TIFF files from scanner

I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

--
Thank you,
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 12:06 PM, Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

I would recommend a visit to a photography forum like this:
http://photo.net/learn/raw/.

The problem may be with the scanner. Maybe
the manual will say something. But if you want
good scans you shouldn't let the scanner save
files, anyway. That's a hokey approach. Any
decent graphic software can import from a scanner
(typically something like File - Import - TWAIN)
and give you the scan data to edit/save as you like.
The printer/scanner install should have also installed
an applet that will provide a UI from your graphic
editor, where you can choose color options, PPI,
etc.

In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2015-08-09 12:06, Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning

(I presume this is a laser multifunction; AFAIK, there hasn't been an
inkjet one that isn't colour everywhere for some time.)

function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

When you say "it", I presume you mean either some scanning utility that
came with the scanner, or operating the scanner independently of the
computer, to a memory card, USB stick, or similar. (If you're still
"about to buy", how did you test it - did the shop you're going to buy
it from let you?)

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)

There is probably a setting somewhere that lets you choose between
greyscale (or even two-level) TIFF and colour TIFF.

Incidentally, sepia photographs _are_ monochrome: scanning them in
colour just to get the brown colour is probably not optimum.

and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

See above. Though if the TIFF one also looked "harsh and muddy" even if
you try tinting them back to sepia (did you try that?), there's probably
a setting that needs attention somewhere. JPEG _would_ degrade the
images, though on a single conversion and at a high quality setting,
probably in a way you'd have to zoom in on and look hard to see. PDF is
just a wrapper.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Then in theory avoid JPEG - use BMP, PNG, or even GIF.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

TIFF/JPEG/PDF are just the output formats. You need to know what the
scan settings were when you selected these output formats.

Indeed. I would _hope_ that the scanner sends the information to the PC
as raw (roughly, BMP) pixel data, and it's whatever you then use to save
them that determines what format you save them in. If a standalone
scanning application came with the scanner, that _might_ only offer
those three formats, in which case I'd avoid it; the installation
process should install a TWAIN driver, which should then allow you to
use the scanner from any image editor - IrfanView, Paint Shop Pro,
whatever - into which it would dump the image, and from which you could
then save however you like. IME (though not that of some others here),
the softwares that come with cameras and scanners is either just not
very good, or at least quirky to use: I tend to ignore it, and just use
the scanner driver from within (usually) IrfanView. The two exceptions
are that sometimes it makes OCR easier, and:

The scanning software that comes with Canon scanners and multi-function
machines allows selection of colour/b&w, and adjustment of contrast,
levels, etc. It's pretty good. I use XnView (free) most of the time for
tweaking the scans, highly recommended.

_if_ that works by actually changing the actual illumination levels
inside the scanner, then that is indeed something you can't do any other
way. If it just does it by manipulating the image data afterwards, then
any reasonable image editing prog. can do that. (I've recently had this
discussion with regard to film and slide "scanners" [mostly really just
cameras-in-a-box, unless you get into very expensive and slow ones];
Wolverine, for example, did confirm to me that the brightness adjustment
their "scanners" offer really is done by varying the LED brightness, but
the colour tweaking is just done by image data manipulation afterwards.)

I decided a standalone scanner was a better choice than a
multi-function, bought a Canon 9000F Mark II. I did buy a
multi-function

Ah, I think that's one of the ones with very good resolution, and also
holders (and possibly backlights?) for slides/negatives.

colour printer (Canon MG2500), but for the printing, not the scanning.

(Yes, it's hard to find a printer these days that _hasn't_ got a scanner
on top of it!)

If colour scanning matters to you, I suggest a Canon or Epson
standalone.

HTH

If scanning small prints, and portability, is, then I'd recommend one of
the portable feedthrough ones. (I obtained one such for genealogy,
thinking it'd be better when visiting frail relatives not to have to set
up a PC - or large flatbed scanner - to do them, though it hasn't
arisen. Though a side-effect I hadn't thought of is that one of my
feedthrough scanners can scan long narrow documents - such as UK birth
certificates from before a certain date - that are too long for most
flatbeds.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I think we'd all qualify for Heaven - even Richard Dawkins, if only to
severely p*ss him off. Imagine? An eternity of knowing you were wrong.
- Nick Odell, in UMRA 2011-5-22

Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

In my experience, TIFF files are most used for faxing, PDF for sending
files other than simple text files. JPEG files are the goto for
photos. They are compact for storage and there are many programs to
crop, shrink the size and other manipulations.

