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OT - SSD & Autocad



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 31st 14, 08:36 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
pjp[_9_]
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Posts: 304
Default OT - SSD & Autocad



Wife uses an I7 with 16Gb ram under Win7 Pro.

New contract so wondering if putting in a SSD hard disk as primary would
in the real world speed up Autocad (latest version) which even with pc
she uses seems slow somtimes to her. I know it'd speed up the system
overall but am more interested in would it actually speed up Autocad
while using it and not just load times etc.
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  #2  
Old May 31st 14, 11:44 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
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Posts: 18,275
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

pjp wrote:

Wife uses an I7 with 16Gb ram under Win7 Pro.

New contract so wondering if putting in a SSD hard disk as primary would
in the real world speed up Autocad (latest version) which even with pc
she uses seems slow somtimes to her. I know it'd speed up the system
overall but am more interested in would it actually speed up Autocad
while using it and not just load times etc.


When you use the Performance plugin and watch disk write bytes/sec,
read bytes/sec, writes per sec, reads per sec, what do you see ?
That's something I do to quantify disk activity. Modern disks can
carry out an amazing number of I/O per second, as the cache RAM
on the disk drive controller actually gets used for its intended
purpose now. In fact, for some OSes, it's the OS itself which
begins to saturate (maybe at more than 10,000 I/O per sec level).
It's possible with some storage devices, that the weakest link
ends up being the OS (I noticed this on my RAMDisk).

A second thing you can try, is sysinternals.com Process Monitor,
start the trace with no filter events. Carry out a CAD session,
and watch all the activity. The log will have a record of file
operations, the size of each read and write. You can set Process Monitor
to record events to disk, rather than run it RAM backed, for really
big traces.

You might not need all that info, but if you absolutely must see
the I/O portion, that can give some ideas.

You can also use your Task Manager, to study CPU usage. And see
if it's being a pig on the CPU front.

*******

Autocad is also likely to place an OpenGL load on the graphics
card. But I don't have any magic study tools for that. Some
desktop cards, the silicon has plenty of horsepower, but the
driver provided by ATI/NVidia is "neutered" on purpose. To
make you want to go out and buy some overpriced FireGL card.
If I run SpecViewPerf on my current video card, it is dog slow
for that. Whereas a game doing more detail than that, works
just fine. My SpecViewPerf runs might be running at 1 FPS.
Whereas a game with a decent number of polygons is 30FPS.

Generally, you want to find an Autocad forum, to get the
scoop on hardware speedup. It's too much work to reverse
engineer that stuff all by yourself, when occasionally
at least one CAD user has enough clues to figure out what
it needs. And what the graphics card is doing, is the part
I'd have trouble quantifying.

According to this, older versions of Autocad used Direct3D,
whereas the version mentioned in this article uses OpenGL.
And that allows the FireGL/Quadro scam to be pulled ("we
only give you a good driver, if you buy our unnecessarily
expensive video card"). If you use a regular desktop
video card, the driver for it is not as good for OpenGL,
on purpose.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/autocad...f_drivers.html

At one time, there were hacks to convert a desktop card,
into one of the other flavors. And in that era, people
would then be in a position to do head to head
comparisons of what the driver component was doing
to them. I doubt any modern card leaves that signal
just sitting there, to be tweaked with a soldering iron.

Paul
  #3  
Old May 31st 14, 06:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
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Posts: 5,291
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

In message , Charles
Lindbergh writes:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 04:36:19 -0300, pjp wrote:



Wife uses an I7 with 16Gb ram under Win7 Pro.

New contract so wondering if putting in a SSD hard disk as primary would
in the real world speed up Autocad (latest version) which even with pc
she uses seems slow somtimes to her. I know it'd speed up the system
overall but am more interested in would it actually speed up Autocad
while using it and not just load times etc.


Not knowing what kind of hard drive you are currently using in the system, it
should make a noticeable difference.


Well, check the way Paul described first - though I must admit wondering
if just looking at the HD access light (perhaps with a magnifying glass,
and in the dark if possible) when she's doing something she feels is
slow might answer the question!

Additionally, if doubling the RAM is in the budget, that might be a good idea
too.


Again, first, I'd check with Task Manager (while doing something ...) to
see if you're getting anywhere near the 16G; if not, then upping it
probably won't help. IMO anyway.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Just as many people feel Christmas hasn't begun until they've heard the carols
at King's, or that the election campaign hasn't begun until some politician
lambasts the BBC ... - Eddie Mair, Radio Times 2013/11/16-22
  #4  
Old June 1st 14, 03:19 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
pjp[_9_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 304
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:22:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Charles
Lindbergh writes:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 04:36:19 -0300, pjp wrote:



Wife uses an I7 with 16Gb ram under Win7 Pro.

New contract so wondering if putting in a SSD hard disk as primary would
in the real world speed up Autocad (latest version) which even with pc
she uses seems slow somtimes to her. I know it'd speed up the system
overall but am more interested in would it actually speed up Autocad
while using it and not just load times etc.

Not knowing what kind of hard drive you are currently using in the system, it
should make a noticeable difference.


Well, check the way Paul described first - though I must admit wondering
if just looking at the HD access light (perhaps with a magnifying glass,
and in the dark if possible) when she's doing something she feels is
slow might answer the question!

Additionally, if doubling the RAM is in the budget, that might be a good idea
too.


Again, first, I'd check with Task Manager (while doing something ...) to
see if you're getting anywhere near the 16G; if not, then upping it
probably won't help. IMO anyway.


There are a lot of dynamics to consider in the situation. Version of Acad, size
and complexity of the projects, etc. However, opening a project and saving a
project with a SSD can be up to 8 times faster, with a huge project, for
example, the fans of a turbofan engine, a significant increase in the speed in
which the project opens could be very gratifying.

I saw that Fry's was selling a 250gb Samsung ssd this weekend for $139, for that
price, experimenting would not be cost prohibitive.

As Paul suggested, I would also take a look at the video subsystem and make sure
I had one that provided a significant ROI.


Ok, guess there's two upgrades would increase system enough to notice.

She runs newest Acad with regular updates (company/contract insists) and
what little I've noticed is she complains about redraw times. I assume
there's a fair amount of paging going on doing that given drawings are
well over the 16 Gb ram she has. Therefore SSD would help likely very
noticably with that.

The second upgrade would be to a better video card. She's using some
onboard dual-head video right now. I once checked this out and there
does appear to be some specialized video cards more or less for Acad
that suggest very good performance improvement. Trouble is they're very
expensive (too much so) so I'll have to determine where in the
performance graph current video is compared with various nVida and ATI
products. Keeping dual-head is essential but likely not a problem with
newer video card as haven't seen one in awhile doesn't do dual-head.

I've asked her to query on an Acad forum she sometimes visits for help.

I don't think ram is a problem to tackle without the above first.
  #5  
Old June 1st 14, 04:15 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...
On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:22:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Charles
Lindbergh writes:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 04:36:19 -0300, pjp wrote:


Wife uses an I7 with 16Gb ram under Win7 Pro.

New contract so wondering if putting in a SSD hard disk as primary would
in the real world speed up Autocad (latest version) which even with pc
she uses seems slow somtimes to her. I know it'd speed up the system
overall but am more interested in would it actually speed up Autocad
while using it and not just load times etc.
Not knowing what kind of hard drive you are currently using in the system, it
should make a noticeable difference.
Well, check the way Paul described first - though I must admit wondering
if just looking at the HD access light (perhaps with a magnifying glass,
and in the dark if possible) when she's doing something she feels is
slow might answer the question!
Additionally, if doubling the RAM is in the budget, that might be a good idea
too.
Again, first, I'd check with Task Manager (while doing something ...) to
see if you're getting anywhere near the 16G; if not, then upping it
probably won't help. IMO anyway.

There are a lot of dynamics to consider in the situation. Version of Acad, size
and complexity of the projects, etc. However, opening a project and saving a
project with a SSD can be up to 8 times faster, with a huge project, for
example, the fans of a turbofan engine, a significant increase in the speed in
which the project opens could be very gratifying.

I saw that Fry's was selling a 250gb Samsung ssd this weekend for $139, for that
price, experimenting would not be cost prohibitive.

As Paul suggested, I would also take a look at the video subsystem and make sure
I had one that provided a significant ROI.


Ok, guess there's two upgrades would increase system enough to notice.

She runs newest Acad with regular updates (company/contract insists) and
what little I've noticed is she complains about redraw times. I assume
there's a fair amount of paging going on doing that given drawings are
well over the 16 Gb ram she has. Therefore SSD would help likely very
noticably with that.

The second upgrade would be to a better video card. She's using some
onboard dual-head video right now. I once checked this out and there
does appear to be some specialized video cards more or less for Acad
that suggest very good performance improvement. Trouble is they're very
expensive (too much so) so I'll have to determine where in the
performance graph current video is compared with various nVida and ATI
products. Keeping dual-head is essential but likely not a problem with
newer video card as haven't seen one in awhile doesn't do dual-head.

I've asked her to query on an Acad forum she sometimes visits for help.

I don't think ram is a problem to tackle without the above first.


Find someone with a better video card at work (a fellow
Autocad worker), and compare ? If you find someone with a
Quadro 2000 and they're "satisfied" with the performance,
perhaps that would be a guide as to what to buy.

And make sure you're comparing like-tool usage - if your wife
has trouble with Solidworks, make sure to ask about Solidworks
performance, and not just Autocad.

While you can run SpecViewPerf (OpenGL benchmark), I don't know
how you take a rating from that, and translate that into an
Autocad result. Benchmarks would be good for deciding a newly
purchased card is twice as fast as the old one, but it may be
difficult with a single number from SpecViewPerf, to decide
just how much the hardware needed to be improved. The one time
I've run SpecViewPerf here, the results were dreadful, and I would
be forced to "guess in the $$$" range, of video cards to fix it.
I couldn't even tell the output was supposed to be a real-time
animation.

A couple threads I could find on the web, state that
*basic* Autocad is not that demanding, and doesn't need
a monster video card. But other tools which do more 3D,
may be more demanding.

One reason this sort of thing happens, is the algorithms are
dumb. You load ever possible object in a design, into video
card memory. Then they get the video card to use Z-buffer
visibility, to work out which polygons in the viewport should
be visible. When you rotate a finished object at 10FPS, it
means the video card is working out which polygons of a
few hundred thousand, can be seen on the screen, and then
display those (every 100 milliseconds). If the CPU was used
to prune the display list in the first place, the video card
would not have to work so hard. And if the polygons loaded
stretch past the limits of video card memory, there could be
significant PCI Express bus traffic, to drag stuff in.

There's probably a utility around somewhere, that reports
GPU memory usage, but I don't know if that works when you're
in OpenGL mode or not. And with the change to how video
card memory is managed, I expect the last OS to give good
results with this utility, is WinXP.

http://nuclearplayground.com/index.p...tent=MemStatus

Paul
  #6  
Old June 1st 14, 04:45 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
sticks
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Posts: 56
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

On 5/31/2014 9:19 PM, pjp wrote:

She runs newest Acad with regular updates (company/contract insists) and
what little I've noticed is she complains about redraw times. I assume
there's a fair amount of paging going on doing that given drawings are
well over the 16 Gb ram she has. Therefore SSD would help likely very
noticably with that.


Are you sure you have the 16 Gb size for the working file right? That's
a huge file for Cad. Hell, that's a huge file for anything. If it
really is 16 Gig, I think you can expect wait time while it redraws.

Not knowing what type of work she is doing, the one thing I would
suggest to her is to try and turn off any layers that aren't necessary,
and try to break it down if possible. I work with files a fraction of
that size and it gives my I7 a workout.

sticks
  #8  
Old June 1st 14, 04:54 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
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Posts: 5,556
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

On 5/31/2014 12:47 PM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:22:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
I saw that Fry's was selling a 250gb Samsung ssd this weekend for $139, for that
price, experimenting would not be cost prohibitive.


Newegg's Editor's Elite newsletter had the Samsung 840 EVO MZ-7TE1T0BW
2.5" 1TB for $439.99 that I was looking at. Although the limit is only
two per customer. :-(

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Kingston 120GB SSD - Thunderbird v24.4.0
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8.1 Pro w/Media Center
  #9  
Old June 3rd 14, 09:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
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Posts: 5,291
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

In message , BillW50
writes:
On 5/31/2014 12:47 PM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:22:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
I saw that Fry's was selling a 250gb Samsung ssd this weekend for
$139, for that
price, experimenting would not be cost prohibitive.


I didn't write that.


Newegg's Editor's Elite newsletter had the Samsung 840 EVO MZ-7TE1T0BW
2.5" 1TB for $439.99 that I was looking at. Although the limit is only
two per customer. :-(

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Religion is a name for opinion that cannot be argued about. [Heard on Radio 4,
2010-10-18, 9:xx.]
  #10  
Old June 8th 14, 12:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default OT - SSD & Autocad

In ,
J. P. Gilliver (John) typed on Tue, 3 Jun 2014 21:10:27 +0100:
In message , BillW50 writes:
On 5/31/2014 12:47 PM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Sat, 31 May 2014 18:22:00 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
I saw that Fry's was selling a 250gb Samsung ssd this weekend for
$139, for that price, experimenting would not be cost prohibitive.


I didn't write that.


Nobody said you did. Looking at the quote marks, Charles wrote it while
replying to one of your posts.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Kingston 120GB SSD - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core2 Duo T5600 1.83GHz - 4GB - Windows XP SP2


 




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