Win 10 a disaster.

Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/
Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't showing
and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through Programs
to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a Win
10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick with Win
8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill

On 12/6/2015 7:48 PM, Kenny wrote:
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?

Remember to backup your data first!

Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT

Windows.old can always be deleted later.

--
@~@ Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers and magicians is real!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you!
/( _ )\ (Fedora release 23) Linux 4.2.6-301.fc23.x86_64
^ ^ 19:42:01 up 5 days 10:16 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05
�借貸! ��騙! ��交! �打交! �打劫! �自殺! 請考慮綜� (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa

On 12/6/2015 5:51 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 12/6/2015 7:48 PM, Kenny wrote:
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?

Remember to backup your data first!

Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT

Windows.old can always be deleted later.

Check to see if your present version of W10 is showing as activated.
If it is then you should not need your W8 serial as your hardware is
already in the W10 activated database. Still, it is not a bad idea to
tape a copy of that W8.1 serial number inside your computers case in
case Microsoft borks something else later on.

That means when you do the fresh install from the W10 ISO is should
automatically re-activate your fresh copy of W10.

Might take up to a day to show up activated but I've had some machines
show up as activated with in 5 minutes or less after a fresh install on
previously W10 activated hardware.

On 12/6/2015 4:51 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:


Windows 10 is a disaster. But do not delete windows.old, use the file
cleanup utility and select system files, or you will have to screw
around with files ownership and permissions. Most average users would
be in a mess using delete.

Being the family computer guy, I am already tired of the Windows 10
upgrade issues. Citing the following:

- drivers often do not update, Intel Wireless/Bluetooth is a good
example but there were others. Need to manually go into device manager
and scan for better ones.

- old drivers were often duplicate installs of newer drivers, system
speeds up as as you clean up old ones. A major source of why some
updates/upgrades get a slow computer. Not end user friendly as
installing the wrong ones, not good. And not easy to figure when its 2
drivers for the same device.

- Apps menu gets junk added after uninstall so customizations are lost.
WTF is M$ thinking? Its fruitless to customize the Apps list as next
update M$ puts crap back in.

- OneDrive is a major security issue.

- Bugs in update, no easy fixes. Certainly not end user friendly.

- Lots of other issues from smashing homegroups, lost settings, update
sharing doesn't work, weather app thinks I am in Ottawa until I edit the
settings...and make no changes, a reboot later it works. Stupid idiot
bugs. I really think Microsoft is using us as beta testers.

In a nutshell, Windows 10 is not ready for average users unless they
have Geek Squad on rapid dial.

Going to buy some Chromebooks for the grandkids.

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/

Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.



--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience

Canuck57 wrote:

In a nutshell, Windows 10 is not ready for average users unless they
have Geek Squad on rapid dial.


Rapid dialing Geek Squad is like asking the elementary school choir for
help.

--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience

On Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:32:01 -0700, ...winston?
wrote:

Canuck57 wrote:

In a nutshell, Windows 10 is not ready for average users unless they
have Geek Squad on rapid dial.


Rapid dialing Geek Squad is like asking the elementary school choir for
help.


LOL! Ditto!

On 06/12/2015 20:17, Canuck57 wrote:
....
idiot bugs. I really think Microsoft is using us as beta testers.

Use the Pro edition and defer upgrades.

Thanks for the replies it's not my lucky day at all. I have here a new
500GB Samsung SSD, if the Win 10 upgrade had gone smoothly I may have
migrated to the new drive using the supplied Samsung software, if not
replace the drive and clean install.
Have replaced HDD's on desktops and occasionally on laptops but it was
always fairly easy, just open the cover, remove old drive and fit new. Not
so easy with this Acer laptop, had to remove about 20 screws from bottom and
carefully prise up keyboard. There are 3 ribbon cables using those ZIF
connectors (KB, touchpad and one right across the back of HDD) which have to
be removed for access to HDD. Having once before damaged one of these on a
mobile phone I'm a bit wary of touching them.
Have looked at a few YT clips about working with these type of connectors
but I may take it to a local repair shop rather than risk damage.
Why do Acer have to be so awkward, why not just a panel giving easy access
to HDD like other laptops?

