BillW50

On 3/6/2014 6:39 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Alek Trishan wrote:

On 3/6/2014 4:22 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Adam Kubias wrote:

If the point of communication is to get information across, and the tone
of posts causes people to rebel against the information, why bother
writing anything at all Bill?

Depends on whether you feel compelled to coddle other users while
dispensing information to them. ... They're getting FREE help from
unpaid volunteers from a worldwide community which means they will
experience a wide range of persona.

Isn't there a difference between coddling and just being polite? Why
should anyone who is helping be abrasive? That's the antithesis of being
helpful!

I've found being neutral in a reply can offend others who think I'm
supposed to placate their ego. Say you tell them a product won't do
what they want. It's a fact. They get perturbed at you for telling
them.

So ignore them. Nothing you say will change them, so you're better off
ignoringthem.

If a user is spamming, yes, I'll be abrasive in telling them not to
spam, like adding a signature regarding their choice of anti-virus
software or whose Usenet service they use. I'm not going to pretend I'm
blind to their spam.

As if anything you said would do more than just encourage them to
continue to spam!

Then there are the folks that think there is a magic bullet that with a
simple mouse click will fix their problem. When you ask them to try
safe mode in IE or Windows or Thunderbird or to do other diagnostics,
they aren't interested in actually solving the problem so you wonder why
they chose to waste your time. So, yes, for those infant tuggers not
willing to actually work on the problem then they'll get a retort for
being so lazy. Changing a tire on a wheel is easy but it can require
some effort.

So just ignore them Nothing you say will cause them to behave differently.

No one is getting paid here so just what is the impetus that they have
to be polite (which usually means coddling to salve their ego)?

I cannot believe an adult person wrote that! If you don't know why a
person should be polite, then I think you were shortchanged growing up!

They
aren't paying anyone for the help. They're not a customer so "the
customer is always right" has no basis here. Have YOU ever found
EVERYONE at a helpdesk, IT folks, support center, or wherever you seek
help to sugar coat a solution?

Being polite is not sugar-coating!

And that's representing a very small
group of paid helpers. Usenet is free help. Usenet is a worldwide mesh
network so personalities of all types appear here. And Usenet is an
anarchy where you don't get to dictate to anyone. Some chaff must be
expected in Usenet; else, use moderated forums for a more cuddly
experience.

I often wonder what grouchy people get out of being disagreeable.

On 3/7/2014 1:39 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:56:43 -0600, CRNG
wrote:

[snip]

Those are very good points. I was always taught that "..there is no
excuse for rudeness.."

There is occasionally a good reason for rudeness, but it is
*much* less often than most think.

:-) I'm rude only to telephone solicitors. I got a call from "Technical
Support" telling me there was a problem with my computer. I said, "I
don't have a computer!" After about 5 seconds, he hung up. :-)

Roderick Stewart wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

I've found being neutral in a reply can offend others who think I'm
supposed to placate their ego. Say you tell them a product won't do
what they want. It's a fact. They get perturbed at you for telling
them.

You've either worked in a tech support call centre, or been married.
I can tell. :-)

Nope, you can't tell. The experience I mentioned here is from
inhabiting Usenet for over a decade.

I've not had to be a call or support center tech. I've had coworkers
(call center, field support, etc) that I've helped to resolve a problem.
Since I've worked for software development and computer companies, the
callers are far more educated, professional, and less detached
personally from the problem. The caller is another tech, programmer,
developer, or professional as a representative of a company that is the
customer of our product. Helping those call center workers was a joy
even for extremely hard problems compared to the ethos experienced here
in Usenet.

Sorry but I'm not sure how marriage would affect by perception of
posters in Usenet accrued over a decade of experience here. Doesn't
seem a germane issue but maybe it wasn't meant to be, like it was
supposed to be some of that chaff mentioned as encountered here. Just
consider it as "whoosh, went over his head" for me.

CRNG wrote:

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:39:25 -0800, Gene Wirchenko
wrote in

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:56:43 -0600, CRNG
wrote:

[snip]

Those are very good points. I was always taught that "..there is no
excuse for rudeness.."

There is occasionally a good reason for rudeness, but it is
*much* less often than most think.

I can't think of a good reason. Perhaps a person being rude to you??
But being rude back seems counterproductive.

