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FIXMBR redux



 
 
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  #46  
Old June 3rd 04, 12:41 PM
William B. Lurie
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Default FIXMBR redux

Excellent idea, Michael, and I'll be very interested in trying it. It
sounds reminiscent of the "Trace" debugging tools that were
built into FORTRAN compilers that I learned to use 40 years ago.
I'm pretty sure that the F8 tap will work on my bootable drive,
I'll have to see about the other one. If it will deposit a file that
I can find on either drive, I know that I can access it from the
booted-up system. I don't offhand see how I can tell it to store
a file anywhere, on the system that hangs halfway through and
doesn't get the OS running, but I'll have to look and see and try.

This is exploring brand-new ground, however,
so if there's a document with instructions, for F8 booting and
saving, I'd appreciate it, and will take it from there.
WBL

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:

Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place a
file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the boot
on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name for the
moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start tapping F8,
select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the name and check
that log.

Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a
bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and see
on what exactly the boot is choking.




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  #47  
Old June 3rd 04, 01:41 PM
William B. Lurie
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Default FIXMBR redux

Thanks for great idea, Michael....I found it, tried F8, selected
"Enable Bootlogging", it proceeded to the choice of XP or RC
with a blue note at bottom of screen confirming bootlogging "on".
Bootup proceeded normally, and when at Desktop, I did a Search
all over the drive for file containing "bootlog". Searched all
files including "hidden"....it found none. Is there a KB article
telling all the details, or can you advise......?
I expect that when I'm successful on Master Drive and have a bootlog
to study, I will fire up the Slave as Master, including bootlog,
and then when it hangs, I can reconfigure with that drive back in
Slave position, with the attempted bootup and its log available
in its files. But first I must learn how to locate the bootlog
on any drive.....
WBL

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place a
file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the boot
on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name for the
moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start tapping F8,
select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the name and check
that log.

Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a
bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and see
on what exactly the boot is choking.

  #48  
Old June 3rd 04, 08:41 PM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
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Default FIXMBR redux

William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder.

NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even on
the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that
ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by the
system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they result in
"load failures."

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Thanks for great idea, Michael....I found it, tried F8, selected
"Enable Bootlogging", it proceeded to the choice of XP or RC
with a blue note at bottom of screen confirming bootlogging "on".
Bootup proceeded normally, and when at Desktop, I did a Search
all over the drive for file containing "bootlog". Searched all
files including "hidden"....it found none. Is there a KB article
telling all the details, or can you advise......?
I expect that when I'm successful on Master Drive and have a bootlog
to study, I will fire up the Slave as Master, including bootlog,
and then when it hangs, I can reconfigure with that drive back in
Slave position, with the attempted bootup and its log available
in its files. But first I must learn how to locate the bootlog
on any drive.....
WBL

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place
a file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the
boot on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name
for the moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start
tapping F8, select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the
name and check that log.

Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a
bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and
see on what exactly the boot is choking.



  #49  
Old June 4th 04, 01:41 AM
William B. Lurie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder.

NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even on
the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that
ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by the
system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they result in
"load failures."

Thank you, Michael. I couldn't have guessed that that would
be what the log is stored as. But I find such a file on the
bootable drive and on the non-bootable drive. I assume that
I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure
they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me
anything. If you care to look at one, I've stored the bad
one on my website as

http://bellsouthpwp.net/billurie/b/i/ntbtlog.txt

but it is *very* lengthy....about 870KB. It starts out
with several dozen successful calls, followed by pages of
unsuccessful one. Perhaps you'd care to give it a quick
glance and tell me if you think it's likely to be fruitful.
Bill L.
  #50  
Old June 4th 04, 01:41 AM
William B. Lurie
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Default FIXMBR redux

Try

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog.txt

for my bootlog.
--
William B. Lurie

  #51  
Old June 4th 04, 12:41 PM
William B. Lurie
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Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Michael and/or Sharon:
bootlog ntbtlog.txt, I have done the following thus far:
On my non-booting drive, I cleaned out the old bootlog and
started it again with F8 and Enable bootlog. I then
allowed it to 'hang', and shut down, went back to 'normal'
mode of running my good drive as Master, and the non-booter
as Slave.
I then copied the file ntbtlog.txt from the Slave and put it
on my website as

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt

(I hope I typed that correctly).
It is not all that big a file now, only 10K, and it
shows a string of successful loads and interspersed
failed loads. I gather that I must do the same for
the Master drive, and then we can compare the two logs.
Is that correct?
--
William B. Lurie
  #52  
Old June 4th 04, 07:41 PM
William B. Lurie
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Default FIXMBR redux

Michael and/or Sharon:

I'm sticking to this 'subject' although we're wandering
away from it a bit. Who is to say that MBR is what needs
fixing? In any case, I have two files:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog2.txt

and

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt

These are the boot logs for cold boot of my two
hard drives, containing my working hard drive (log2)
and the supposed clone, which gives (log1) but 'hangs'.

Obviously, the 'good' one goes further and boots all
the way, successfully, while the 'bad' one stops shorter.
I'm hoping that one of you will look at the two logs and
be able to tell me what I have to do, to get the 'bad'
drive to proceed past where it now 'hangs'.

Bill Lurie
  #53  
Old June 4th 04, 10:43 PM
*Vanguard*
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Default FIXMBR redux

Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in
:
snip
If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the
MBR is gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the
image you created of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it
restores the image.


Deleting a partition only updates the partition table (which is after
the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR, or sector 0). Deleting a
partition does NOT touch the bootstrap program! That's why you can
still use that bootstrap program on that drive after deleting, changing,
or moving partitions whether using PartitionMagic, DriveImage, or FDISK
(without using its undocumented /MBR parameter).


  #54  
Old June 4th 04, 10:43 PM
*Vanguard*
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Default FIXMBR redux

William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:54:57 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:


Oh, you are at least 105% correct, Sharon. On all counts. And I
did see your note and saved the message but didn't follow up right
away (or yet) because I wasn't sure I could find all the items.
I'm in a ticklish position: I willingly perform any operations
on the clones while keeping the Master off the system, out of
harm's way, but I'm reluctant to do anything to the Master which
might cause me to have *no* working system. My question, obviously,
is, if I do what you show in quotes above, am I taking any chance
at all that I'm endangering my Master system?



No chances that I know of. I had the Recovery Console installed too
with a 3 second time out. Eventually I removed it too. Those were
the steps I used (including the deletion of the cmldr file) and my
setup didn't keel over.

The same directions can be found in this document:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=307654


Okay, I put the clone back in Slave spot so that I could search and
make the deletions you recommended. I found boot.ini and removed
the line referring to CMDCONS. That's the first good news. The first
bad news is that Search couldn't find CMDCONS itself, nor could
it find CMLDR.

The second good news is that I ran that drive again in Master or
Single position (alone, as Master) and this time it (of course)
didn't do the RC choice,ecause it is gone from boot.ini ....

But the second bad news is that it proceeds then to the black
Windows XP logo screen, and then to the light blue screen where
it should load my personal settings......and still hangs there.
So I'll hope you can tell me how to get past that road block.
Bill Lurie


The cmdcons directory has the system and hidden attributes set. When
searching, you must use the advanced options to enable searching of
hidden and system files. However, there really isn't much searching to
do. The directory is:

C:\cmdcons

That is, it is right under the root node. Review the following KB
article:

How to remove Windows Recovery Console
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=555032

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  #55  
Old June 4th 04, 10:43 PM
*Vanguard*
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Default FIXMBR redux

William B. Lurie said in :
» mrtee « wrote:

"C:\cmdcons" is where mine is found. Just open Explorer.

Thanks, Jeff. I looked for cmdcons and \cmdcons all over
c: ..... several ways. Windows Explorer; Search;
and even went to run 'cmd' and went to c:\ root
directory and I couldn't find it. And of course, I did all
the *show hidden files and folders* and cleared the Hide
Protected operating system files.

Of course, if I can't find those files and folders, then
I don't have to delete them.


Hmm, maybe you really no longer have the Recovery Console installed but
the entry was left behind in boot.ini. If you select Recovery Console
from the boot menu, can you actually get into Recovery Console mode?
Could you show us the contents of your boot.ini file? It will list the
path to find its executables for its menu selection in boot.ini.

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  #56  
Old June 4th 04, 11:41 PM
*Vanguard*
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Default FIXMBR redux

William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 07:40:05 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote:


For one thing, I'd like
to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by
reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option.
If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it.



It was at the end of my other post to you:

"To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the
root (usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference
to it."

You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery
console installation - also in the root folder.

William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard
drive and for an image set that is restored using the imaging
software. Usually which type of image is being discussed is noted
very early in a discussion so that both parties are on the same
page. This is why I made the effort to define the distinction at the
beginning of my previous message.

Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job
expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard!

Sharon, it's indeed unfortunate that the software designer,
in PQ, chose to leave the words 'copy' and 'image' mixed
up. What they call a "drive image" is indeed a bunch of code
which their own recovery program is supposed to convert to
a clone or exact copy or duplicate of the original. Neither
they nore anybody else has made it clear to tired, muddled old
me, why that two-step capability is necessary or even desirable.


If you were to save exact bit-for-bit-by-sector of your drive, your
backup media would have to be as large as the source drive you were
backing up. For an 80GB hard drive, you would need another 80GB hard
drive (you cannot mix media types, like using DVD to save this type of
image since the file systems and formatting along with the controller
support are different). Saving an image fileset which contains a
logical description of the physical definition of a partition means you
can compress it (to reduce how much backup media space you will need),
skip unused sectors (which DriveImage will do but not Ghost) but simply
record that they were skipped, and you can use a completely different
type of backup media, like CD-R[W], DVD-+R[W], tape, another drive (even
using a different interface), and so on. The recovery program will use
the file system needed to read the image fileset to perform a physical
write based on the logical information from those files.

A *clone* of a disk is what you were thinking of and will do a
bit-for-bit read of each sector on the source disk and lay down that
same exact data onto the target disk. So obviously your same media-type
clone disk has to be the same size or larger than your source disk.
Even if it were possible to save a *clone* of a hard drive onto DVD-R[W]
discs, would you really want to take the time writing to slower DVDs and
having to swap and store something like 20 of them when you could've
save an image fileset on half or less of that? DriveImage writes its
boot program on the first CD/DVD so you can boot from that and restore
using that media so it is still very convenient to use the image fileset
as opposed to using a clone or ISO image but the restore will take
longer because of the slower media onto which the image fileset was
saved unless, of course, you save it on, say, another hard disk. For
disaster recovery (that is external rather than using mirroring), I
prefer NOT to use hard drives because they are mechanical devices. Try
to explain to your boss that you cannot do a restore because the media
is okay (platters) but the interface controller on the hard drive or the
actuator for the head assembly doesn't work anymore. You can destroy
the removable media, too, but you could destroy CDs as well as you can
destroy the platters in a hard drive, but with removable media you can
get another drive to replace the faulty one. Disk images (clones or
image filesets) on hard disks should only be for short-term backups,
like maybe a week, for quickest recovery but not considered your
long-term recovery media. I've experienced a joker dropping a hard
drive and losing our recovery disk (but we had the older recovery
removable media to fall back on).

So I went back to where I was a month ago, when I tried making
what PowerQuest describes as a "copy". I installed my Slave
drive as Master and formatted it anew, as Active and Primary,
and empty. I then jumpered it as Slave, put it in Slave
position, put my Master on as Master, and used Drive Image 7.0
to "Copy One Drive to Another This copes the contents of
your Drive directly to another drive". Actually, I copied only
the first (Master) partition of my Master Drive to the Slave.

I used Partition Magic to verify that the Slave Drive contained
very close to the same number of bytes as the Master OS. I then
shut down, jumpered the Slave Drive as a Single Drive, put it in
Master position on the cable, no other drive present, and booted
up. It got to where I was when I did this same thing a month
ago, so at least it's reproducible. It booted through BIOS, to
the place where I could select XP Pro or Recovery Console, I
picked XP, and got the black Windows logo screen, and then after
the usual wait, the light blue Windows logo screen, which should
say "loading your personal settings"........and there it hangs.
So Windows copied nicely, and all my data and files and programs
and applications copied nicely, but it doesn't get to the "Loading
your personal settings" place. Those words are missing from the
light blue screen, and that's where I was when one of the MVPs
(who shall remain nameless) convinced me that I should not use
the "Drive Copy" path, that I really wanted the Image.


Boy, sure sounds like what you did should have worked. The only thing
that comes to mind at the moment is disk signatures. Each disk has an
area where a unique signature of hex bytes get written to it. Windows
NT/2000/XP will use the signatures to identify the device. That is why
you can configure a partition on a disk as C:, insert a new hard drive
in the physical scan chain that positions it before your old drive, and
C: will still be seen as the partition on your now second hard drive. I
haven't much investigated how DriveCopy works. I would've thought that
it would copy ALL bytes across ALL sectors (rather than work within the
bounds of partitions). That would mean it would include the track 0
along with the MBR in which the disk signature is written. But if
DriveCopy doesn't touch the MRB (or track 0) then the second drive will
still have its disk signature that it had before when it was not drive
C:. The boot.ini file (other than for Recovery Console or some other
parallel installed OS) denotes where to find Windows based on physical
parameters (drive and partition), and that works because, as you've
mentioned, you got past the boot procedure and get into the OS load
process.

Well, he couldn't get me past that road block, in the XP
boot-up procedure, Sharon, maybe you can? Or maybe I need the other
piece of software that somebody just suggested here.


See if using the /SOS option in boot.ini on the line used to load the
instance of the OS that you select. See
http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/bootini.shtml for a reference of
boot.ini setup and options. However, it sounds like you are getting
farther than the driver load screen will show, anyway.

Do you get the same hang if you try to boot Windows into its Safe mode?
I have found, especially after some hardware changes or driver installs,
that Windows will hang during the device detect phase. So I boot into
Safe mode and then reboot again but into normal mode.

By the way, I searched for cmdcons folder on C:\ and can't find
it. Yes, I told it to seek hidden files. I did find it in boot.ini,
however.


See my other posts in response to you not finding the cmdcons folder.

There is one other point that I would like to mention. When saving an
image fileset (not making a clone), do not save it on an NTFS partition
on a hard drive. While Symantec says they support the saving of the
image fileset on NTFS partitions, I have encountered problems with that
on many occasions. The restore will fail at some point, usually around
75%, and then abort with a message that it cannot file the image file
that it was just reading okay up to that point. One cure which often
helps is to NOT use the Caldera DOS that Symantec uses for the bootable
floppies (and for the bootable first CD in an image fileset saved to
that media type). They recommend creating an MS-DOS 6 or Windows 98/ME
bootable floppy as the first floppy in their 2-floppy boot set. When
Caldera DOS caused DriveImage to fail, I often could get a Win98 boot
floppy to work (but then I had to restart the entire restore). This is
not a problem of an NTFSDOS driver not working under Caldera DOS but
working under MSDOS6 or Win98. DriveImage doesn't need that driver but
it will still make BIOS calls through the underlying DOS. Hmm, this
isn't some really old computer that requires a disk overlay manager in
the bootstrap area of the MBR, is it?

The other cure is to not save the image fileset on an NTFS partition on
a hard disk and instead save it instead on a FAT32 partition (you don't
have NTFS on non-hard disk drives so it isn't an issue on those other
media types). This only addresses the problem if DriveImage should
abort for you at some time. However, if the image restore completes
okay then I would assume the entire process completed without any write
errors to the restore disk.

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  #57  
Old June 4th 04, 11:41 PM
*Vanguard*
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Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

William B. Lurie said in :
Michael and/or Sharon:

I'm sticking to this 'subject' although we're wandering
away from it a bit. Who is to say that MBR is what needs
fixing? In any case, I have two files:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog2.txt

and

http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt

These are the boot logs for cold boot of my two
hard drives, containing my working hard drive (log2)
and the supposed clone, which gives (log1) but 'hangs'.

Obviously, the 'good' one goes further and boots all
the way, successfully, while the 'bad' one stops shorter.
I'm hoping that one of you will look at the two logs and
be able to tell me what I have to do, to get the 'bad'
drive to proceed past where it now 'hangs'.

Bill Lurie


I noticed that in one log it says the Norton AntiVirus files failed to
load but in the other log it says they loaded okay. Since NAV will load
before anyone can login (it is an NT service), a couple thoughts come to
mind.

As noted in my prior post, have you tried to boot into Safe mode when
using the cloned drive? Perhaps NAV won't get loaded and get beyond
those failures. I can't remember if NAV loads even in Safe mode.

Apparently you do not have the Recovery Console installed (so either you
have a bogus entry still in boot.ini or it got removed already). If you
had Recovery Console mode, you could boot into it and use the 'listsvc'
commmand to list them and use 'disable' command to disable the NAV
service (so they don't start on the next normal boot). See the
following KB article:

How to Disable a Service or Device that Prevents Windows from
Booting
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=244905


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  #58  
Old June 4th 04, 11:41 PM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
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Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

I haven't used it in a long time but I always thought Ghost was a great
product.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"Cakersq" wrote in message
...
The only tool I would ever use for backing up a drive is Norton or
Symantec Ghost. It takes care of the MBR, partitions, files, and even can
skip corrupted files.

If you need another FixMBR tool, there is one on any Windows 98 or Win98SE
boot disk or CD. The command to use if FDISK /MBR.



  #59  
Old June 4th 04, 11:41 PM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

Yeah but aren't we just modifying the bootstrap? I agree, deleting the
partition does not touch the bootstrap. Of course, if I extend my thinking
on this, it doesn't have to touch the bootstrap or MBR. If you've modified
so that the bootstrap or MBR is looking for something that doesn't exist in
this particular image, that would explain the error William was getting. In
other words, the MBR is set to look for something that isn't in the image.

I know he's going to bust my chops on that because he'll say it's an exact
image but that is what I have been telling him. The hal or the hash is
different because of the changed hardware configuration, hence he gets a
missing or corrupt HAL.dll warning as he described. That means he's bumping
right into XP's anti-piracy scheme as I had surmised. He made an image of a
setup that was not installed when the other hard drive was also connected to
the system. When he restores the image, XP thinks it's a different
computer.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"*Vanguard*"
wrote in message ...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in
:
snip
If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the
MBR is gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the
image you created of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it
restores the image.


Deleting a partition only updates the partition table (which is after
the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR, or sector 0). Deleting a
partition does NOT touch the bootstrap program! That's why you can
still use that bootstrap program on that drive after deleting, changing,
or moving partitions whether using PartitionMagic, DriveImage, or FDISK
(without using its undocumented /MBR parameter).




  #60  
Old June 4th 04, 11:41 PM
Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default FIXMBR redux

"I assume that
I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure
they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me
anything."

Yes.

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

"William B. Lurie" wrote in message
...
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder.

NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even
on the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that
ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by
the system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they
result in "load failures."

Thank you, Michael. I couldn't have guessed that that would
be what the log is stored as. But I find such a file on the
bootable drive and on the non-bootable drive. I assume that
I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure
they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me
anything. If you care to look at one, I've stored the bad
one on my website as

http://bellsouthpwp.net/billurie/b/i/ntbtlog.txt

but it is *very* lengthy....about 870KB. It starts out
with several dozen successful calls, followed by pages of
unsuccessful one. Perhaps you'd care to give it a quick
glance and tell me if you think it's likely to be fruitful.
Bill L.



 




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