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  #1  
Old November 28th 17, 02:40 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Boris[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 529
Default Recovery/System Image

This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10
that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines,
laptops and desktops.

After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable
"Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive.

I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on
the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on.
That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset,
advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they
could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I
recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the
pc from which it was made. Which is true?

Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it
was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall
the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version
or so.

Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)"
function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The
system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named
"WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which
have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot
create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from
WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO?

Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later.


Ads
  #2  
Old November 28th 17, 05:48 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

KenW wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10
that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines,
laptops and desktops.

After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable
"Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive.

I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on
the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on.
That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset,
advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they
could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I
recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the
pc from which it was made. Which is true?

Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it
was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall
the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version
or so.

Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)"
function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The
system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named
"WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which
have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot
create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from
WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO?

Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later.


That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never
know/understand what MS does.


KenW


I've made a recovery drive, on the test machine, but when
it was finished, I can't honestly say what the advantage is.
The recovery media procedure was broken, and first I had
to fix it (reagentc) before it would work. And it took
quite a while to build a custom re-installer for the OS.

It should only capture the OS and programs or something,
to bring the OS back to its current point. But without
storing your huge movie collection. It's not a backup
as such, just a way to get the OS into some known state.
But it left me baffled as to whether I'd ever use it,
because I would appreciate a backup with my data
files included, just a little more than that.

I tossed the contents of that USB key, long ago, and
never bothered to test it on a restore.

*******

The "Windows 7 Backup" in Windows 10, *can* make DVDs.
But, when I tested that, it was a sheer hell doing it.
A minimum backup will require at least four DVDs, and
takes about 30 minutes per DVD, including the hand-holding
to "erase/format" the DVD+RW so it is acceptable to the
backup software. I was a lather of sweat when it was
done, and not all that happy. When the tray pops out
and it's thrown an error message, you have to tend
to it (format the next blank RW disk in a third-party tool),
to get the process to continue.

The critical part of a Windows 7 backup, is the
..vhd or .vhdx files in WindowsImageBackup. These are
virtual disk images, suited for usage in Hyper-V or
VirtualBox, that sort of environment. Because they
are exact copies of partitions, they can also be used
for backups. That's why Microsoft uses those formats.

If you drill down into the "WindowsImageBackup" folder
deep enough, clicking the OK box at each level,
you'll eventually get to those files.

The C: partition is one VHD. The System Reserved
wll be stored in a tiny VHD.

A .vhd can hold 2.2TB of files. Back in the actual
Windows 7 OS, those backups were limited to 2.2TB
per partition.

In the Windows 10 era, the file standard is now
..vhdx, which breaks past the 2.2TB limit and can
handle much larger partitions. So there are two file
types. The Windows 10 file type of .vhdx helps
with very large disks. I've not run into a Windows 7 OS
user who hit the 2.2TB .vhd limit by accident.

A downside, is fewer utilities can *open* a .vhdx
for random access. So while Windows 10 makes .vhdx
in the WindowsImageBackup folder, they may not be
quite as accessible for random access if you
take the backup drive to some other Windows
computer (like a WinXP machine).

For example, a modern version of 7ZIP, can burrow
into a .vhd file from Windows 7 OS, and get back a
single file for your viewing pleasure. But 7ZIP
doesn't open .vhdx. I'm not sure whether VirtualBox
even supports it. So in a sense, the .vhdx file
is kinda isolated, mountable in Windows 10, maybe
mountable in Hyper-V, for access. But may not be
all that available in third-party tools.

Another thing to watch on the .vhdx format, is it
supports "differencing". You might spot a 20KB
"empty" .vhdx, next to a 20GB .vhdx. You need *both*
those files, to have a complete copy. If a tool
generates a "differencing disk" as its native format,
the 20GB file is referenced to the 20KB file, and
a restoration tool needs to see both files, to know
what to do. The .vhd from Windows 7 on the other hand,
doesn't have that 20KB file sitting next to it.