Regards,
CG

You mean like someone (Zaky Waky) starting an entire thread oriented to
flame another poster? Luckily Bill grew weary quickly and left the
thread leaving the rest of us to argue about politeness expressed in an
anarchist population called Usenet.

On 07/03/2014 4:39 PM, Alek Trishan wrote:
On 3/7/2014 1:39 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 07:56:43 -0600, CRNG
wrote:

[snip]

Those are very good points. I was always taught that "..there is no
excuse for rudeness.."

There is occasionally a good reason for rudeness, but it is
*much* less often than most think.

:-) I'm rude only to telephone solicitors. I got a call from "Technical
Support" telling me there was a problem with my computer. I said, "I
don't have a computer!" After about 5 seconds, he hung up. :-)

They called my wife once but never bothered with me. I would have loved
for them to do it to me. I absolutely love yanking the chain of such ****s.

--
Silver Slimer
Wikipedia Supporter
GNU/Linux advocates: http://abstrusegoose.com/558

On 3/07/2014, Monty posted:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 11:42:10 -0800, Gene E. Bloch
wrote:

On 3/06/2014, Monty posted:
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 14:50:15 +1100, Monty
wrote:
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 17:39:11 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Alek Trishan wrote:

If a user is spamming, yes, I'll be abrasive in telling them not
to spam, like adding a signature regarding their choice of
anti-virus software

It may not be the user sending out that spam; Avast does it for
you at no charge! following a recent update. It is on my to do
list to kill that signature.

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com


If the avast! message does not now appear below this reply, then
the following chain of actions was responsible for its removal:
From the avastUI Settings Active Protection Mail Shield
Settings (wrench iconl) Behavior - General section "Uncheck"
Insert note into clean message (outgoing)

When you said that was on your to-do list, I thought "Why not just
do it!"

My to-do list is also my escape path when I forget to do something
:-)

Kind of like my life-long scheme of writing reminders on the 3x5" cards
I keep in my shirt pocket.

They are pretty much the legendary write-only memory...

Seems like you're a mind reader ;-)

You did good work.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Silver Slimer wrote:

They called my wife once but never bothered with me. I would have loved
for them to do it to me. I absolutely love yanking the chain of such ****s.

I wish I could do something like this extemporaneously to get back at a
telephone solicitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkdoogjic4I

I either interrrupt and mute them them and put the phone aside so
they're hanging on the line getting nuisanced like they nuisanced me, or
I keep saying "Hello" or "Anyone there" while they're talking to pretend
I can't hear them but I wait until they start to get up to speed in
their script for when to interrupt.

I have a buddy that has a script ready so while the telemarketer is
talking he interrupts with "Yes, that sounds interesting and I'd like to
know more but I'd like to ask you something. Have you heard about the
power of Jesus?" The telemarketer tries to get back to his script but
my buddy just keeps responding with canned statements about Jesus Saves,
salvation through Jesus, and so on. He promises to send a bible so asks
for a postal mailing address. Eventually they just hang up on him. Of
course, that means not having anything else to do at the time and
wanting to "play" the telemarketer. To be honest, I think he got the
idea from some comediaine's skit.

On 07/03/2014 7:51 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

I have a buddy that has a script ready so while the telemarketer is
talking he interrupts with "Yes, that sounds interesting and I'd like to
know more but I'd like to ask you something. Have you heard about the
power of Jesus?" The telemarketer tries to get back to his script but
my buddy just keeps responding with canned statements about Jesus Saves,
salvation through Jesus, and so on. He promises to send a bible so asks
for a postal mailing address. Eventually they just hang up on him. Of
course, that means not having anything else to do at the time and
wanting to "play" the telemarketer. To be honest, I think he got the
idea from some comediaine's skit.

My wife and I both got a real laugh out of that idea. Spamming them with
messages about Jesus sounds wonderful. I can't help but really wish I
could do that to them.

--
Silver Slimer
Wikipedia Supporter
GNU/Linux advocates: http://abstrusegoose.com/558

Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-03-07 8:32 PM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On 07/03/2014 7:51 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

I have a buddy that has a script ready so while the telemarketer is
talking he interrupts with "Yes, that sounds interesting and I'd like to
know more but I'd like to ask you something. Have you heard about the
power of Jesus?" The telemarketer tries to get back to his script but
my buddy just keeps responding with canned statements about Jesus Saves,
salvation through Jesus, and so on. He promises to send a bible so asks
for a postal mailing address. Eventually they just hang up on him. Of
course, that means not having anything else to do at the time and
wanting to "play" the telemarketer. To be honest, I think he got the
idea from some comediaine's skit.

My wife and I both got a real laugh out of that idea. Spamming them with
messages about Jesus sounds wonderful. I can't help but really wish I
could do that to them.

Well, my son worked as a telemarketer in the 80s. Annoying a
telemarketer may make you feel better, but (s)he's just trying to make a
living.

So are spammers, credit card scammers, and car thieves. That's not an
excuse for amoral behavior. No, your son was not nearly as bad as this
but lesser bad is also not an excuse. Banks are also just trying to
make a living by mortgage foreclosures. That's doesn't make them the
good guy.

Users (on the receiving end) tend to be hypercritical of spammers and
telemarketers because of the style of contact. Those companies know
you'll immediately toss their mailed postcard as you walk from the
postbox back to your house while passing the trash cart.

So is you son still working as a telemarketer after all these years?
Didn't think so. Eventually he'd wanted respect for his efforts. I'm
sure you understand what kind of telemarketers we're talking about here.
They use automatic dialers that will retain you on their calling list if
you don't get past their robot message to get connected to a real
person. They don't call at all times of the day but prefer those times
they know callees are likely to be at the number they dial, like at
home. They are peddling something the user doesn't need or confuse the
callee as to what is being sold, like claiming they are the National
Credit Foundation hoping callees think they are a true gov't resource,
like citizens thinking the Federal Reserve is part of the gov't instead
of a world bank. Anyone buying from these type of telemarketers are
exascerbating the problem instead of fighting it, just like anyone that
buys from a spammer is abetting the spam problem.

There are professional telemarketers that have expenses to collect data
lists of callees in the areas of interest for their product. They
aren't cold calling unknown callees. The pros target their audience and
contact in a way that is more of an introduction than an invasion.
Those aren't the types we're talking about here.

You are not punishing the company they work for, nor the clients
that have contracted them to do the marketing job.

The more time they have to waste on you (who are a non-buyer) then the
less time they spend harassing someone else. They can call only so many
people per day and the call time is variable. So variate the call
length to maximum without consequence.

Again, that someone is getting paid for employment as a telemarketer
doesn't obviate their responsibility for their own actions. The one who
contracts the "service" is at fault. The one that facilitates the
"service" is also at fault. "It's my job" is not an excuse. It's just
a reason for qualification (i.e., rationalization by pointing the finger
elsewhere).

The ones that get me are the scammers and phishers and evil geniuses
trying to scare money out of doting grandparents and such. Those I have
nor qualms about messing with.

Versus the more bland scams that your PC is slow and you just must buy
their magic software and so prey on the less educated computer users.
Or those callers claiming they'll be in your neighborhood laying a
driveway and you can get a discount on the tar or cement load (but
you'll notice no one in your neighborhood is getting or gets a new
driveway). Or those trying to sell credit card protection while
pretending to be affiliated with your credit card issuer but are not.

The telemarketers are always uninvited. They confuse the truth. They
don't call to leave messages on your answering machine but at times when
you'll be eating. They know nothing about the product outside of the
canned scripts they've been given so they're boobs pushing an unknown
product.

Recently, a tech person "from Microsoft" told me I had a problem with my
commuter. I kept telling him I had three computers (true at the time),
and was anxious to fix the problem, but I didn't know which computer he
was talking about, so could he please tell me? Unfortunately, I kept him
on the line only a couple of minutes.

Well, that's just another telemarketer pretending they know your
computer is infected, run through some scripts, like having you look at
the Event Viewer and filter by errors to see all of them, and eventually
want your credit card number to fix those problems. That's the type of
telemarketers we're talking about here. You didn't say what your son
sold over the phone, when he called, if his calling list was purchased
from a reputable information source to know the callees were in his
target audience, or what was his spiel.

Not all are bad. Some callers aren't telemarketers but surveyors. Had
a call from a gal who was very upfront about identifying herself, her
work, and who she worked for, where she lives by state and city
(something rare few telemarketers will identify). Of course, she could
be lying but nothing in her spiel was to get me to buy anything. She
was checking only if I was getting the coupons (ad pages) in my Sunday
paper to which I subscribed. After saying Yes, she didn't go on to sell
me anything. Her job was to survey the satisfaction of the local
paper's distribution and content. Because she mentioned she was in
Florida, I commented on how much warmer she has it over me with 23
below. I get calls from charities for curb pickup of old but usable
clothing. They are uninivited calls but acceptable calls.

Wow! a thread centered on BillW50 about civility, rudeness and
abrasiveness. Interesting where the "flow" moves the thread.

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:12:40 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Wolf K wrote:


Well, my son worked as a telemarketer in the 80s. Annoying a
telemarketer may make you feel better, but (s)he's just trying to make a
living.

So are spammers, credit card scammers, and car thieves. That's not an
excuse for amoral behavior. No, your son was not nearly as bad as this
but lesser bad is also not an excuse. Banks are also just trying to
make a living by mortgage foreclosures. That's doesn't make them the
good guy.


I have two stories about telemarketers calling me:

1. Telemarketer: Congratulations, you have won a set of steak knives!

Me: That's great! I can use a set of steak knives.

Telemarketer: When do you want the man to come?

Me: What man?

Telemarketer: The man to tell you about the Kirby.

Me: What's a Kirby?

Telemarketer: It's a vacuum cleaner

Me: I don't want a vacuum cleaner. Just send the steak knives.

Telemarketer: No, he'll bring them when he comes to tell you about
the Kirby

Me: No, I don't want to see him, just send my steak knives

Telemarketer: I can't do that You can't have them unless he brings
them to you.

Me: SEND THEM! They're MY steak knives. I won them FAIR AND
SQUARE.

Telemarketer: Goodbye


2. Telemarketer: I called to tell you about the life insurance you
asked about.

Me: What life insurance? I never asked about life insurance.

Telemarketer: Didn't you send back the form we mailed you?

Me: What form? No, I never do that.

Telemarketer: Aren't you the 80-year-old lion tamer?

Me: Oh. That form. Do you people really sell life insurance to
80-year-old lion tamers?

Telemarketer: Well, they need life insurance too.

Me: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ........


As you might guess, I hate telemarketers.

Hi, Ken.

I always liked the story of the guy who just hands the phone to his
3-year-old daughter and lets her talk to the telemarketer. ;)

Trouble is, these days, so many are taped Robocalls and there's no way to
talk back. :(

I used to "Press 1" at the earliest opportunity to speak to a person - who
was eager to give the pitch to the "Live One" on the line, until I
immediately interrupted and insisted they "put me on the Do Not Call list".
But now, many are getting wise to that trick, too. It's not always clear
whether they have me playing WhackAMole or cat'n'mouse.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3522.0110) in Win8.1 Pro with Media
Center


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:12:40 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Wolf K wrote:

Well, my son worked as a telemarketer in the 80s. Annoying a
telemarketer may make you feel better, but (s)he's just trying to make a
living.

So are spammers, credit card scammers, and car thieves. That's not an
excuse for amoral behavior. No, your son was not nearly as bad as this
but lesser bad is also not an excuse. Banks are also just trying to
make a living by mortgage foreclosures. That's doesn't make them the
good guy.


I have two stories about telemarketers calling me:

1. Telemarketer: Congratulations, you have won a set of steak knives!

Me: That's great! I can use a set of steak knives.

Telemarketer: When do you want the man to come?

Me: What man?

Telemarketer: The man to tell you about the Kirby.

Me: What's a Kirby?

Telemarketer: It's a vacuum cleaner

Me: I don't want a vacuum cleaner. Just send the steak knives.

Telemarketer: No, he'll bring them when he comes to tell you about
the Kirby

Me: No, I don't want to see him, just send my steak knives

Telemarketer: I can't do that You can't have them unless he brings
them to you.

Me: SEND THEM! They're MY steak knives. I won them FAIR AND
SQUARE.

Telemarketer: Goodbye


2. Telemarketer: I called to tell you about the life insurance you
asked about.

Me: What life insurance? I never asked about life insurance.

Telemarketer: Didn't you send back the form we mailed you?

Me: What form? No, I never do that.

Telemarketer: Aren't you the 80-year-old lion tamer?

Me: Oh. That form. Do you people really sell life insurance to
80-year-old lion tamers?

Telemarketer: Well, they need life insurance too.

