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Space reserved for System Restore files



 
 
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  #16  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:00 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 20:03:47 -0500, Paul wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In a similar way, I never understood (this is going back several OS
versions, possibly even to 3.1!) the adage of always setting a page file
size (I think that's what it was) a fixed multiple (e. g. 3) of the
amount of RAM you've got. As I saw it, if you had _more_ RAM, you needed
_less_ page file, except for when you had a very small amount.


The old 2:1 ratio used to be a mantra a long time ago.

And even back then, you couldn't trace the advice given,
to some published article or something. It was just
coffee table chat that got passed around.

The practice is all over the map now. People are using
their actual experience, to set a value.

*******

I did resort to using a huge pagefile for a week long
calculation - I did it, because I had a lot to lose,
if the calculation crashed before completion. The max
pagefile usage extended to about 25% of my huge allocation.
I turned it all the way down, later...


There used to be advice floating around, probably some 15+ years ago, about
enabling a performance counter, which is a feature built in to Windows, to
track actual pagefile usage. With the performance counter enabled, you'd use
your computer for a number of days or even a week or more, periodically
checking the performance counter to see how much pagefile had been used.
You'd be looking at the high water mark, rather than current usage. Once
you're satisfied that your normal usage isn't going to push the high water
mark any higher, you simply add a safety margin and now you know, as
precisely as possible, what value you should use. You then set the Min and
Max sizes to that value. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to revisit that
once or twice a year because your software mix and usage habits might change
over time.

It seems like my OS back when I followed that advice was a Win 9x flavor.

Ads
  #17  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:00 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 3/1/2016 8:35 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Neil wrote:
On 2/29/2016 11:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
SR is off the default in Win10.
The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s updates[currently on
the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released
this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update.

i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and
every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR points
and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before
creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image and
o/s partitions).

So... one wipes all SR points, installs the major Win10 update that
screws up their system
(again), and then what???


SR's won't be of any value since they would not apply to what is
effectively a new O/S.
Clone or image prior to major upgrades.

I was making a point about the increasing amount of unpredictable
down-time that is being foisted on businesses by Win10's update
policies. The reality is that a lot of the hardware and applications
that businesses depend on are *way* behind even Windows 8.1. Unless one
can indefinitely delay (if not completely avoid) those updates cloning
and imaging will not help.

--
Best regards,

Neil
  #18  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:03 AM posted to alt.windows7.general, alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 3/1/16 12:38 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Bucky Breeder wrote:
=?UTF-8?Q?...winston=e2=80=ab?= dumbassed this one:

SR is off the default in Win10.


WRONG!
My Windows 10 Pro defaulted to SR turned OFF - on ALL drives!



Having trouble reading
SR is 'off' **the default in Win10**


He'll probably claim "dyslexia" after he brushed the dust of the
dictionary and tries to read the definition.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #19  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:09 AM posted to alt.windows7.general, alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 2/29/16 8:38 PM, Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 2/29/2016 9:20 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore
was 15% of the hard drive size.

I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system,
especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've
found none.

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.




I leave mine set at 15%, which seems to give me plenty of restore
points, Too old points are not of much value anyway.

Regards, Rene


But 15% of a 1TB drive is a lot different than 15% of a 250GB drive.
The only thing that has any meaning is a fixed number.

I've not done any testing as Paul may have done, but it's logical that
the amount of space needed to have X number of restore points will be
dependent on the amount of data SR has to deal with.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #20  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:16 AM posted to alt.windows7.general, alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 2/29/16 9:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore
was 15% of the hard drive size.

I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system,
especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've
found none.

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.



SR is off the default in Win10.
The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s updates[currently on
the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released
this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update.


Personally, that's a p*** poor reason. It certainly does the user a
disservice should they have an issue SR may have been able to fix.

So what if every major update breaks the restore point? That's no
different that Windows 7 breaking the points in Vista.

The point is, the user had a viable option for the X months release X is
in use. And you're also assuming the user will actually update,
provided MS is not its current less than honorable in the practice of
forcing things on users they may not want.

i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and
every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR points
and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before
creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image and
o/s partitions).


I'm looking for recommendations of a starting point after a W10 install
on someone else's computer. Then it becomes the user's decision as to
what to do, presuming the user is computer literate enough to consider
the situation.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #21  
Old March 2nd 16, 04:35 AM posted to alt.windows7.general, alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 3/1/16 5:23 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore
was 15% of the hard drive size.

I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system,
especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've
found none.

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.

I've never understood the percentage rules-of-thumb. To me, such things
use an absolute amount of space (gradually growing with time), not a
percentage of whatever disc size you (or the manufacturer) chose to
provide.


Agreed about the absolute amount of space. Percentages are a good way
of looking good while giving a totally bogus amount of information.

In a similar way, I never understood (this is going back several OS
versions, possibly even to 3.1!) the adage of always setting a page file
size (I think that's what it was) a fixed multiple (e. g. 3) of the
amount of RAM you've got. As I saw it, if you had _more_ RAM, you needed
_less_ page file, except for when you had a very small amount.

So I'd find how much space a restore takes (see how much disc you have
free, make a restore point, do the sums), then decide how many you want,
make some allowance for gradual growth/bloat, and reserve that much
space - not a percentage.

(Or will 7 and 10 only let you set a percentage not an absolute amount?)


Win7 gives you a slider, no direct input as to the absolute size. I
didn't check W10, but I suspect it's the same.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 44.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #22  
Old March 2nd 16, 04:53 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 999
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

Neil wrote:
On 3/1/2016 8:35 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Neil wrote:


I was making a point about the increasing amount of unpredictable down-time that is being
foisted on businesses by Win10's update policies. The reality is that a lot of the
hardware and applications that businesses depend on are *way* behind even Windows 8.1.
Unless one can indefinitely delay (if not completely avoid) those updates cloning and
imaging will not help.


Ahh.. I see. Yah, there is a big difference between business and non-business.
The posters here (including me) mostly discuss home or small business uses.
My employer has somewhere over 1000 computers, 1/4 servers, 1/4 floor models,
with the remainder being laptops and embedded systems.
AFAIK, all the floor and lap versions run W7/64.
It's unlikely that we will ever go W10.



  #23  
Old March 2nd 16, 08:06 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
...winston‫
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,128
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

Neil wrote:
On 3/1/2016 8:35 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Neil wrote:
On 2/29/2016 11:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
SR is off the default in Win10.
The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s
updates[currently on
the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released
this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update.

i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and
every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR
points
and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before
creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image
and
o/s partitions).

So... one wipes all SR points, installs the major Win10 update that
screws up their system
(again), and then what???


SR's won't be of any value since they would not apply to what is
effectively a new O/S.
Clone or image prior to major upgrades.

I was making a point about the increasing amount of unpredictable
down-time that is being foisted on businesses by Win10's update
policies. The reality is that a lot of the hardware and applications
that businesses depend on are *way* behind even Windows 8.1. Unless one
can indefinitely delay (if not completely avoid) those updates cloning
and imaging will not help.

Business running Enterprise version are not seeing the Win10 update.
if a business is not running an Enterprise version, then if not having a
sound backup plan for existing devices to restore(image, clone,
redeploy) when running 7/8x the business would be at risk and one might
even say foolish.

On the Win10 side business should be using W10 Pro or Enterprise
- each providing the option to delay or even disable Win10 upgrades.
If using Win10 Home instead of Pro or Enterprise - they may have made
the wrong choice of o/s.

--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience
  #24  
Old March 2nd 16, 08:27 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
...winston‫
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,128
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

Ken Springer wrote:
On 2/29/16 9:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore
was 15% of the hard drive size.

I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system,
especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've
found none.

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.



SR is off the default in Win10.
The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s updates[currently on
the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released
this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update.


Personally, that's a p*** poor reason. It certainly does the user a
disservice should they have an issue SR may have been able to fix.

So what if every major update breaks the restore point? That's no
different that Windows 7 breaking the points in Vista.

