Windows 10? Free? Ed Bott has some thoughts

http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

On 03/23/2015 01:51 PM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61




Thanks for providing some very good info!

Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61


The answer to his last question is "they can't help themselves".

--
A

Kirk Bubul wrote:

http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

Microsoft requires UEFI so they can insert their product key to lock
that machine to run only Windows 10. Since I may want to multi-boot to
older versions of Windows (to which I have legitimate licenses that are
not fettered by being base versions to later upgrades) or to Linux
variants then I won't want Windows 10 in the mix.

The UEFI requirement also means I couldn't even use Windows 10 if I
wanted to until my next new build which is still probably a few years
away and long past Microsoft's "free" upgrade offer.

So the free update will be via Windows Update site, huh? Hmm, that
means for a clean Windows 10 that I'll have to save a backup, wipe the
OS partition(s) on my disk, install a clean Windows 7, and then use WU
to update to have a clean Windows 10. I detest polluted upgrades. If a
disk dies, I'll have to do that anyway (or restore from image backups)
to get Windows 10 back on my computer. The free offer is via the WU
site which means Windows 7/8 already has to be installed to be visiting
the WU site to get the Windows 10 upgrade download. So what happens
after the 1-year free upgrade expires and then my disk dies (and if I
was like most users that don't do backups)?

"The consumer free upgrade offer for Windows 10 applies to qualified
new and existing devices running Windows 7, Windows 8.1 and Windows
Phone 8.1."

"new and existing devices" is stupid. What other types of devices are
there? Just say "devices". It's just words to add verbiage.

"Some editions are excluded from the consumer free upgrade - including
Windows 7 Enterprise, Windows 8/8.1 Enterprise, and Windows RT/RT 8.1."

Yep, Microsoft doesn't want to lose their volume licensing revenue which
typically means the support contracts, too. So the free upgrade is
really targeting single-user [home] consumers, a much smaller dent in
their total user base, and not for business users.

Bott also figures "consumer" means the Home edition of Windows. Yuck.
I've had only one Home edition of Windows at home and many times got
snagged by features missing in it compared to the Pro version, like the
policy editors (local and groups), EFS, 16GB max RAM instead of 192GB,
Presentation support, software restriction policies (SRPs) that let me
block a program from ever loading (handy for apps that are rude in
reestablishing their startup program when they run), no domain joining
(so forget toting my laptop to work unless I go out to come back in but
into the corporate network's safe zone which means many resources are
unavailable), and probably more Pro-only features than I've tried. No
more crippled Home editions on my desktop.

I like how Bott noticed how the free upgrade to Windows 10 will still
leave that installation a pirated copy. That means all those updates
from the WU site that were refused due to an invalid license will still
get rejected after the free upgrade to Windows 10. They'll let you
upgrade to Windows 10 from a pirate copy of Windows 7/8 but you still
don't get a legitimate license with that upgrade.

As with luring most of their users to upgrade to the newest version of
Internet Explorer by including it in a list of updates from the WU site,
they'll use the same trick of offering the free update to Windows 10
from the WU site. So users NOT wanting to upgrade will have to be wary
and watchful of what updates Microsoft tries to push via WU.

Microsoft, as well as any commercial vendor, envies the subscription
model that anti-virus vendors have long enjoyed. Microsoft has tested
subscriptionware, like Office 365, and it looks like that is their
intended direction. When the free 1-year upgrade offer expires, my bet
is that it provides an interim during which Microsoft can tweak a
subscription model for Windows. Whether you upgraded free or got it
later at an initial full price, thereafter it'll be $69.99/yr to renew
your subscription to Windows. I fear that eventually you no longer can
disable automatic updates; i.e., auto-updates will be enabled for
"download and install" and you can't set to "notify only".

"Slowly I turned. Step by step, step by step, I crept upon him."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr6VBg1SiYI (a bit out of sync)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N59pcYWsuSQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slowly_I_Turned

Kirk Bubul wrote on 3/23/2015 2:51 PM:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

The OEM question is a good one. I have an OEM software I bought and it's legit/legal and passes the Genuine
validation. Hmmm This will be fun if nothing else.

On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

QUESTION

If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my
computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to
win 10 whether I want it or not?????????

I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the
answers.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maurice Helwig
~~~~~~~~~~~~

On 03/23/2015 06:00 PM, Maurice Helwig wrote:
On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61


QUESTION

If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my
computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to
win 10 whether I want it or not?????????

I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the
answers.





Not likely it would just happen automatically.

Until Win10 is released...everything that's been talked about here is
still just speculation. Things can (and will) change.



That said: I prefer the idea of manual updates. Nothing worse than
having them happen when you are in the middle of doing something.

On 03/23/2015 03:50 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Microsoft requires UEFI so they can insert their product key to lock
that machine to run only Windows 10.

Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge
berg to reset the whole mess?

T wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to
reset the whole mess?

I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced
[the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means
the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS.
BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which
requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the
settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS
firmware.

You are not raising voltage on the EEPROM chips containing the BIOS or
UEFI firmware to, say, burn in a password when you enable it in BIOS.
You are updating the CMOS copy of the BIOS settings. Modifications you
make in BIOS are not replicated back in the EEPROMS (well, there may be
some mobos that let you burn the current CMOS setup back in the BIOS
EEPROMs but I haven't used them). The settings used are from the CMOS
copy. Flashing (burning) the EEPROM(s) is a hazardous action and why
they have users modifying a copy in the CMOS table (so screwups or
corruption can be corrected by re-copying the static BIOS settings).

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...rtooth_P67.zip

That's a manual for an Asus Sabertooth P67 mobo and it has UEFI. Page
2-12, section 2.2.5, describes the reset jumper for CMOS.

UEFI is shorthand for UEFI BIOS to differentiate it from old or MBR
oriented BIOS. It's still a BIOS. UEFI is firmware code. [Old] BIOS
is firmware code. You don't modify the firmware. You modify a copy of
it in CMOS.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...s_Vii_Hero.pdf

Section 1.2.6, page 1-29. That UEFI mobo has a button called CLR_CMOS
you press (instead of digging around for a jumper to put across a couple
header pins on the mobo).

CMOS doesn't disappear just because the BIOS firmware changed in the
EEPROM chip(s). [Old MBR] BIOS and UEFI [BIOS] are firmware. There
might be updates to firmware over time but most times the old firmware
works just fine and users that flash to newer firmware have been well
trained in the mantra "newer is better" when, in reality it's "newer is
different". New code: might fix old bugs, may add new bugs.

I don't see any mobo maker wanting its users to casually flash (burn)
the firmware every time the user wants to tweak a setting in UEFI/BIOS.
They let you putz around with the CMOS copy and keep the firmware copy
safe to replace the CMOS copy when you or something screws up the CMOS
copy. How many times have you flashed your BIOS versus how many times
you altered the BIOS settings copied into CMOS (i.e., the "BIOS" screens
when you boot)?

philo wrote:
On 03/23/2015 06:00 PM, Maurice Helwig wrote:
On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61



QUESTION

If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my
computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to
win 10 whether I want it or not?????????

I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the
answers.





Not likely it would just happen automatically.

Until Win10 is released...everything that's been talked about here is
still just speculation. Things can (and will) change.



That said: I prefer the idea of manual updates. Nothing worse than
having them happen when you are in the middle of doing something.

I also prefer manual but in the latest win 10 10041 there is no option
to disable auto update. Win 10 is also going to eliminate the control
panel. My opinion is that microsoft is going to try to lock down
everybody that uses or upgrades to win 10.I installed win 10 with an
iso.I also had ueif disabled and it installed.On 1 of my drives I had
win 8.1 + win7 dual booting.On the other drive I had Mint linux 17.1
cinnamon running.I installed win 10 to another unused drive.I only ran
win 10 for a day and removed it.I hate it. When I went to boot my other
windows 8.1 it would not boot.It would only boot the old win 10 drive no
matter which one I set in the bios. So I used the windows 8 disk to
repair the MBR and could then boot win 8+7.I then used the live cd and
was able to reinstall grub so I could boot linux.The one drive that I
didn't use was marked read only I assume by win 10,so I had to fix this
also. Buy the way this is my test machine so I pretty much don't worry
about hosing it. I have installed every preview of win 10 so far and
this was the 1st one to act this bad.I will never say that I will not
use win 10 but it going to have to prove me wrong about the lockdown and
I will only install it if I have a disk iso or whatever.I will not be
doing any over the air auto update to recieve the win 10 upgrade.

On 03/23/2015 05:29 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to
reset the whole mess?

I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced
[the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means
the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS.
BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which
requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the
settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS
firmware.

You are not raising voltage on the EEPROM chips containing the BIOS or
UEFI firmware to, say, burn in a password when you enable it in BIOS.
You are updating the CMOS copy of the BIOS settings. Modifications you
make in BIOS are not replicated back in the EEPROMS (well, there may be
some mobos that let you burn the current CMOS setup back in the BIOS
EEPROMs but I haven't used them). The settings used are from the CMOS
copy. Flashing (burning) the EEPROM(s) is a hazardous action and why