Me: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ........


As you might guess, I hate telemarketers.

I've got caller ID so manage to avoid most such calls but still find
even the phone ringing to be annoying. I decided to take one from Card
Services yesterday just to see what would happen.
I told them I did not want anything to do with them and to stop calling.
The guy just said," Good luck with that" and hung up.

Since they always use a different number, to block them on my AT&T
landline would be futile.


I signed up here


http://www.nomorobo.com/


That was 24 hours ago and I did get one unwanted call (just now), but it
looks like it's helping as I usually get at least three in any 24 hour
period.


If they do nothing more than block "Card Services" I'll be happy.

On Sat, 8 Mar 2014 10:59:07 -0600, "R. C. White"
wrote:

Hi, Ken.

I always liked the story of the guy who just hands the phone to his
3-year-old daughter and lets her talk to the telemarketer. ;)


g


Trouble is, these days, so many are taped Robocalls and there's no way to
talk back. :(


Alas, that's true.



I used to "Press 1" at the earliest opportunity to speak to a person - who
was eager to give the pitch to the "Live One" on the line, until I
immediately interrupted and insisted they "put me on the Do Not Call list".
But now, many are getting wise to that trick, too. It's not always clear
whether they have me playing WhackAMole or cat'n'mouse.

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX

Microsoft Windows MVP (2002-2010)
Windows Live Mail 2012 (Build 16.4.3522.0110) in Win8.1 Pro with Media
Center


"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:12:40 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Wolf K wrote:

Well, my son worked as a telemarketer in the 80s. Annoying a
telemarketer may make you feel better, but (s)he's just trying to make a
living.

So are spammers, credit card scammers, and car thieves. That's not an
excuse for amoral behavior. No, your son was not nearly as bad as this
but lesser bad is also not an excuse. Banks are also just trying to
make a living by mortgage foreclosures. That's doesn't make them the
good guy.


I have two stories about telemarketers calling me:

1. Telemarketer: Congratulations, you have won a set of steak knives!

Me: That's great! I can use a set of steak knives.

Telemarketer: When do you want the man to come?

Me: What man?

Telemarketer: The man to tell you about the Kirby.

Me: What's a Kirby?

Telemarketer: It's a vacuum cleaner

Me: I don't want a vacuum cleaner. Just send the steak knives.

Telemarketer: No, he'll bring them when he comes to tell you about
the Kirby

Me: No, I don't want to see him, just send my steak knives

Telemarketer: I can't do that You can't have them unless he brings
them to you.

Me: SEND THEM! They're MY steak knives. I won them FAIR AND
SQUARE.

Telemarketer: Goodbye


2. Telemarketer: I called to tell you about the life insurance you
asked about.

Me: What life insurance? I never asked about life insurance.

Telemarketer: Didn't you send back the form we mailed you?

Me: What form? No, I never do that.

Telemarketer: Aren't you the 80-year-old lion tamer?

Me: Oh. That form. Do you people really sell life insurance to
80-year-old lion tamers?

Telemarketer: Well, they need life insurance too.

Me: Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha ........


As you might guess, I hate telemarketers.

On 3/7/2014 7:51 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Silver Slimer wrote:

They called my wife once but never bothered with me. I would have loved
for them to do it to me. I absolutely love yanking the chain of such ****s.

I wish I could do something like this extemporaneously to get back at a
telephone solicitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkdoogjic4I

I either interrrupt and mute them them and put the phone aside so
they're hanging on the line getting nuisanced like they nuisanced me, or
I keep saying "Hello" or "Anyone there" while they're talking to pretend
I can't hear them but I wait until they start to get up to speed in
their script for when to interrupt.

I have a buddy that has a script ready so while the telemarketer is
talking he interrupts with "Yes, that sounds interesting and I'd like to
know more but I'd like to ask you something. Have you heard about the
power of Jesus?" The telemarketer tries to get back to his script but
my buddy just keeps responding with canned statements about Jesus Saves,
salvation through Jesus, and so on. He promises to send a bible so asks
for a postal mailing address. Eventually they just hang up on him. Of
course, that means not having anything else to do at the time and
wanting to "play" the telemarketer. To be honest, I think he got the
idea from some comediaine's skit.


Those are all very interesting things to do, but frankly my time is more
valuable to me than to spend it yanking chains.