Paul
  #3  
Old November 28th 17, 04:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Dave Cohen[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default Recovery/System Image

On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:20:14 -0700, KenW wrote:

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10
that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines,
laptops and desktops.

After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable
"Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive.

I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files)
on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used
on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh,
reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that
they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I
recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on
the pc from which it was made. Which is true?

Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it
was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this
reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved
up a version or so.

Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)"
function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The
system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named
"WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of
which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10)
cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would
reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as
an ISO?

Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions
later.


That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never
know/understand what MS does.


KenW


Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of
stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try.
Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother.
Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine.
  #4  
Old November 28th 17, 10:12 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

Dave Cohen wrote:


Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of
stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try.
Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother.
Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine.


If you move the WindowsImageBackup folder somewhere else,
you can overcome the over-write problem. You could simply
change the name to include a datestamp say, to make a
"management" solution.

Obviously that's not the easier way to manage backups,
but it is an option if you're one of those "I will not
use non-Microsoft software" people :-) There are some
people who would *only* use that Windows 7 backup feature.

And you can restore by booting your installer DVD or
emergency boot CD, and do the restore of C: from there.
That's how you can "have an OS" while the restore runs - the
OS comes from a CD or DVD you booted with.

Paul
  #5  
Old November 29th 17, 08:36 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

Paul wrote:
KenW wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows
10 that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such
machines, laptops and desktops.

After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually
enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB
flash drive.

I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup
files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were
later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools
(refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10
pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version
of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive
can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true?

Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which
it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this
reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since
moved up a version or so.

Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)"
function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive.
The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named
"WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of
which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10)
cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would
reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation
as an ISO?

Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions
later.


That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never
know/understand what MS does.


KenW


I've made a recovery drive, on the test machine, but when
it was finished, I can't honestly say what the advantage is.
The recovery media procedure was broken, and first I had
to fix it (reagentc) before it would work. And it took
quite a while to build a custom re-installer for the OS.

It should only capture the OS and programs or something,
to bring the OS back to its current point. But without
storing your huge movie collection. It's not a backup
as such, just a way to get the OS into some known state.
But it left me baffled as to whether I'd ever use it,
because I would appreciate a backup with my data
files included, just a little more than that.

I tossed the contents of that USB key, long ago, and
never bothered to test it on a restore.


I found the recovery drive I made using "recoverydrive.exe"
on Windows 10. It contains the OS, but not Program Files folder.
And not user files. The only account mentioned in there is
the "Default" account.

So that looks like the barest of copied of a running OEM OS,
presumably with Store Apps getting backed up, but not
Win32 applications.

For my purposes, there would be little difference between
that USB stick, and just downloading a copy of Windows 10.

Paul
  #6  
Old December 10th 17, 04:25 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Recovery/System Image

On 11/28/17 8:04 AM, Dave Cohen wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:20:14 -0700, KenW wrote:

On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris
wrote:

This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10
that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines,
laptops and desktops.

After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable
"Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive.

I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files)
on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used
on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh,
reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that
they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I
recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on
the pc from which it was made. Which is true?

Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it
was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this
reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved
up a version or so.

Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)"
function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The
system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named
"WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of
which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10)
cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would
reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as
an ISO?

Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions
later.


That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never
know/understand what MS does.


KenW


Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of
stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try.
Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother.
Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine.


Back when I was given a Windows 7 computer, I'd never used W7 before, so
I did a lot of "playing around" with it, before eventually giving it
away. And, that included the backup system.

I don't dig deep like Paul does, I like to see how things would work for
the average John or Jane Doe.

With that being said, my system images were always of the entire drive,
not just a selected partition or two. Obviously, that included the OEM
Recovery partition. I looked at it as if the image would be used if
there was a hard drive failure, and you had to install a new drive.