they have users modifying a copy in the CMOS table (so screwups or
corruption can be corrected by re-copying the static BIOS settings).

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...rtooth_P67.zip

That's a manual for an Asus Sabertooth P67 mobo and it has UEFI. Page
2-12, section 2.2.5, describes the reset jumper for CMOS.

UEFI is shorthand for UEFI BIOS to differentiate it from old or MBR
oriented BIOS. It's still a BIOS. UEFI is firmware code. [Old] BIOS
is firmware code. You don't modify the firmware. You modify a copy of
it in CMOS.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...s_Vii_Hero.pdf

Section 1.2.6, page 1-29. That UEFI mobo has a button called CLR_CMOS
you press (instead of digging around for a jumper to put across a couple
header pins on the mobo).

CMOS doesn't disappear just because the BIOS firmware changed in the
EEPROM chip(s). [Old MBR] BIOS and UEFI [BIOS] are firmware. There
might be updates to firmware over time but most times the old firmware
works just fine and users that flash to newer firmware have been well
trained in the mantra "newer is better" when, in reality it's "newer is
different". New code: might fix old bugs, may add new bugs.

I don't see any mobo maker wanting its users to casually flash (burn)
the firmware every time the user wants to tweak a setting in UEFI/BIOS.
They let you putz around with the CMOS copy and keep the firmware copy
safe to replace the CMOS copy when you or something screws up the CMOS
copy. How many times have you flashed your BIOS versus how many times
you altered the BIOS settings copied into CMOS (i.e., the "BIOS" screens
when you boot)?


Thank you! Wonderful write up.

VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote:

Just out of curiosity, do UEFI motherboards have a discharge berg to
reset the whole mess?

I don't have any UEFI motherboard so I haven't personally experienced
[the nuisance of] using them. I'm assuming your "discharge berg" means
the header on the mobo used to reset the CMOS. UEFI replaces BIOS.
BIOS settings are read from the copy put into the CMOS table (which
requires a battery when the PC has no power source to retain the
settings in CMOS), not directly from the EEPROM(s) holding the BIOS
firmware.


I'm not sure about storage options for UEFI systems.

The BIOS has *always* had the ability to flash the EEPROM chip.
On at least one brand of BIOS (Award or AMI), there is a
subroutine that knows how to flash EEPROM segments.

The area that a legacy BIOS updates, is DMI/ESCD. Any time the
CPU changes, more RAM is added, DMI is updated, the EEPROM segment
is burned. And this is one reason why, if you "upgrade" a BIOS,
pull the EEPROM chip out of the socket and put it in a lab
programmer later, the checksum won't match your original file.
It's because after the first boot, the DMI has been edited by
the BIOS and the whole image is no longer the same. I've tested
this, and right after a BIOS upgrade, my checksum was no longer
the same. And the DMI does it. Only a portion of the BIOS
image is "non-volatile", and only that area should be checksummed.

*******

As for the statements about BIOS passwords, there are two implementations.

On a desktop, typically two locations in CMOS RAM hold the password string.
On those, using the CLR_CMOS header, clears the password. So those are
easy to fix.

On "business" laptops, a 2KB EEPROM located near the Sourhbridge holds
the password. The tech support info says to ship the laptop back
to the factory, to have a forgotten password cleared. A dude in
Romania, charges $50 for a package (plus clip-on hardware connections),
to clear the EEPROM. It's not clear whether any special pattern has to be
stored in that chip, for the laptop to operate correctly. So those
don't have the easy option of a CMOS jumper. You're kinda screwed,
if helping a customer who owns such a laptop.

*******

The UEFI could be re-writing major portions
of the BIOS, and we'd never know it. Since UEFI
has a file system, and appears to have all sorts of
whizzy update options, I will not be surprised to
hear about it eventually getting trashed (somehow).
UEFI has all the earmarks of being an eventual
disaster (malware). It's just a matter of time until
someone figures out a way to brick it.

I've already read one posting, where someone managed to
disable BIOS access on a UEFI system, via a setting
in Windows. And there didn't appear to be any way to
reverse the operation. So UEFI is smelling liks
a disaster waiting to happen. About as safe as a
chocolate teapot.

Paul

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:00:47 +1000, Maurice Helwig
wrote:

If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my
computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to
win 10 whether I want it or not?????????

It'll be a global disaster if that does happen. I don't think that's
an exaggeration either - imagine hundreds of millions of computers all
over the world suddenly unusable for several hours (or perhaps days
for those on dial-up) while they "upgrade" themselves and then display
a new system their users don't understand. And that'll just be the
ones where the upgrade itself goes without a hitch.

Rod.

On Tue, 24 Mar 2015 09:00:47 +1000, Maurice Helwig
wrote:

On 24/03/2015 4:51 AM, Kirk Bubul wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

QUESTION

If the update to win 10 is free and is done via Windows Updates, and my
computer is set to automatic updates -- do I get updated from win 7 to
win 10 whether I want it or not?????????

I am going to set all my computers to manual updates until I know the
answers.

http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-03-24

Rod.

Big_Al wrote:

Kirk Bubul wrote on 3/23/2015 2:51 PM:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/will-mi...tag=TRE17cfd61

The OEM question is a good one. I have an OEM software I bought and it's
legit/legal and passes the Genuine
validation. Hmmm This will be fun if nothing else.

go here for a windows 8.1 iso
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/w...-refresh-media

After i downloaded it and started to install, it said windows 8
but after the install i went to control panel and system and it said it was
windows 8.1 pro. i used my windows 8 pro cd-key to install.
I installed to virtualbox as i did not want to mess with my windows 8.1 pro
install.

i installed from fresh no upgrade. I downloaded windows 8.1 pro just to
prepare for what is coming. As i don't like what i am seeing. And i don't
like what i am reading on this news group.

I hope this helps others.