The point is, the user had a viable option for the X months release X is
in use. And you're also assuming the user will actually update,
provided MS is not its current less than honorable in the practice of
forcing things on users they may not want.

i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and
every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR points
and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before
creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image and
o/s partitions).


I'm looking for recommendations of a starting point after a W10 install
on someone else's computer. Then it becomes the user's decision as to
what to do, presuming the user is computer literate enough to consider
the situation.


While not exactly the same, it's not too different than not being able
to use SR to return a Win7Sp1 to Win7RTM. Uninstall SP1 via WU was
necessary (unless one imaged prior to SP1).
The 'Go Back' recovery option only available for 30 days has a similar
'primary' reason - but more time-restricted... anytime after 30 days
MSFT believes(after a major W10 upgrade) too much end-user changes
become possible(tweak, tamper, install software, replace hardware, etc.).

They might not be good reasons for everyone, but the current Win10 game
is played on MSFT's field and they have, and most likely will for some
time...the home field advantage, and so far, if not already apparent,
they are also providing their own umpire.



--
....winston
msft mvp windows experience
  #25  
Old March 2nd 16, 01:34 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Neil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 714
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 3/2/2016 2:06 AM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Neil wrote:
On 3/1/2016 8:35 PM, Paul in Houston TX wrote:
Neil wrote:
On 2/29/2016 11:23 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
SR is off the default in Win10.
The primary reason - with Win10 providing major o/s
updates[currently on
the second update(aka 1511)with the 3rd(16xx)expected to be released
this summer]any prior SR point becomes useless after an o/s update.

i.e. if enabling System Restore make a note to reset it after each and
every major update. In fact, it may be appropriate to wipe all SR
points
and disable prior to installing a major Win10 update and only before
creating an image of the System and Boot Volume(Win10's System Image
and
o/s partitions).

So... one wipes all SR points, installs the major Win10 update that
screws up their system
(again), and then what???

SR's won't be of any value since they would not apply to what is
effectively a new O/S.
Clone or image prior to major upgrades.

I was making a point about the increasing amount of unpredictable
down-time that is being foisted on businesses by Win10's update
policies. The reality is that a lot of the hardware and applications
that businesses depend on are *way* behind even Windows 8.1. Unless one
can indefinitely delay (if not completely avoid) those updates cloning
and imaging will not help.

Business running Enterprise version are not seeing the Win10 update.
if a business is not running an Enterprise version, then if not having a
sound backup plan for existing devices to restore(image, clone,
redeploy) when running 7/8x the business would be at risk and one might
even say foolish.

On the Win10 side business should be using W10 Pro or Enterprise
- each providing the option to delay or even disable Win10 upgrades.
If using Win10 Home instead of Pro or Enterprise - they may have made
the wrong choice of o/s.

Though I agree that businesses need to select the appropriate OS
version, the solution may not be as easy. If the material that Mayanaya
presented a while back regarding MS' definition of "enterprise" and
"pro" is correct, the implication is that either those policies have
changed or people are being misled and will be in for a rather rude
awakening.

--
Best regards,

Neil
  #26  
Old March 2nd 16, 03:51 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Bucky Breeder[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 526
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

=?UTF-8?Q?...winston=e2=80=ab?= poopy-pants this:
Bucky Breeder wrote:
=?UTF-8?Q?...winston=e2=80=ab?= dumbassed this one:

SR is off the default in Win10.


WRONG!
My Windows 10 Pro defaulted to SR turned OFF - on ALL drives!



Having trouble reading
SR is 'off' **the default in Win10**


winston's selective snips revealed :



Your geriatric diapers must be filled up to yer ears because
My Windows 10 defaulted to SR off. You clearly said that SR was
off the default in Win10, and that is WRONG! So WRONG! Sometimes it
defaults to on and sometimes it defaults to off depending on what the SR
default is on a particular situation. Take a poll. Take yer medications
and get yer diapers changed.

No matter what the defaults are, even if there are no "defaults" because the
upgrade simply used the old OS settings, users should be comfortable and
familiar with how to make easy easy easy adjustments within the interface
without hacking the registry and installing 3rd-party bloatware which may
further complicate diagnoses when something else goes awry after an update.