--
GW Ross

Join the army, meet interesting
people, and kill them.

On Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:06:35 -0500, Jo-Anne
wrote:

I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers.


Not a response to your question, but a quick comment: I'm always
against buying multifunction devices like that. I prefer separate
devices, so if one component fails, I don't have to replace all of
them.

| Not a response to your question, but a quick comment: I'm always
| against buying multifunction devices like that. I prefer separate
| devices, so if one component fails, I don't have to replace all of
| them.

I would have said the same thing several years ago,
but last time I needed a printer, an Epson 3in1 was one
of the cheapest options. And the cheapest scanners
have been very good for many years now. It's expensive
to get a good photo printer, but for basic printing and
any scanning, there just isn't any need to spend a lot
of money.

Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax machine

Which modelno specifically?

--
Mike Easter

On 8/9/2015 12:23 PM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:06:35 -0500, Jo-Anne
wrote:

I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers.


Not a response to your question, but a quick comment: I'm always
against buying multifunction devices like that. I prefer separate
devices, so if one component fails, I don't have to replace all of
them.


Thank you, Ken. I agree with your take on multifunction machines in
general, but in this case it's a high-end office machine with a service
contract and should hold up well. (In theory, too, if one element goes,
the others should continue to work.)

The company I'm buying from is local and has a good reputation; I bought
my Canon copier from them 17 years ago, have been without a service
contract on it for 6 years, and only in the last couple months have had
any trouble with it. I do intend to keep my 14-year-old HP LaserJet
printer as a backup, along with the cheap printer/copier/scanner I
bought a few years ago that turns out terrible copies but would work if
needed.

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 1:20 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax machine

Which modelno specifically?


ImageRunner Advance 4225--a monster of a machine, probably much more
than I need, but it should have excellent output, be very flexible, and
last a long time. The Canon high-end copier I bought 17 years ago
stopped producing good prints only in the last couple months.

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 12:06 PM, G. Ross wrote:
Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

In my experience, TIFF files are most used for faxing, PDF for sending
files other than simple text files. JPEG files are the goto for
photos. They are compact for storage and there are many programs to
crop, shrink the size and other manipulations.


Thank you! That's good to know.

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 11:24 AM, Mayayana wrote:
The problem may be with the scanner. Maybe
the manual will say something. But if you want
good scans you shouldn't let the scanner save
files, anyway. That's a hokey approach. Any
decent graphic software can import from a scanner
(typically something like File - Import - TWAIN)
and give you the scan data to edit/save as you like.
The printer/scanner install should have also installed
an applet that will provide a UI from your graphic
editor, where you can choose color options, PPI,
etc.



Thank you, Mayayana. I suspect I'll have something of a learning curve
with this new machine. Fortunately, the company is willing to set
everything up and teach me how to use it.

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 12:00 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2015-08-09 12:06, Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning

(I presume this is a laser multifunction; AFAIK, there hasn't been an
inkjet one that isn't colour everywhere for some time.)

function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

When you say "it", I presume you mean either some scanning utility that
came with the scanner, or operating the scanner independently of the
computer, to a memory card, USB stick, or similar. (If you're still
"about to buy", how did you test it - did the shop you're going to buy
it from let you?)

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)

There is probably a setting somewhere that lets you choose between
greyscale (or even two-level) TIFF and colour TIFF.

Incidentally, sepia photographs _are_ monochrome: scanning them in
colour just to get the brown colour is probably not optimum.

and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

See above. Though if the TIFF one also looked "harsh and muddy" even if
you try tinting them back to sepia (did you try that?), there's probably
a setting that needs attention somewhere. JPEG _would_ degrade the
images, though on a single conversion and at a high quality setting,
probably in a way you'd have to zoom in on and look hard to see. PDF is
just a wrapper.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Then in theory avoid JPEG - use BMP, PNG, or even GIF.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

TIFF/JPEG/PDF are just the output formats. You need to know what the
scan settings were when you selected these output formats.

Indeed. I would _hope_ that the scanner sends the information to the PC
as raw (roughly, BMP) pixel data, and it's whatever you then use to save
them that determines what format you save them in. If a standalone
scanning application came with the scanner, that _might_ only offer
those three formats, in which case I'd avoid it; the installation
process should install a TWAIN driver, which should then allow you to
use the scanner from any image editor - IrfanView, Paint Shop Pro,
whatever - into which it would dump the image, and from which you could
then save however you like. IME (though not that of some others here),
the softwares that come with cameras and scanners is either just not
very good, or at least quirky to use: I tend to ignore it, and just use
the scanner driver from within (usually) IrfanView. The two exceptions
are that sometimes it makes OCR easier, and:

The scanning software that comes with Canon scanners and
multi-function machines allows selection of colour/b&w, and adjustment
of contrast, levels, etc. It's pretty good. I use XnView (free) most
of the time for tweaking the scans, highly recommended.

_if_ that works by actually changing the actual illumination levels
inside the scanner, then that is indeed something you can't do any other
way. If it just does it by manipulating the image data afterwards, then
any reasonable image editing prog. can do that. (I've recently had this
discussion with regard to film and slide "scanners" [mostly really just
cameras-in-a-box, unless you get into very expensive and slow ones];
Wolverine, for example, did confirm to me that the brightness adjustment
their "scanners" offer really is done by varying the LED brightness, but
the colour tweaking is just done by image data manipulation afterwards.)

I decided a standalone scanner was a better choice than a
multi-function, bought a Canon 9000F Mark II. I did buy a multi-function

Ah, I think that's one of the ones with very good resolution, and also
holders (and possibly backlights?) for slides/negatives.

colour printer (Canon MG2500), but for the printing, not the scanning.

(Yes, it's hard to find a printer these days that _hasn't_ got a scanner
on top of it!)

If colour scanning matters to you, I suggest a Canon or Epson standalone.

HTH

If scanning small prints, and portability, is, then I'd recommend one of
the portable feedthrough ones. (I obtained one such for genealogy,
thinking it'd be better when visiting frail relatives not to have to set
up a PC - or large flatbed scanner - to do them, though it hasn't
arisen. Though a side-effect I hadn't thought of is that one of my
feedthrough scanners can scan long narrow documents - such as UK birth
certificates from before a certain date - that are too long for most
flatbeds.)


Thank you, John. Lots to think about. It's a laser multifunction
intended for heavy use in offices. I'll check on whether the scanner can
send raw data. The company would have brought me the machine to try for
some period of time before buying, but I opted to go to their office and
work with it there. I brought various types of things to copy/scan.

The support people are supposed to install the drivers on all my
computers and set up the machine to default to the things I use most
(although I should be able to do that myself too).

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 11:23 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2015-08-09 12:06, Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

TIFF/JPEG/PDF are just the output formats. You need to know what the
scan settings were when you selected these output formats.

The scanning software that comes with Canon scanners and multi-function
machines allows selection of colour/b&w, and adjustment of contrast,
levels, etc. It's pretty good. I use XnView (free) most of the time for
tweaking the scans, highly recommended.

I decided a standalone scanner was a better choice than a
multi-function, bought a Canon 9000F Mark II. I did buy a multi-function
colour printer (Canon MG2500), but for the printing, not the scanning.
If colour scanning matters to you, I suggest a Canon or Epson standalone.

HTH


Thank you, Wolf. I'll do some more checking on scan settings and software.

--
Jo-Anne

On 8/9/2015 11:15 AM, Al Drake wrote:
On 8/9/2015 12:06 PM, Jo-Anne wrote:
I'm about to buy a Canon multifunction copier/scanner/printer/fax
machine to be used with my Windows 7 and Windows XP computers. It
doesn't print in color, but it does scan in color. I tested the scanning
function in part with some very old small sepia photos that I had the
scanner enlarge. The files it could create were TIFF, JPEG, and PDF.

I thought TIFF was supposed to capture the most detail, but that's not
what I saw. The TIFF files showed up black and white (rather than sepia)
and looked harsh and muddy. The JPEG and PDF files seemed to capture all
the detail and keep the sepia color.

I probably would be using these files to archive the images rather than
change anything in them--but I suppose it's possible that in the future
I might want to manipulate a couple of them in some way.

Am I misunderstanding what TIFF will do? Should I save the files as
JPEGs instead?

I would recommend a visit to a photography forum like this:
http://photo.net/learn/raw/.




Thank you, Al. The photography forum info was more complex than I could
take in. I'll do some more checking with the company I'm buying from.

--
Jo-Anne