And, it works. At least the W7 does, I've not tried the extensive
testing on W8.1 or W10. But, there are some things you need to be aware
of *before* you do your first backup. And, I've never seen what I'm
about to write anywhere to date.

1. I only did DVDs a couple of times, and as Paul noted, it takes time.
The majority of my testing was done using an external USB hard drive.

2. That overwrite message you get will scare the Hell out of you. But,
not once was a previous image overwritten. That's because the Windows
system *appends* new images to the file on the drive. You will not know
this until you boot from the System Repair disk, which you should have
made when prompted to after the first image, and select to reinstall an
image. After you walk through the various steps, you'll reach a point
where the prompt is to use the latest image, or choose another image.
When you choose another image, you'll find X images for you to choose from.

3. So, the common impression most have, of the 2nd image process
overwriting the 1st image, is erroneous. Caveat... I did not do enough
images to see what would happen when the free space is insufficient for
the next image.

4. You need to keep a written log of when an image is made, general
contents, whatever you would like to know at a later date. Why?
Because when you go to restore an image, MS, in their infinite wisdom,
didn't think you needed to see any information in plain language. All
you'll see, IIRC, is a cell with a bunch of cryptic numbers and letters
displayed. You would probably have to send them to Bletchley Park and
have the cryptologists decipher it. So, you need that written list that
is in chronological order in order to pick the correct image you want to
use to restore the system.

That being said, I don't recommend it either, except in 2 instances.
When the machine and/or the OS install is new and updated, I would burn
a set of DVDs to use with the System repair disk. If you were doing a
fresh set of software installs also, I would make a 2nd image at that
point, again to DVDs. I can't see wasting a hard drive just for these
two images.

After that, I also would use Macrium Reflect. I've tried a couple of
backup programs that have a much simpler UI, but eventually an image
would fail to reinstall.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #7  
Old December 11th 17, 06:30 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/28/17 8:04 AM, Dave Cohen wrote:


Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of
stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try.
Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother.
Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine.


Back when I was given a Windows 7 computer, I'd never used W7 before, so
I did a lot of "playing around" with it, before eventually giving it
away. And, that included the backup system.

I don't dig deep like Paul does, I like to see how things would work for
the average John or Jane Doe.

With that being said, my system images were always of the entire drive,
not just a selected partition or two. Obviously, that included the OEM
Recovery partition. I looked at it as if the image would be used if
there was a hard drive failure, and you had to install a new drive.

And, it works. At least the W7 does, I've not tried the extensive
testing on W8.1 or W10. But, there are some things you need to be aware
of *before* you do your first backup. And, I've never seen what I'm
about to write anywhere to date.

1. I only did DVDs a couple of times, and as Paul noted, it takes time.
The majority of my testing was done using an external USB hard drive.

2. That overwrite message you get will scare the Hell out of you. But,
not once was a previous image overwritten. That's because the Windows
system *appends* new images to the file on the drive. You will not know
this until you boot from the System Repair disk, which you should have
made when prompted to after the first image, and select to reinstall an
image. After you walk through the various steps, you'll reach a point
where the prompt is to use the latest image, or choose another image.
When you choose another image, you'll find X images for you to choose from.

3. So, the common impression most have, of the 2nd image process
overwriting the 1st image, is erroneous. Caveat... I did not do enough
images to see what would happen when the free space is insufficient for
the next image.

4. You need to keep a written log of when an image is made, general
contents, whatever you would like to know at a later date. Why? Because
when you go to restore an image, MS, in their infinite wisdom, didn't
think you needed to see any information in plain language. All you'll
see, IIRC, is a cell with a bunch of cryptic numbers and letters
displayed. You would probably have to send them to Bletchley Park and
have the cryptologists decipher it. So, you need that written list that
is in chronological order in order to pick the correct image you want to
use to restore the system.

