Type Size Status Info
---------- --- ----------- ----- ---------- ------- ---------
--------
Volume 2 C JGZ-HOME NTFS Partition 67 GB Healthy
System

DISKPART select disk 1

Disk 1 is now the selected disk.

DISKPART detail disk

FUJITSU MBA3147NC SCSI Disk Device
Disk ID: A7F8A5CA
Type : SCSI
Bus : 3
Target : 1
LUN ID : 0

Volume ### Ltr Label Fs Type Size Status Info
---------- --- ----------- ----- ---------- ------- ---------
--------
Volume 3 D Data Disk NTFS Partition 137 GB Healthy

DISKPART exit

Leaving DiskPart...

C:\

John
  #30  
Old November 15th 10, 08:08 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
bobster[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Problems with cloning, and the different disk-id's forcing new reactivation

?"Bill in Co" wrote in message
m...

Tim Meddick wrote:
Point taken - we all live and learn......


Yeah, and we all do. :-)

I use CloneMaxx - a DOS-based (or 4dos) program started from a floppy
disk.


Well, at first glance this looked promising, but it's apparently so old it
doesn't support SATA drives, or even USB. Which kills it for me (and I
imagine quite a few others with updated hardware), unfortunately. I think
the older IDE or PATA drives are becoming a bit of history, now. :-)

This copies the entire physical HD from sector 0 to it's end to another
drive of sufficient size (this obviously includes the MBR and DiskID)...


I don't know about the "obviously" part, however. As I explained earlier,
which cloning programs copy which parts of the MBR ... is still up in the
air. They all don't copy the disk-id, as I mentioned. In fact, if I were
taking bets, I'd bet most DON'T copy the disk-id (nor should they, in
principle).

Download the Clone Maxx [free] software (749.78K)
http://download.cnet.com/PC-Inspecto...-10216111.html

Bill in Colorado,

I have been following this item for several days and am amazed at all the
"stuff" that is being proposed to solve the simple problem of cloning one
bootable hard disk to another.
If your only task is to clone one HD to another, Casper 6.0
(http://www.fssdev.com/products/casper/) does it quickly and flawlessly
every time, at least that has been my experience from V.4 to the current
V.6.0. It copies the total contents of the donor disk to the target disk
exactly and precisely. If the donor disk was bootable, so will be the
target disk. All of my disks are SATA3 and I'm now using Windows 7 32 bit.
The only requirement is that the target disk must be equal to or larger in
size to the donor disk. I believe that Casper has a free trial. I paid
$49.95 for it several years ago and it is the best spent 50 bucks in memory.

Let me state right here that I have no connection with Casper other than as
a satisfied user for several years.


================================================== ================================================== ======
==

Cheers, Tim Meddick, Peckham, London. :-)




"John John - MVP" wrote in message
...
What you see returned by the VOL command is the PARTITION ID number, or
the Partition Signature, this is not what Bill is talking about, he is
talking about the DISK Signature.

You can read the disk signature at the registry's
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices DosDevices values or you can get
it with the Diskpart utility... or read in from the MBR with disk editing
or MBR tools like MBRWiz.

The partition signature is made up of the Disk Signature plus additional
numbers. If you have more than one partition on the disk you can look as
the DosDevices values at the MountedDevices key and you will see that all
the partitions on the same disk start with the same signature, the first
four bytes are the disk signature, it will look something like this:

CA A5 F8 A7

The signature is read in reverse order from the DosDevices value, the
above translates to the following disk signatu

A7F8A5CA

John


clipped




 




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