Kenny

"...winston‫" wrote in message ...

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/

Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.



--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience

On 06/12/2015 11:48, Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/

Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
What was wrong with 8.1? It's being supported until 2023.

--

John

www.weather.johnwnice.co.uk

On 06 Dec 2015, John Nice wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

What was wrong with 8.1? It's being supported until 2023.

But... but... but... Windows 10 is *FREE*!

Kenny wrote:
Thanks for the replies it's not my lucky day at all. I have here a new
500GB Samsung SSD, if the Win 10 upgrade had gone smoothly I may have
migrated to the new drive using the supplied Samsung software, if not
replace the drive and clean install.
Have replaced HDD's on desktops and occasionally on laptops but it was
always fairly easy, just open the cover, remove old drive and fit new.
Not so easy with this Acer laptop, had to remove about 20 screws from
bottom and carefully prise up keyboard. There are 3 ribbon cables using
those ZIF connectors (KB, touchpad and one right across the back of HDD)
which have to be removed for access to HDD. Having once before damaged
one of these on a mobile phone I'm a bit wary of touching them.
Have looked at a few YT clips about working with these type of
connectors but I may take it to a local repair shop rather than risk
damage.
Why do Acer have to be so awkward, why not just a panel giving easy
access to HDD like other laptops?

Kenny

"...winston‫" wrote in message ...

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/


Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.



That's a lot of screws. On this Acer laptop, it was two screws, a cover,
and one screw to remove the HDD and its caddy and replace it with a SSD.
The HDD was present when I upgraded from 8.1 to 10 and three of the 4
post RTM/RTW cumulative upgrades (10.10586.3, 11, 14). Replaced the HDD
with the SSD(didn't use the HDD caddy which was anchored with one of the
screws) and clean installed using the Media Creation Tool create USB
media without issue though activation was not immediate..after a few
hours I checked again and the clean install was activated.
- This device is an Acer i3, almost 4 yrs old and has UEFI but not
Secure Boot.

--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience

....winston wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Thanks for the replies it's not my lucky day at all. I have here a new
500GB Samsung SSD, if the Win 10 upgrade had gone smoothly I may have
migrated to the new drive using the supplied Samsung software, if not
replace the drive and clean install.
Have replaced HDD's on desktops and occasionally on laptops but it was
always fairly easy, just open the cover, remove old drive and fit new.
Not so easy with this Acer laptop, had to remove about 20 screws from
bottom and carefully prise up keyboard. There are 3 ribbon cables using
those ZIF connectors (KB, touchpad and one right across the back of HDD)
which have to be removed for access to HDD. Having once before damaged
one of these on a mobile phone I'm a bit wary of touching them.
Have looked at a few YT clips about working with these type of
connectors but I may take it to a local repair shop rather than risk
damage.
Why do Acer have to be so awkward, why not just a panel giving easy
access to HDD like other laptops?

Kenny

"...winston wrote in message ...

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/



Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.

That's a lot of screws. On this Acer laptop, it was two screws, a cover,
and one screw to remove the HDD and its caddy and replace it with a SSD.
The HDD was present when I upgraded from 8.1 to 10 and three of the 4
post RTM/RTW cumulative upgrades (10.10586.3, 11, 14). Replaced the HDD
with the SSD(didn't use the HDD caddy which was anchored with one of the
screws) and clean installed using the Media Creation Tool create USB
media without issue though activation was not immediate..after a few
hours I checked again and the clean install was activated.
- This device is an Acer i3, almost 4 yrs old and has UEFI but not
Secure Boot.


The caddy is part of the mechanical retention system.