That being said, I don't recommend it either, except in 2 instances.
When the machine and/or the OS install is new and updated, I would burn
a set of DVDs to use with the System repair disk. If you were doing a
fresh set of software installs also, I would make a 2nd image at that
point, again to DVDs. I can't see wasting a hard drive just for these
two images.

After that, I also would use Macrium Reflect. I've tried a couple of
backup programs that have a much simpler UI, but eventually an image
would fail to reinstall.


Some test results and observations:

F:\WindowsImageBackup --- system image, .vhdx per partition
F:\Waffles --- 200MB zip files, for loose file backups
F:\FileHistory --- copy of files from home directory
using no special tricks

1) System Image:

There was sufficient room to write two of these, and the second
backup overwrote the first. I tested on a small and a large
drive, to be sure I wasn't missing something. I was not offered
two points in time, when I tried to recover.

https://s7.postimg.org/t62m91jp7/Sys...age_Option.gif

It overwrites WindowsImageBackup contents, but only for a
named machine. For example, I could back up three OSes
in the same WindowsImageBackup, but I can only back up
one instance of each.

WindowsImageBackup
Huey
Duey
Louey

I tested both a small backup drive and a 1TB backup
drive, and it would still only store one instance.
The time stamp might be UTC instead of local time or
something. In this example, the machine name is WAFFLES.
And no 20KB VHDX differencing files were seen either.
Just a single file per partition. There was some
activity in System Volume Information, but it wasn't
exactly easy to look in there. I checked in there a couple
times, and one shadow file was 15GB, and later it was listed
at 46GB (even though I'd changed minimal files in that
period of time). I don't think the volume really likes
to be defragmented.

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup

12/10/2017 DIR WAFFLES

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES

12/10/2017 DIR Backup 2017-12-10 075728
12/10/2017 DIR Catalog
12/10/2017 DIR Logs
12/10/2017 16 MediaId
12/10/2017 DIR SPPMetadataCache

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Backup 2017-12-10 075728

12/10/2017 413,138,944 00012035-0000-0000-0000-d0bf17000000.vhdx
12/10/2017 23,037,214,720 00012035-0000-0000-007e-000000000000.vhdx
12/10/2017 776 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_AdditionalFilesc3b9f3c7-5e52-4d5e-8b20-19adc95a34c7.xml
12/10/2017 11,068 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Components.xml
12/10/2017 7,280 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_RegistryExcludes.xml
12/10/2017 6,498 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writer4dc3bdd4-ab48-4d07-adb0-3bee2926fd7f.xml
12/10/2017 1,488 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writer542da469-d3e1-473c-9f4f-7847f01fc64f.xml
12/10/2017 1,484 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writera6ad56c2-b509-4e6c-bb19-49d8f43532f0.xml
12/10/2017 2,940 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writerafbab4a2-367d-4d15-a586-71dbb18f8485.xml
12/10/2017 5,280 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writerbe000cbe-11fe-4426-9c58-531aa6355fc4.xml
12/10/2017 5,902 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writercd3f2362-8bef-46c7-9181-d62844cdc0b2.xml
12/10/2017 5,676,290 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writere8132975-6f93-4464-a53e-1050253ae220.xml
12/10/2017 1,276 BackupSpecs.xml

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Catalog

12/10/2017 16,916 BackupGlobalCatalog
12/10/2017 18,140 GlobalCatalog

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Logs

12/10/2017 4 Backup_Error-10-12-2017_07-57-28.log

Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\SPPMetadataCache

12/10/2017 101,584 {21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1}
12/10/2017 101,232 {8c638b60-d182-47b6-b73e-ecaa0bdd1344}
12/10/2017 101,232 {b04b28b8-0c71-4525-b769-6e43341e5aa3}
12/10/2017 98,992 {ba39ac53-eaca-43f0-a4d4-a3e33c946187}
12/10/2017 93,928 {f5b62f92-7639-473f-905b-b4fac795f572}

2) Backup your files.

https://s7.postimg.org/z929tdzyj/Backup_Your_Files.gif

The setup dialog for this, includes backing up "loose files",
stored in ~200MB ZIP containers in a certain folder. As well,
it can take a System Image, as in (1). That means, if you
choose to tick the System Image box in this interface, you could
overwrite the items in (1).

It's not clear what the loose files capability is for.
Restoring over top of your home directory makes sense,
while restoring the entire C: while the OS is running,
not so much.

The tool doesn't understand sparse files and caused me to
run out of storage space the first time. I had to "hide"
the sparse files from the backup software to finish the backup.

https://s7.postimg.org/5jp312bnv/Set_Up_Backup.gif

Example of incremental storage, three repeated backups
of the entire C drive as "loose files".

Directory of F:\WAFFLES

12/10/2017 DIR Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724
12/10/2017 528 MediaID.bin

Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724

12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 025724
12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 093055
12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 100600
12/10/2017 DIR Catalogs

Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 025724

12/10/2017 106,339,143 Backup files 1.zip
12/10/2017 194,047,487 Backup files 10.zip
12/10/2017 187,948,689 Backup files 11.zip
... (a few hundred more of these etc) ...
12/10/2017 88,220,802 Backup files 9.zip

Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 093055

12/10/2017 13,977,478 Backup files 1.zip \___ Incremental set
12/10/2017 8,388,785 Backup files 2.zip /

Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 100600

12/10/2017 34,636 Backup files 1.zip \___ Incremental set
12/10/2017 8,228,766 Backup files 2.zip /

Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Catalogs

12/10/2017 15,750,732 GlobalCatalog.wbcat

3) I turned on the File History, but for some reason,
on restore, it was picking up references to Restore Points
from a couple years ago, and would not show the newly
captured copies of my home directory.

Directory of J:\FileHistory

12/10/2017 DIR User Name

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name

12/10/2017 DIR WAFFLES

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES

12/10/2017 DIR Configuration
12/10/2017 DIR Data

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Configuration

12/10/2017 1,048,576 Catalog1.edb
12/10/2017 1,048,576 Catalog2.edb
12/10/2017 3,896 Config1.xml
12/10/2017 3,897 Config2.xml

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data

12/10/2017 DIR $OF
12/10/2017 DIR C

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF

12/10/2017 DIR 258
12/10/2017 DIR 261

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF\258

08/01/2016 34,187,495 259 (2017_12_10 17_27_53 UTC).msu --- where did
these come
Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF\261 from ???
Date value ???
08/01/2016 25,215,211 262 (2017_12_10 17_27_53 UTC).msu

Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\C\Users\User Name

12/10/2017 DIR Contacts
12/10/2017 DIR Desktop
12/10/2017 DIR Documents
12/10/2017 DIR Downloads
...

So (1) overwrites, (2) and (3) keep separate storage spaces
at least.

*******

Your claim #2, that the System Image VHDX files are appended.

I wasn't able to verify that here. I tried a couple times,
and no matter what I did, only one point in time
was offered for recovery. I even used a larger partition,
so it wasn't a space issue.

I *do* see evidence of differencing going on, to support
your claim. When I ran a System Image again, on my test C:,
I noticed read operations at 200MB/sec on C: . But
I also saw "mostly reads" at 200MB/sec on the backup drive.
Which means, on the second backup, it was comparing something
on the two drives to figure out the difference. But, why isn't
that showing up when I use my 16299 rescue CD ? I only see one
version of VHDX offered for restoration, not two.

I also noticed later, that the volume was growing,
and System Volume Information ended up with a 46GB file.
I had a file system problem, and after working on
it for 8 hours, I shrank the volume (not thinking
about the shadow copy that was live in SVI), and
the system effectively erased (undid) some of the
incrementals I was trying. So whatever you do, if
you're using that external disk for Windows 7 backups,
*don't* do any significant shrinks to the external
disk partition.

It's possible if you bought the commercial version
of Macrium, and used Incrementals Forever or the like,
the usage of shadows for that purpose might also result
in similar symptoms. I would expect any developer doing
incrementals, to be using shadows to track them, and
not some more robust method.

Anyway, that was enough fun for a revisit, and
it taught me that you couldn't pay me to use
this method :-)

And the File History. Oh boy! It was teasing me
every time I tried to use it. The very last
File History window I opened, it offered to
restore my file with "a copy from 1999". Was File
History running 18 years ago ? Sheesh. I wouldn't
mind these little jokes from MS, if that File
History dialog had actually offered a file
version from Dec.2017.

Paul
  #8  
Old December 20th 17, 05:04 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Recovery/System Image

Hi, Paul,

As everyone can see, I snipped all of the previous message. It was just
going to make this whole message horribly long.

Hi, Paul,

First, an apology.

I completely forgot to monitor this thread for a reply, so I didn't see
your reply for about a week. My apologies for that.

After reading your reply, it was making no sense to me at all, so I did
some testing on 7, 8.1, and 10. And what I was coming up with wasn't
making much sense to me, especially the screenshot in section 1, which
doesn't match mine. More on this later.

Also, I only look at this as if I was the ordinary John/Jane Doe, and
what I would see. The depth of what you posted, while interesting to
know, does not apply to what I'm looking at/for.

John/Jane Doe aren't going to be saving 3 OSes, so that's interesting,
but again, not what I'm looking at/for.

I try to emulate what John/Jane Doe would do on their one and only computer.

Only section 1 of your post applies to what I am saying. I've never set
up the Backup part on my system, I don't use it enough to make it worth
the trouble. But, I do have File History turned on, which also doesn't
apply to what I was talking about.

When I first read your message, and saw the first screenshot, I didn't
read any further. That's because your screenshot didn't match with what
I was seeing.

When I open Backup and Restore, I do not have a screen with a Windows 10
logo. My screen looks like the Windows 7 screen but with a Windows 10
UI look. Also, in your snapshot, it says Version 1709 (OS Build
16299.98) My computer is 10.0.16299 Build 16299. The info for my
system comes from MSInfo32.

I don't know why this difference, unless it possibly has to do with the
computer itself. Mine is a 13 year old Dell Optiplex 380 that came
with W7 and I used the free update to W10.

I first ran System Image on this computer last summer, and then probably
3 or 4 times for this testing. (As I proofread this, I see I ran 3
images for this testing.)

On my system image drive, when I open the WindowsImageBackup folder, I
find 2 folders. One is named DellWindows10, with a date of 7/7/2017.
The 2nd is named Dell-Windows-10, with a date of 12/19/2017. Why, I do
not know. (Proofreading comment, I do know now!! Read on.)

Open the first folder, and the Backup folder is named Backup 2017-06-28
150412, Date modified 7/1/2017. In that folder are 16 items with the
date of 6/28/2017.

2nd folder is Backup 2017-12-20 021823. In that folder, 13 items with
the date of 12/19/2017

Because Boris mentioned a Recovery Drive, I actually made one. Reading
the messages I saw on the screen, it was obvious the thumb drive goes
only to the computer that made it. But, as I suspected, the Optiplex
does not allow booting from a thumb drive.

So, I don't know how a W10 Recovery Disk actually works or looks like in
operation. Maybe someday.

So, boot from the W10 Repair Disk, which takes for freakin' ever! After
I walk through all the @$%&#& W8/10 screens asking you what to do, I
select System Image Recovery, and select Windows 10.

Finally, I end up with a dialogue that says "Select a system image
backup". I have two options, restore from the latest image, or select a
system image. The latest is dated 12/19/2017.

I select the latest. Skip the next option, which is format and
partition the disks. Then it says which image the computer will be
restored from, which happens to be the latest, by clicking Finish.