Besides, I also listed easy to understand and follow instructions on how to
make adjustments, if a reader be so inclined to study it and make their own
decisions - INSTEAD of listening to YOU whine and pontificate, you wannabe-M
$FT-shill.



--

I AM Bucky Breeder, (*(^;

Resolve conflicts the American way :

Rock - Paper - Scissors - Twitter War - Concealed Firearm

.... and I approve this message!
  #27  
Old March 2nd 16, 04:04 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 20:35:29 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 3/1/16 5:23 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
Back in the XP days, the amount of recommended space for System Restore
was 15% of the hard drive size.

I've been looking for some similar recommendations for newer system,
especially since W10 has System Restore off as the default. But I've
found none.

Looking for thoughts and suggestions.

I've never understood the percentage rules-of-thumb. To me, such things
use an absolute amount of space (gradually growing with time), not a
percentage of whatever disc size you (or the manufacturer) chose to
provide.


Agreed about the absolute amount of space. Percentages are a good way
of looking good while giving a totally bogus amount of information.



Another vote against percentages here!

  #28  
Old March 2nd 16, 07:39 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Tue, 01 Mar 2016 20:03:47 -0500, Paul wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In a similar way, I never understood (this is going back several OS
versions, possibly even to 3.1!) the adage of always setting a page file
size (I think that's what it was) a fixed multiple (e. g. 3) of the
amount of RAM you've got. As I saw it, if you had _more_ RAM, you needed

[]
There used to be advice floating around, probably some 15+ years ago, about

[]
checking the performance counter to see how much pagefile had been used.
You'd be looking at the high water mark, rather than current usage. Once
you're satisfied that your normal usage isn't going to push the high water
mark any higher, you simply add a safety margin and now you know, as
precisely as possible, what value you should use. You then set the Min and
Max sizes to that value. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to revisit that
once or twice a year because your software mix and usage habits might change
over time.

It seems like my OS back when I followed that advice was a Win 9x flavor.

I think the bit about setting min and max to the same was mostly so that
a page file of fixed size gets generated, and thereafter uses the same
piece of disc (I think the recommendation was also to do it just after a
defrag); if the OS was allowed to vary the size of the pagefile, it
could end up fragmented, which of course had a significant effect on
performance.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells
  #29  
Old March 2nd 16, 09:08 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I think the bit about setting min and max to the same was mostly so that
a page file of fixed size gets generated, and thereafter uses the same
piece of disc (I think the recommendation was also to do it just after a
defrag); if the OS was allowed to vary the size of the pagefile, it
could end up fragmented, which of course had a significant effect on
performance.


That's how I set mine. Fixed side. Min = Max.
No fragments.

The pagefile is made big enough, if I "hear grinding",
then I know something I'm running is in trouble.

On OSes like Win8/Win10, you really want to kill runaway
programs, before the Task Manager becomes useless/gutless
and can no longer be used to do anything. I've had a couple
events, where I spent a whole hour trying to select an
item in the Task Manager, without success. Things were so slow,
all attempts would overshoot or otherwise mis-behave. I ended
up using the power button. Whereas the Task Manager on WinXP,
most of the time, I can hammer stuff when needed on there.
I think I even had WinXP running so slow I was getting
"Delayed Write Failure" and I was still able to kill the
runaway process. That's where the file system has become
so slow, writes cannot complete in a timely fashion,
and they time out and leave a log entry.

The one thing I couldn't fix on WinXP, was a crashed
game, with the audio output stuck in a one second loop.
Usually at that point, there isn't enough sanity left
to kill the game process.

Paul
  #30  
Old March 2nd 16, 09:17 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory
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Posts: 648
Default Space reserved for System Restore files

On 02/03/2016 02:09, Ken Springer wrote:
But 15% of a 1TB drive is a lot different than 15% of a 250GB drive. The
only thing that has any meaning is a fixed number.


I guess the idea is that a big drive is likely to have more stuff
installed on it which will sometimes get updated and might need to be
restored if things go wrong.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.
 




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