The SATA connector is not intended to "hold things together".
The caddy and screws are intended to hold the drive in a
fixed orientation. When you flip the laptop back over
into the normal orientation, without the caddy the SSD
drive could end up hanging down from the connector.
Something other than the connector, should hold it in place.

*******

My Acer laptop has the same convenient plastic cover and
a couple of screws. Makes it easy to pull the SATA drive
when needed. I've had the drive out a couple of times,
just because it is so easy.

As devices get thinner, some of this convenience goes
out the window.

Paul

Paul wrote:
...winston wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Thanks for the replies it's not my lucky day at all. I have here a new
500GB Samsung SSD, if the Win 10 upgrade had gone smoothly I may have
migrated to the new drive using the supplied Samsung software, if not
replace the drive and clean install.
Have replaced HDD's on desktops and occasionally on laptops but it was
always fairly easy, just open the cover, remove old drive and fit new.
Not so easy with this Acer laptop, had to remove about 20 screws from
bottom and carefully prise up keyboard. There are 3 ribbon cables using
those ZIF connectors (KB, touchpad and one right across the back of HDD)
which have to be removed for access to HDD. Having once before damaged
one of these on a mobile phone I'm a bit wary of touching them.
Have looked at a few YT clips about working with these type of
connectors but I may take it to a local repair shop rather than risk
damage.
Why do Acer have to be so awkward, why not just a panel giving easy
access to HDD like other laptops?

Kenny

"...winston wrote in message ...

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/



Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that
all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading
and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.

That's a lot of screws. On this Acer laptop, it was two screws, a
cover, and one screw to remove the HDD and its caddy and replace it
with a SSD. The HDD was present when I upgraded from 8.1 to 10 and
three of the 4 post RTM/RTW cumulative upgrades (10.10586.3, 11, 14).
Replaced the HDD with the SSD(didn't use the HDD caddy which was
anchored with one of the screws) and clean installed using the Media
Creation Tool create USB media without issue though activation was not
immediate..after a few hours I checked again and the clean install was
activated.
- This device is an Acer i3, almost 4 yrs old and has UEFI but not
Secure Boot.


The caddy is part of the mechanical retention system.

The SATA connector is not intended to "hold things together".
The caddy and screws are intended to hold the drive in a
fixed orientation. When you flip the laptop back over
into the normal orientation, without the caddy the SSD
drive could end up hanging down from the connector.
Something other than the connector, should hold it in place.

*******

My Acer laptop has the same convenient plastic cover and
a couple of screws. Makes it easy to pull the SATA drive
when needed. I've had the drive out a couple of times,
just because it is so easy.

As devices get thinner, some of this convenience goes
out the window.

Paul
Oh, I understand what the caddy is for
After almost two years not a single spare replaceable HDD or SSD
drive(so far 3 total used intermittently but rarely more than a few
weeks at a time) without the caddy has lost connectivity or created use
or connection issues. I have a spare caddy and used that for a few
years then just stopped; that caddy is still connected to a dust
collecting 2.5" HDD spinner.

Yes, as devices get thinner the flexibility and convenience disappear.

If I get 5 or more years(the 5th year will end in Jan 2016) out of this
$150 estate sale used for less than 2 months Acer i3 Laptop, 8GB,
original 500 GB spinner - I'll take the risk on the drives and device
using it without the caddy.

--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience

Found this disassembly guide after I had already done it:
http://www.myfixguide.com/manual/ace...g-disassembly/
My fear is damaging one of those ZIF connectors when removing and
reconnecting ribbon cables, it has happened before. My understanding is
that the black part should easily flip up to release the cable, I didn't
find it that simple!

Kenny

"...winston‫" wrote in message ...

Paul wrote:
...winston wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Thanks for the replies it's not my lucky day at all. I have here a new
500GB Samsung SSD, if the Win 10 upgrade had gone smoothly I may have
migrated to the new drive using the supplied Samsung software, if not
replace the drive and clean install.
Have replaced HDD's on desktops and occasionally on laptops but it was
always fairly easy, just open the cover, remove old drive and fit new.
Not so easy with this Acer laptop, had to remove about 20 screws from
bottom and carefully prise up keyboard. There are 3 ribbon cables using
those ZIF connectors (KB, touchpad and one right across the back of HDD)
which have to be removed for access to HDD. Having once before damaged
one of these on a mobile phone I'm a bit wary of touching them.
Have looked at a few YT clips about working with these type of
connectors but I may take it to a local repair shop rather than risk
damage.
Why do Acer have to be so awkward, why not just a panel giving easy
access to HDD like other laptops?

Kenny

"...winston wrote in message ...

Kenny wrote:
Upgraded Acer laptop from Win 8.1. First thing Start button didn't do
anything, used the "fix" from command prompt shown he
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/wi...ws-10-3623893/



Thought it had worked until I discovered many of my programs weren't
showing and many of the ones which did won't work from there!
Windows Live Mail doesn't show at all and I had to burrow through
Programs to find it to check my mail and post this comment.
My plan now is to try a fresh install on a blank HDD, I've downloaded a
Win 10 ISO separately, although tempted to just forget Win 10 and stick
with Win 8.1. Used Belarc Advisor to get Win 8.1 serial, is that
all I
need?
Would also add that the PC has slowed considerably since upgrading
and I
have about 20GB wasted space with Windows.old and $WINDOWS.~BT


Kenny Cargill
If Win10 is activated on that same device then a clean install on the
same device with a new HDD doesn't require a product key since the
digital entitled license for that device will be use to activate Win10
in lieu entering the prior o/s product key.

If the plan is to install Win10 on a different device than the device
used to upgrade from 8.1 to 10 then you need a valid Win10 Product key
or a different Win 8x Product key.

Fyi...the key Belarc found on the device may not useful if the 8.1 key
is an OEM key. Belarc most likely found the key that Acer was permitted
to use to burn the image on the device at the factory - your real 8.1
key is located on one of three places - the sticker on the bottom of the
machine, the documentation that came with the device or embedded in the
Acer firmware.

That's a lot of screws. On this Acer laptop, it was two screws, a
cover, and one screw to remove the HDD and its caddy and replace it
with a SSD. The HDD was present when I upgraded from 8.1 to 10 and
three of the 4 post RTM/RTW cumulative upgrades (10.10586.3, 11, 14).
Replaced the HDD with the SSD(didn't use the HDD caddy which was
anchored with one of the screws) and clean installed using the Media
Creation Tool create USB media without issue though activation was not
immediate..after a few hours I checked again and the clean install was
activated.
- This device is an Acer i3, almost 4 yrs old and has UEFI but not
Secure Boot.


The caddy is part of the mechanical retention system.

The SATA connector is not intended to "hold things together".
The caddy and screws are intended to hold the drive in a
fixed orientation. When you flip the laptop back over
into the normal orientation, without the caddy the SSD
drive could end up hanging down from the connector.
Something other than the connector, should hold it in place.

*******

My Acer laptop has the same convenient plastic cover and
a couple of screws. Makes it easy to pull the SATA drive
when needed. I've had the drive out a couple of times,
just because it is so easy.

As devices get thinner, some of this convenience goes
out the window.

Paul
Oh, I understand what the caddy is for
After almost two years not a single spare replaceable HDD or SSD
drive(so far 3 total used intermittently but rarely more than a few
weeks at a time) without the caddy has lost connectivity or created use
or connection issues. I have a spare caddy and used that for a few
years then just stopped; that caddy is still connected to a dust
collecting 2.5" HDD spinner.

Yes, as devices get thinner the flexibility and convenience disappear.

If I get 5 or more years(the 5th year will end in Jan 2016) out of this
$150 estate sale used for less than 2 months Acer i3 Laptop, 8GB,
original 500 GB spinner - I'll take the risk on the drives and device
using it without the caddy.

--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience