WinXP SP2 download

I just downloaded to my computer hard drive, a copy of WindowsXP SP2 (266mg)
from the Microsoft website. I haven't tried to install it but am about to
copy it to a CD. My WindowsXP CD (496mg) that I got with my computer is
about 2 years old. If I reformat my HD, would it better to use the later CD
I made from the download, instead of the older one?
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation

You cannot install WinXP from the SP2 download.

--
Frank Saunders, MS-MVP, IE/OE
Please respond in Newsgroup. Do not send email
http://www.fjsmjs.com
Protect your PC
http://www.microsoft.com/security/protect/


"Jack Nation" wrote in message
...
I just downloaded to my computer hard drive, a copy of WindowsXP SP2
(266mg) from the Microsoft website. I haven't tried to install it but am
about to copy it to a CD. My WindowsXP CD (496mg) that I got with my
computer is about 2 years old. If I reformat my HD, would it better to use
the later CD I made from the download, instead of the older one?
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation

Jack

What you downloaded was the SP2 service pack, the full unabridged version..
after loading XP from your original CD, you can then install SP2 from the CD
that you are about to make..

--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User


"Jack Nation" wrote in message
...
I just downloaded to my computer hard drive, a copy of WindowsXP SP2
(266mg) from the Microsoft website. I haven't tried to install it but am
about to copy it to a CD. My WindowsXP CD (496mg) that I got with my
computer is about 2 years old. If I reformat my HD, would it better to use
the later CD I made from the download, instead of the older one?
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation

Thanks for your help Frank & Mike.
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation


"Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote in message
...
Jack

What you downloaded was the SP2 service pack, the full unabridged
version.. after loading XP from your original CD, you can then install SP2
from the CD that you are about to make..

--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User


"Jack Nation" wrote in message
...
I just downloaded to my computer hard drive, a copy of WindowsXP SP2
(266mg) from the Microsoft website. I haven't tried to install it but am
about to copy it to a CD. My WindowsXP CD (496mg) that I got with my
computer is about 2 years old. If I reformat my HD, would it better to
use the later CD I made from the download, instead of the older one?
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation

Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download. It is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp


"Jack Nation" wrote in message
...
I just downloaded to my computer hard drive, a copy of WindowsXP SP2
(266mg)
from the Microsoft website. I haven't tried to install it but am about to
copy it to a CD. My WindowsXP CD (496mg) that I got with my computer is
about 2 years old. If I reformat my HD, would it better to use the later
CD
I made from the download, instead of the older one?
--
Sincerely,
Jack Nation

"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download. It
is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs? I have
several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

~ FreeSpirit ~ wrote:


"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download.
It is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs? I
have several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

It depends on what the OEM has given you. Check with HP's tech support.
If you have only a restore image, you can't slipstream it. Sometimes
you can slipstream using the i386 folder on the hard drive if the OEM
set it up that way. Otherwise, you are SOL. You can check out the links
that the following Google search produced for possibilities:

http://www.google.com/search?q=slips...arch&hl=en&lr=

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

This is a constant source of frustration for me, and I'm wondering (hoping)
if someone has a suggestion that is straight forward that I can use. I
continually find myself in this situation: I'm "the computer guy" to my
friends and family, although, I'm just a lowly a Access Application Analyst
with very little experience with Windows configuration... Until I got on Cox
Highspeed internet, and descovered quickly that I don't know squat about my
hardware and software environment and find my self increasingly baried in
help files trying to figure things out. So I get the call from one of my
friends who can't get on the internet to run their business or whatever, or
they can't boot up. So I go there and find all kinds of problems... Way too
much software, spyware infestation, viruses, myriad problems that I've spent
countless days nights weekends endlessly searching for answers that never
seem to come easy enough... So in these situations, when it't "THAT BAD" I
suggest a clean install, as I've done this many times and it used to go
smoothly, until XP and Automatic Updates. Now it seems every time I try to
run the setup from the OEM disk or whatever they have, I end up in a loop of
error messages asking for a disk the PC owner never had, because the file
being looked for was installed by an update. "Fatal Error! Setup can not
continue. Please insert the Window XP SP1 CD to coninue setup." but there is
no service pack 1, the files may be on the disk, but I don't know where, and
at this juncture, setup seems to have gone to the point of no return, as it
just keeps looping back to the setup program and to the same error... The big
problem, and excruciatingly time consuming, is that these users have one
household PC, it isn't operational, and they are completly helpless... So I
go home, get on the MS Sites and start trying to find help. I go to the
manufacturers sites and try to find help. But it always expends massive
amounts of time, as no one seems to have a Service Pack 1 (or whatever it is
being asked for at the moment) and Microsoft tells me I have to go to the
manufacturer for help. Isn't there a license friendly solution for me to help
my friends (like I want to make a CD or two that contains the various Service
Packs) but unless I am missinformed, I'm not allowed to do this because of
license issues or complience validation or something... Sorry for being so
wordy, but I'm going through this nightmare again, and I'm just kinda
frustrated... don't mean to vent, I just keep thinking, Microsoft put the
file on there, why can't I get the file I need from microsoft, so everyone
can go about there business and be happy :-)
Much Thanks in advance
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks…


"Malke" wrote:

~ FreeSpirit ~ wrote:


"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download.
It is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs? I
have several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

It depends on what the OEM has given you. Check with HP's tech support.
If you have only a restore image, you can't slipstream it. Sometimes
you can slipstream using the i386 folder on the hard drive if the OEM
set it up that way. Otherwise, you are SOL. You can check out the links
that the following Google search produced for possibilities:

http://www.google.com/search?q=slips...arch&hl=en&lr=

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

Here are some solutions that I use. (I've number them to keep them separated
not order of preference)
1) You can legally download full versions of the Service packs from
Microsoft and burn them to CD. It is totally acceptable to transfer these to
other computers
SP1a click "Go" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...1/network.mspx
SP2 click "Download" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

2) Create a Bart's PE CD. This is a excellent tool as it is an operating
system that runs entirely off the CD and, if you install the correct
plug-ins, it gives you the ability to go online and download drivers and
find help information, etc or gain access to a network. My version of Bart's
PE contains Nero, Ghost 8, Firefox, Stinger, Keyfinder-pe, IrfranView,
Ad-Aware, WinZip, as well as a number of other handy tools such as password
crackers and file recovery tools. The learning curve isn't even that steep
and once you have one of these you'll wonder what you did without it.
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

3) While it is true that you cannot use your Product Key to install Windows
on other computers you can still create a slipstream version of XP using
your disc providing that when you install it on another system you use that
person's Product Key. However be aware that Product Keys are version
specific. XP Home keys won't work with XP Pro. Nor will XP Home or XP Pro
"Retail keys" work on XP Home or XP Pro "OEM" versions. Still if you have
friends who call on you often you can legally use their XP CD and a Service
Pack to create a slipstream version for them to keep with their system in
the event you need to help them. Slipstream instructions found here
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm

4) Create a CD with commonly used Anti-spyware apps. The essentials are
found here http://aumha.org/a/parasite.htm Just keep them up-to-date

5) If you are in the habit of helping friends and family start charging a
small fee. It doesn't have to be exorbitant. This encourages people to be
more responsible and helps you to offset the cost of travel and wear and
tear on your resources.
--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp


"Rev" .(OrSomeThingLikeThat ) wrote in message
...
This is a constant source of frustration for me, and I'm wondering
(hoping)
if someone has a suggestion that is straight forward that I can use. I
continually find myself in this situation: I'm "the computer guy" to my
friends and family, although, I'm just a lowly a Access Application
Analyst
with very little experience with Windows configuration... Until I got on
Cox
Highspeed internet, and descovered quickly that I don't know squat about
my
hardware and software environment and find my self increasingly baried in
help files trying to figure things out. So I get the call from one of my
friends who can't get on the internet to run their business or whatever,
or
they can't boot up. So I go there and find all kinds of problems... Way
too
much software, spyware infestation, viruses, myriad problems that I've
spent
countless days nights weekends endlessly searching for answers that never
seem to come easy enough... So in these situations, when it't "THAT BAD" I
suggest a clean install, as I've done this many times and it used to go
smoothly, until XP and Automatic Updates. Now it seems every time I try to
run the setup from the OEM disk or whatever they have, I end up in a loop
of
error messages asking for a disk the PC owner never had, because the file
being looked for was installed by an update. "Fatal Error! Setup can not
continue. Please insert the Window XP SP1 CD to coninue setup." but there
is
no service pack 1, the files may be on the disk, but I don't know where,
and
at this juncture, setup seems to have gone to the point of no return, as
it
just keeps looping back to the setup program and to the same error... The
big
problem, and excruciatingly time consuming, is that these users have one
household PC, it isn't operational, and they are completly helpless... So
I
go home, get on the MS Sites and start trying to find help. I go to the
manufacturers sites and try to find help. But it always expends massive
amounts of time, as no one seems to have a Service Pack 1 (or whatever it
is
being asked for at the moment) and Microsoft tells me I have to go to the
manufacturer for help. Isn't there a license friendly solution for me to
help
my friends (like I want to make a CD or two that contains the various
Service
Packs) but unless I am missinformed, I'm not allowed to do this because of
license issues or complience validation or something... Sorry for being so
wordy, but I'm going through this nightmare again, and I'm just kinda
frustrated... don't mean to vent, I just keep thinking, Microsoft put the
file on there, why can't I get the file I need from microsoft, so everyone
can go about there business and be happy :-)
Much Thanks in advance
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks.


"Malke" wrote:

~ FreeSpirit ~ wrote:


"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download.
It is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs? I
have several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

It depends on what the OEM has given you. Check with HP's tech support.
If you have only a restore image, you can't slipstream it. Sometimes
you can slipstream using the i386 folder on the hard drive if the OEM
set it up that way. Otherwise, you are SOL. You can check out the links
that the following Google search produced for possibilities:

http://www.google.com/search?q=slips...arch&hl=en&lr=

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Thanks Harry for your time and consideration
I will definately follow your instructions today. With respect to two of you
comments. A. I won't have to wonder what I ever did without it. This little
project is my third painful experience "without it" That helpless feeling
lasts at least a couple months till new tools or successes provide the
rebound... B. So far as charging a nominal fee, that is surely good advice. I
bought MSDN Universal and I'm trying very hard to elevate to a higher plain
of competence, so I can charge some real money... I ask for "whatever you can
give me" or $50. I also provide a receipt which lists all of the things I did
and the associated charges, and call it at limited time "Business Startup"
offer. I think I can account this to marketing and right some of that time
expense off as "Discounts." I'm not sure...
Thanks again Harry! I'm gonna start working on this right now.
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks…


"Harry Ohrn" wrote:

Here are some solutions that I use. (I've number them to keep them separated
not order of preference)
1) You can legally download full versions of the Service packs from
Microsoft and burn them to CD. It is totally acceptable to transfer these to
other computers
SP1a click "Go" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...1/network.mspx
SP2 click "Download" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

2) Create a Bart's PE CD. This is a excellent tool as it is an operating
system that runs entirely off the CD and, if you install the correct
plug-ins, it gives you the ability to go online and download drivers and
find help information, etc or gain access to a network. My version of Bart's
PE contains Nero, Ghost 8, Firefox, Stinger, Keyfinder-pe, IrfranView,
Ad-Aware, WinZip, as well as a number of other handy tools such as password
crackers and file recovery tools. The learning curve isn't even that steep
and once you have one of these you'll wonder what you did without it.
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

3) While it is true that you cannot use your Product Key to install Windows
on other computers you can still create a slipstream version of XP using
your disc providing that when you install it on another system you use that
person's Product Key. However be aware that Product Keys are version
specific. XP Home keys won't work with XP Pro. Nor will XP Home or XP Pro
"Retail keys" work on XP Home or XP Pro "OEM" versions. Still if you have
friends who call on you often you can legally use their XP CD and a Service
Pack to create a slipstream version for them to keep with their system in
the event you need to help them. Slipstream instructions found here
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm

4) Create a CD with commonly used Anti-spyware apps. The essentials are
found here http://aumha.org/a/parasite.htm Just keep them up-to-date

5) If you are in the habit of helping friends and family start charging a
small fee. It doesn't have to be exorbitant. This encourages people to be
more responsible and helps you to offset the cost of travel and wear and
tear on your resources.
--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp


"Rev" .(OrSomeThingLikeThat ) wrote in message
...
This is a constant source of frustration for me, and I'm wondering
(hoping)
if someone has a suggestion that is straight forward that I can use. I
continually find myself in this situation: I'm "the computer guy" to my
friends and family, although, I'm just a lowly a Access Application
Analyst
with very little experience with Windows configuration... Until I got on
Cox
Highspeed internet, and descovered quickly that I don't know squat about
my
hardware and software environment and find my self increasingly baried in
help files trying to figure things out. So I get the call from one of my
friends who can't get on the internet to run their business or whatever,
or
they can't boot up. So I go there and find all kinds of problems... Way
too
much software, spyware infestation, viruses, myriad problems that I've
spent
countless days nights weekends endlessly searching for answers that never
seem to come easy enough... So in these situations, when it't "THAT BAD" I
suggest a clean install, as I've done this many times and it used to go
smoothly, until XP and Automatic Updates. Now it seems every time I try to
run the setup from the OEM disk or whatever they have, I end up in a loop
of
error messages asking for a disk the PC owner never had, because the file
being looked for was installed by an update. "Fatal Error! Setup can not
continue. Please insert the Window XP SP1 CD to coninue setup." but there
is
no service pack 1, the files may be on the disk, but I don't know where,
and
at this juncture, setup seems to have gone to the point of no return, as
it
just keeps looping back to the setup program and to the same error... The
big
problem, and excruciatingly time consuming, is that these users have one
household PC, it isn't operational, and they are completly helpless... So
I
go home, get on the MS Sites and start trying to find help. I go to the
manufacturers sites and try to find help. But it always expends massive
amounts of time, as no one seems to have a Service Pack 1 (or whatever it
is
being asked for at the moment) and Microsoft tells me I have to go to the
manufacturer for help. Isn't there a license friendly solution for me to
help
my friends (like I want to make a CD or two that contains the various
Service
Packs) but unless I am missinformed, I'm not allowed to do this because of
license issues or complience validation or something... Sorry for being so
wordy, but I'm going through this nightmare again, and I'm just kinda
frustrated... don't mean to vent, I just keep thinking, Microsoft put the
file on there, why can't I get the file I need from microsoft, so everyone
can go about there business and be happy :-)
Much Thanks in advance
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks.


"Malke" wrote:

~ FreeSpirit ~ wrote:


"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2 download.
It is
easy to do - see here http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs? I
have several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

It depends on what the OEM has given you. Check with HP's tech support.
If you have only a restore image, you can't slipstream it. Sometimes
you can slipstream using the i386 folder on the hard drive if the OEM
set it up that way. Otherwise, you are SOL. You can check out the links
that the following Google search produced for possibilities:

http://www.google.com/search?q=slips...arch&hl=en&lr=

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

Good luck on your business endeavour. Right now is a good time to make money
on spyware removal and system cleanups. I have a 200 GB drive in a USB hard
drive enclosure. I create a full system backup of a clients' system with it
using Ghost 8. Then I can work on their system to my heart's content. Once I
get it cleaned I create a final image and burn to CD or DVD which I give to
the client. If I need to get them back to the clean date I can do that.

--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp


"Rev" .(OrSomeThingLikeThat ) wrote in message
...
Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Thanks Harry for your time and consideration
I will definately follow your instructions today. With respect to two of
you
comments. A. I won't have to wonder what I ever did without it. This
little
project is my third painful experience "without it" That helpless feeling
lasts at least a couple months till new tools or successes provide the
rebound... B. So far as charging a nominal fee, that is surely good
advice. I
bought MSDN Universal and I'm trying very hard to elevate to a higher
plain
of competence, so I can charge some real money... I ask for "whatever you
can
give me" or $50. I also provide a receipt which lists all of the things I
did
and the associated charges, and call it at limited time "Business Startup"
offer. I think I can account this to marketing and right some of that time
expense off as "Discounts." I'm not sure...
Thanks again Harry! I'm gonna start working on this right now.
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks.


"Harry Ohrn" wrote:

Here are some solutions that I use. (I've number them to keep them
separated
not order of preference)
1) You can legally download full versions of the Service packs from
Microsoft and burn them to CD. It is totally acceptable to transfer these
to
other computers
SP1a click "Go" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...1/network.mspx
SP2 click "Download" button here
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

2) Create a Bart's PE CD. This is a excellent tool as it is an operating
system that runs entirely off the CD and, if you install the correct
plug-ins, it gives you the ability to go online and download drivers and
find help information, etc or gain access to a network. My version of
Bart's
PE contains Nero, Ghost 8, Firefox, Stinger, Keyfinder-pe, IrfranView,
Ad-Aware, WinZip, as well as a number of other handy tools such as
password
crackers and file recovery tools. The learning curve isn't even that
steep
and once you have one of these you'll wonder what you did without it.
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

3) While it is true that you cannot use your Product Key to install
Windows
on other computers you can still create a slipstream version of XP using
your disc providing that when you install it on another system you use
that
person's Product Key. However be aware that Product Keys are version
specific. XP Home keys won't work with XP Pro. Nor will XP Home or XP Pro
"Retail keys" work on XP Home or XP Pro "OEM" versions. Still if you have
friends who call on you often you can legally use their XP CD and a
Service
Pack to create a slipstream version for them to keep with their system in
the event you need to help them. Slipstream instructions found here
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm

4) Create a CD with commonly used Anti-spyware apps. The essentials are
found here http://aumha.org/a/parasite.htm Just keep them up-to-date

5) If you are in the habit of helping friends and family start charging a
small fee. It doesn't have to be exorbitant. This encourages people to be
more responsible and helps you to offset the cost of travel and wear and
tear on your resources.
--

Harry Ohrn MS-MVP [Shell/User]
www.webtree.ca/windowsxp


"Rev" .(OrSomeThingLikeThat ) wrote in message
...
This is a constant source of frustration for me, and I'm wondering
(hoping)
if someone has a suggestion that is straight forward that I can use. I
continually find myself in this situation: I'm "the computer guy" to my
friends and family, although, I'm just a lowly a Access Application
Analyst
with very little experience with Windows configuration... Until I got
on
Cox
Highspeed internet, and descovered quickly that I don't know squat
about
my
hardware and software environment and find my self increasingly baried
in
help files trying to figure things out. So I get the call from one of
my
friends who can't get on the internet to run their business or
whatever,
or
they can't boot up. So I go there and find all kinds of problems... Way
too
much software, spyware infestation, viruses, myriad problems that I've
spent
countless days nights weekends endlessly searching for answers that
never
seem to come easy enough... So in these situations, when it't "THAT
BAD" I
suggest a clean install, as I've done this many times and it used to go
smoothly, until XP and Automatic Updates. Now it seems every time I try
to
run the setup from the OEM disk or whatever they have, I end up in a
loop
of
error messages asking for a disk the PC owner never had, because the
file
being looked for was installed by an update. "Fatal Error! Setup can
not
continue. Please insert the Window XP SP1 CD to coninue setup." but
there
is
no service pack 1, the files may be on the disk, but I don't know
where,
and
at this juncture, setup seems to have gone to the point of no return,
as
it
just keeps looping back to the setup program and to the same error...
The
big
problem, and excruciatingly time consuming, is that these users have
one
household PC, it isn't operational, and they are completly helpless...
So
I
go home, get on the MS Sites and start trying to find help. I go to the
manufacturers sites and try to find help. But it always expends massive
amounts of time, as no one seems to have a Service Pack 1 (or whatever
it
is
being asked for at the moment) and Microsoft tells me I have to go to
the
manufacturer for help. Isn't there a license friendly solution for me
to
help
my friends (like I want to make a CD or two that contains the various
Service
Packs) but unless I am missinformed, I'm not allowed to do this because
of
license issues or complience validation or something... Sorry for being
so
wordy, but I'm going through this nightmare again, and I'm just kinda
frustrated... don't mean to vent, I just keep thinking, Microsoft put
the
file on there, why can't I get the file I need from microsoft, so
everyone
can go about there business and be happy :-)
Much Thanks in advance
--
Everything in EXCESS!!! If you want to taste the flavor of LIFE, Take
BIG
Bytes. Moderation is for monks.


"Malke" wrote:

~ FreeSpirit ~ wrote:


"Harry Ohrn" wrote in message
...
Create a slipstream CD using your Windows XP CD and the SP2
download.
It is
easy to do - see here
http://www.webtree.ca/windowsxp/slipstream.htm
===================
What about those of us who don't get the XP-CD when we buy our PCs?
I
have several CDs to reinstall WXP from HP.

FS~

It depends on what the OEM has given you. Check with HP's tech
support.
If you have only a restore image, you can't slipstream it. Sometimes
you can slipstream using the i386 folder on the hard drive if the OEM
set it up that way. Otherwise, you are SOL. You can check out the
links
that the following Google search produced for possibilities:

http://www.google.com/search?q=slips...arch&hl=en&lr=

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"