If I select the option of "Select a system image", I get the option of
selecting from 2 system images. DellWindows10 and Dell-Windows-10. And
because of the column name of the images, it dawned on me, I've got two
different folders with different names because I renamed the computer!

I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image.

But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23
PM and click on Next.

The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image
to restore"

And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times:

12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:.
12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:.
12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:.

So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image
is opened, I find 3 images to choose from.

If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting,
what is it? :-)

After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple
additional options before you tell it to install the selected image.

I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image
Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing
the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or
even if it can be done.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #9  
Old December 20th 17, 07:18 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

Ken Springer wrote:

I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image.

But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23
PM and click on Next.

The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image
to restore"

And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times:

12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:.
12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:.
12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:.

So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image
is opened, I find 3 images to choose from.

If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting,
what is it? :-)

After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple
additional options before you tell it to install the selected image.

I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image
Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing
the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or
even if it can be done.


OK, I just kept the end part there.

I've only got one observation to make here. When you use
System Image, at a minimum it backs up C: and System Reserved.
System Reserved is normally a hidden partition (type 0x27),
and should not get a drive letter.

Your first backup (2/19/2017 6:18:23 PM) has just one volume
in it. Did you use the procedure to move the contents of
System Reserved onto C: or something ? As otherwise, a
more normal situation would be a 2 volume minimum.

From my point of view, I cannot be promoting materials
like this, because the results aren't particularly
predictable. Especially my File History going nuts.
Sure, I could provide a recipe to someone, and tell
them how to run some procedure. But the downstream consequences
(rescuing them when they "get stuck"), think of
how painful that's going to be. There are just
too many loose ends. With Macrium, I can say things
like "your files probably aren't lost". I can't say that
with what I was seeing of the Microsoft stuff. I did
lose files.

*******

As to how to record the screen, you can use an HDMI
recorder card. The recorder cards have some limitations,
like 30FPS progressive.

The idea is, you use two computers. The DUT has nothing
added to it. The HDMI output of the machine you're testing,
goes through the passthru connectors on the HDMI capture
card. The capture card is plugged into a slot in the
second computer. The second computer continuously captures
video, while you try stuff on the first computer.

You can record 1920x1080 on a setup like that, but not at
60p. You can do 60i or 30p, where on the 30p, every second
progressive frame is thrown away.

At the peak of that industry, cards were around $100. I don't
know what a good screen capture card is these days, as the
market and the players have changed a bit. For a price of
$500 or more, there was at least one product capturing
at 60p, but that's not likely to support HDCP. Some of
the cards also record VGA, where your screen pixel dimensions
would be a bit smaller, and the DRM might not be
as intrusive about what you can do.

The cheapest capture cards, have HDMI in, but no HDMI out.
So they don't actually support a buffered copy for
passthru. for slightly more, the card has two connectors,
and the output of the card drives the actual LCD monitor
you're doing the demo on.

This is an example from the company that made the first
capture card of this type. Their first card, the encoder
was done in an FPGA, and it had a few issues (FPGA means
they could have reprogrammed it and fixed it). This newer
card looks more compact, implying they bought a
third party chip for the job. I wouldn't buy one of
these, until I could find reviews on Newegg or
equivalent. You can see this card has passthru, the
computer goes to one port, the LCD monitor goes to
the other port, and the card makes a video stream as
the info goes by.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/ca/...intensitypro4k

This would be a consumer version. It doesn't actually
have passthru. One connector is for an analog adapter
cable. The second connector is HDMI In. There is no
HDMI Out. You would have to buy an HDMI buffer of some
sort, with two identical HDMI outputs, to correct for
the lack of passthru. The reviews are 3 out of 5 for this.
And it's not necessarily all that much cheaper than some
other products. By the time you take some hair loss into
account.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16815100049

The intensitypro4k only got 2 our of 5 stars :-)

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16815710157

But it can work, and it should look better than your
digital camera (which would have pincushion, moire,
and so on).

For some reason, I never seem to get around to buying
one of those...

Paul
  #10  
Old December 20th 17, 05:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Recovery/System Image

On 12/19/17 11:18 PM, Paul wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:

I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image.

But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23
PM and click on Next.

The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image
to restore"

And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times:

12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:.
12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:.
12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:.

So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image
is opened, I find 3 images to choose from.

If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting,
what is it? :-)

After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple
additional options before you tell it to install the selected image.

I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image
Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing
the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or
even if it can be done.


OK, I just kept the end part there.

I've only got one observation to make here. When you use
System Image, at a minimum it backs up C: and System Reserved.
System Reserved is normally a hidden partition (type 0x27),
and should not get a drive letter.

Your first backup (2/19/2017 6:18:23 PM) has just one volume
in it. Did you use the procedure to move the contents of
System Reserved onto C: or something ? As otherwise, a
more normal situation would be a 2 volume minimum.


Unless, in the wisdom of MS, since System Reserved is a hidden
partition, they don't list hidden partitions during the reinstall
process. Just those partitions with a drive letter. Wouldn't want to
freak out John/Jane Doe with that. They probably wouldn't understand
what they were reading anyway. :-(

But that thought process falls flat when you realize that during image
creation, System Reserved and C: are checked by default and you cannot
uncheck them.

On that first W7 computer I ever saw was the only time I've actually
reinstalled the image, and everything was reinstalled, including the OEM
recovery partition.

From my point of view, I cannot be promoting materials
like this, because the results aren't particularly
predictable. Especially my File History going nuts.


Did you use the default location for File History, if there is one? on
My W10 system, D: is my
File History location, and is a separate drive.

Were the files just scrambled, or missing, or ???

If I had the time, I'd reinstall the one image that has File History,
but if it failed for me, I don't have the time to rebuild from scratch.
I could do a backup image with Macrium, but I really need to stop taking
on too many projects to play with. LOL

I'd bet most users don't know about File History, and so don't even turn
it on. Or, make a system image.

Sure, I could provide a recipe to someone, and tell
them how to run some procedure. But the downstream consequences
(rescuing them when they "get stuck"), think of
how painful that's going to be. There are just
too many loose ends. With Macrium, I can say things
like "your files probably aren't lost". I can't say that
with what I was seeing of the Microsoft stuff. I did
lose files.

*******

As to how to record the screen, you can use an HDMI
recorder card. The recorder cards have some limitations,
like 30FPS progressive.


snip

But it can work, and it should look better than your
digital camera (which would have pincushion, moire,
and so on).

For some reason, I never seem to get around to buying
one of those...


Well, this W10 computer doesn't have HDMI output. And I'd be surprised
if I could even find a card! LOL

So, I'm not going get one either. LOL


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #11  
Old December 20th 17, 09:47 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Recovery/System Image

Ken Springer wrote:


Well, this W10 computer doesn't have HDMI output. And I'd be surprised
if I could even find a card! LOL

So, I'm not going get one either. LOL


Keep the idea in mind. Maybe some day
you'll want to make a tutorial, without the
capture scheme affecting the computer or
something. Like, maybe you'll want to record
a tutorial executed on your Mac, while using the
PC to do the recording or something.

Another application for cards like that, is
capturing output from a camcorder. Some
camcorders (even my little digital camera)
have HDMI output. Say a camcorder (or even a Red 4K
camera you bought), you couldn't arrange a CODEC
for it. You may be able to get the output over HDMI.

There are also cards that support analog outputs,
but your video card (and/or OS) may not support them.
On purpose, the video card on this computer has
YPbPr, so I could do capture of that with a
card having the analog cabling. And some of
the cards may support VGA. On purpose, I didn't
buy too modern a video card, so it would still
have analog out. Just in case some day, I had
a capture card available for testing.

Paul
 




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