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#1
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Recovery/System Image
This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10
that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines, laptops and desktops. After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive. I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true? Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version or so. Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named "WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO? