Email Info BackUp ?!

In message , Mayayana
writes:
[]
I half expect that it
won't be long before I'm stopped on the street for
not having a computer phone. Soon it will be

(-: )-:
[]
It's quickly getting to a
place where privacy will be cause for suspicion.

That's another one for my quotes file. (Except I think you're a bit late
- it already is in many people's mind. [I was going to say minds, but
they all share the one.])

(As Eric Schmidt of Google said: If you need privacy
then maybe you're doing something you shouldn't be.
He should know. Schmidt famously got a condo with
no doorman to make sure no one would be around to
gossip about his promiscuous sex life.)

(-:
[]
There's no entity that stands to benefit from common
decency except you. Today I saw an encouraging thing,
though:
Tim Berner's-Lee is proposing a "magna carta of the
Internet", to officially establish a right to privacy and
access for everyone in the world. That sounds nice.

Go Tim.

If we don't do something it will all be commercially
owned very soon.

Yes, lethargy will indeed cause that. (Commercially and government, that
is.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"He who will not reason is a bigot;
he who cannot is a fool;
he who dares not is a slave."
- Sir William Drummond

Above all things, use your mind.
Don't be that bigot, fool, or slave.

Bill in Co wrote:
Roger Blake wrote:
On 2018-11-05, Bill in Co wrote:
I think there might be another reason. If you want easy accessibility
of all your local email from any of your computers, no matter where you
are - and especially if you are mobile, how are you going to readily do
it without using webmail?

I've been doing that for decades, since well before "thuh web" even
existed, by connecting a terminal session to a Unix host. Email is then
accessed via a text-based program run from the shell. Still do it that
way. No webmail required. (In the old days it would be via dialup modem.
Today ssh is the ticket.)

Well, I did say "readily". :-) I'm figuring the typical user doesn't have
access to that.

So, just thinking about someone who owns a couple of Windows computers,cell
phones, and Android tablets, and perhaps travels a bit, IF one doesn't use
webmail, it sure seems to me it would be a bit limiting for them.
Well, I did say "readily". :-) I'm figuring the typical user doesn't have
access to that.

Webmail (client) or no webmail (client) isn't the issue. The issue is
whether the mail is stored on the user's computer or on some mail
server(s).

I.e. if these Windows computers, cell phones and Android tablets all
use IMAP for any and all accounts, the mail can be accessed by all these
devices without the need for 'webmail'.

When Mayayana used the term 'webmail' he actually meant - see his
later correction - 'sleazy mail provider'. I.e. your - completely legit
- ISP/MSP might be offering a 'webmail' *client*, but that's not what
Mayayana is concerned about. Mayayana is concerned about the 'sleazy
mail provider's, such as Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail, whatever. Even if you
do not use a webmail *client* with these providers, but use a local POP
or IMAP client, they're still 'sleazy'.

So that leaves the issue of whether or not to leave your email on the
servers of 'sleazy mail provider's.

If you use POP, you don't leave it on their servers (but *they* might
still keep it), but you don't have access to your mail from your other
computers/devices (unless you set up some not-so-straightforward POP
configurations).

If you don't leave it on their servers - i.e. you use POP -, but still
want access to your mail from all your computers/devices, then things
become more complex. Roger mentioned a solution. If one of your
computers is always/mostly up, another solution is to store all your
mail on a local server which aggregates all your mail accounts. One such
server is Hamster. I use Hamster to aggregate articles from my News
providers, but it can do the same for email. The 'trick' is that to your
mail servers Hamster looks like a (POP/IMAP) client and to your email
clients, Hamster looks lik a (POP/IMAP) server.

Also some NAS (Network Attached Storage) devices can have a mail
server and can be accessed via the Internet. If you use such a setup,
only the NAS has to be up all/most of the time.

Etc., etc. So there are many solutions Some simpler than others. And
of course each with its advantages and disadvantages.

"Ken Blake" wrote

| Having said that I don't particularly like Thunderbird, I'll add that
| I don't hate it; in my view, it's considerably better than any
| web-based e-mail.

Perhaps you should qualify that: Your choice is $30.
For *free* email/newsgroups the only reasonable choices
I've ever found are OE and TB. Windows Mail may be
OK. I haven't tried it. I set up TB for friends. It's hard
to argue with free for that. It does everything anyone
is likely to want. The GUI and general design are
clunky, but it works fine once it's set up.

On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:59:55 -0700, "Bill in Co"
wrote:

Mayayana wrote:
"mechanic" wrote

... And of course I'd also agree with everyone else:
Never, under any circumstances, use webmail.

That seems a bit harsh. Email service providers can include secure
storage and communication in their package, and whether the messages
are accessed by IMAP or webmail makes no difference to that.

Note the smiley. It was a joke because he
got several responses telling him he should get
off the webmail.

Nevertheless, personally I wouldn't use webmail
and do think the only reason to use it is
inability or unwilling laziness about setting up a
client(s).


That's largely right, but there's one other reason that applies to
some people--not realizing they have the choice of using an e-mail
program.


I think there might be another reason. If you want easy accessibility of
all your local email from any of your computers, no matter where you are -
and especially if you are mobile, how are you going to readily do it without
using webmail?


It's easy. I do it all the time when I travel. You can (but don't have
to) use IMAP, and install an e-mail program on all your devices.

As I think I said in another message in this thread, before wi-fi was
readily available in most hotels, I used to use web-based e-mail on
public computers that I rented by the hour. Now I do e-mail with an
e-mail program on my smart phone in my hotel room.


And I don't even use IMAP. I just set my phone's e-mail program
(Bluemail) not to delete messages when I read them. I want them to
still be there when I return home.


I guess the only way is if you have everything somehow
perfectly networked together, no matter where you are, but I can see some
potential limitations even in this approach.


Not at all necessary.


That said, I don't know
anything about IMAP, and maybe that gets around some of those limitations.


Yes. Gets around *all* of them.


(I'm just using OE locally here, with a POP3, ISP account, so I just don't
know).


Outlook Express? On Windows 7? It's not available, but OE Classic, a
third-party clone of it, is.

On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 16:40:41 -0700, "Bill in Co"
wrote:

Roger Blake wrote:
On 2018-11-05, Bill in Co wrote:
I think there might be another reason. If you want easy accessibility
of all your local email from any of your computers, no matter where you
are - and especially if you are mobile, how are you going to readily do
it without using webmail?

I've been doing that for decades, since well before "thuh web" even
existed, by connecting a terminal session to a Unix host. Email is then
accessed via a text-based program run from the shell. Still do it that
way. No webmail required. (In the old days it would be via dialup modem.
Today ssh is the ticket.)

Well, I did say "readily". :-) I'm figuring the typical user doesn't have
access to that.

So, just thinking about someone who owns a couple of Windows computers,cell
phones, and Android tablets, and perhaps travels a bit, IF one doesn't use
webmail, it sure seems to me it would be a bit limiting for them.


As I just said in another message in this thread, not, it's not at all
limiting. It's easy. I do it all the time.

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 20:10:10 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:


I'd agree with the others who say do try a real email client. (And for
long enough to see the difference - two or three weeks at least, I'd
say.)


Yes, two or three weeks, at least. I'd like to stress that again. It's
far too often that someone tries a piece of software for just a few
minutes, decides he doesn't like it, and switches away from it. It
takes some time to get to know a piece of software, learn how to use
it, and find and set all its options the way you like it.

Very true.

Thunderbird is IMO a good compromise between best and
well-supported - a lot of ISPs, for example, have instructions specific
to setting it up with them, probably including yours.



I've tried Thunderbird, and don't particularly like it. We're all
different and have different ways of working and different likes and
dislikes. That's why it's best to try, not just one, but a few e-mail
programs.

Although our reluctant victim is unlikely to be willing to spend the
requisite two or three weeks trying each of several email prog.s, given
he hasn't as yet agreed with us that webmail leaves something to be
desired.

Having said that I don't particularly like Thunderbird, I'll add that
I don't hate it; in my view, it's considerably better than any
web-based e-mail.

(In reply to Mayayana's followup that "Your choice is $30" - I don't see
in Ken's post what his choice is; but you may have seen his choice
expressed in other posts. Perhaps I should have said for a _free_
email/news client, I think TB is a good compromise between good and
widely-supported.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Religion is a name for opinion that cannot be argued about. [Heard on Radio 4,
2010-10-18, 9:xx.]

On 11/5/2018 10:58 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 11/5/18 6:20 AM, wrote:

Why not backup your entire system?Â* See my
http://www.rossde.com/computer/computer_backup.html.

Indeed a possibility, but I just didn't want all the trouble.

I do keep regular backups of critical stuff ( docs, spreadsheats,
passwords, music mp3s, developed softeare programs, other special
programs, etc. ).

I have found system backups useful several times, when the system became
unbootable. Maybe I needed a new hard disk

With all of the replies here it is obvious that there are many different
requirements depending on individual circumstances.

Primary:
There is NO BACKUP unless there are at lest TWO independent copies of
the info.

I am also an Optimum user and I travel. Win 7 Desktop at home and iPad
and iPhone while away. I use Gmail web-mail because IMO it has the best
spam filters and message filters which Optimum does not offer. My
contact list is on my D/T AND iDevices. While home my d/t is backed up
nightly to NAS and includes contacts. While traveling, if needed, I can
access NAS over the net. Primary email access is thru FireFox. Secondary
on D/T is Thunderbird IMAP.

iCloud can be configured to copy contacts if you want a suspender to go
with your belt but there is NO back up without at least two copies.
--
Zaidy036

On 11/5/18 10:43 AM, Wolf K wrote:

[snip]

You can even copy to another OS. At least I've copied between Windows
and Linux.

Er, I think that's what's implied in "... copy to ... any new device."

It will work for the same same device (backup or dual boot system) too.

But thanks for making it explicit.

Only caveat: profiles.ini, which points to the current profile on
Windows, is done differently on other OSs.

[...]

Best,

Path names are in a different format. For one thing, drive letters are
Windows-specific.

I don't copy profiles.ini I copy the contents of the selected profile
directory.

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On 11/5/18 11:05 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

Webmail can be convenient when you have to use a different computer (or
let someone else use yours to check mail), although IMAP with a mail
program is better (including getting to make your own backups).


Back in the days before wi-fi access in hotels was common, when I
traveled I used to use public computers for e-mail. So I would use
webmail then. But those days are long gone: it's been years since I
needed to do that.

You would if you didn't have your own device with you, and that CAN happen.

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On 11/5/18 11:43 AM, Mayayana wrote:
[snip]

I once tried to figure out how to just get the
server name, port and TLS status for a given email
server programmatically. (An MSA. The server that
client email programs talk to.) I finally had to give up.
There's no standardized, dependable way to call
xyz.com and ask how to send an email through them,
much less how to retrieve email from them.

Once when I helped someone set up an internet connection, the ISP
insisted she use webmail (likely because of the ads, and they inserted
spam into every outgoing message). I figured out how to use POP (IIRC,
prepend 'mail.' to the domain name, and use the normal ports).

[snip]

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On 11/5/18 2:10 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[snip]

I'd agree with the others who say do try a real email client. (And for
long enough to see the difference - two or three weeks at least, I'd
say.) Thunderbird is IMO a good compromise between best and
well-supported - a lot of ISPs, for example, have instructions specific
to setting it up with them, probably including yours.

I wish they'd include a simple listing of the relevant settings, as well
as the overcomplicated program-specific ones.

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On 11/5/18 2:14 PM, mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 11:44:23 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

... And of course I'd also agree with everyone else:
Never, under any circumstances, use webmail.

That seems a bit harsh. Email service providers can include secure
storage and communication in their package, and whether the messages
are accessed by IMAP or webmail makes no difference to that.

Webmail does provide the ISP an opportunity to make you see more ads, I
wouldn't say never use it, but a real email program is much better.

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 11:03:45 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 11/5/18 11:05 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

Webmail can be convenient when you have to use a different computer (or
let someone else use yours to check mail), although IMAP with a mail
program is better (including getting to make your own backups).


Back in the days before wi-fi access in hotels was common, when I
traveled I used to use public computers for e-mail. So I would use
webmail then. But those days are long gone: it's been years since I
needed to do that.

You would if you didn't have your own device with you, and that CAN happen.


Can? Yes. Likely? No, not all? The device I use for e-mail when I
travel is my smart phone, and I always have it with me.

On 11/6/18 10:37 AM, Zaidy036 wrote:

[snip]

Primary:
There is NO BACKUP unless there are at lest TWO independent copies of
the info.

True. Better with at least one offline at all times (can be accomplished
with two sets of media, used alternately).

[snip]

--
49 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a happy, mentally healthy
child is: KEEP HIM OR HER AS FAR AWAY FROM A CHURCH AS YOU CAN." [Frank
Zappa]

On Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:03:42 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 20:10:10 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:


I'd agree with the others who say do try a real email client. (And for
long enough to see the difference - two or three weeks at least, I'd
say.)


Yes, two or three weeks, at least. I'd like to stress that again. It's
far too often that someone tries a piece of software for just a few
minutes, decides he doesn't like it, and switches away from it. It
takes some time to get to know a piece of software, learn how to use
it, and find and set all its options the way you like it.

Very true.

Thunderbird is IMO a good compromise between best and
well-supported - a lot of ISPs, for example, have instructions specific
to setting it up with them, probably including yours.

I've tried Thunderbird, and don't particularly like it. We're all
different and have different ways of working and different likes and
dislikes. That's why it's best to try, not just one, but a few e-mail
programs.

Although our reluctant victim is unlikely to be willing to spend the
requisite two or three weeks trying each of several email prog.s, given
he hasn't as yet agreed with us that webmail leaves something to be
desired.


His choice entirely.


Having said that I don't particularly like Thunderbird, I'll add that
I don't hate it; in my view, it's considerably better than any
web-based e-mail.

(In reply to Mayayana's followup that "Your choice is $30" - I don't see


There are several good free e-mail programs available. Here's on
listing of a few
https://www.lifewire.com/top-free-wi...ograms-1174215

and a Google search will find more. Also I think Windows Live Mail
isn't too bad.




in Ken's post what his choice is; but you may have seen his choice


I use Outlook 2016, although it's not free.


expressed in other posts. Perhaps I should have said for a _free_
email/news client, I think TB is a good compromise between good and
widely-supported.)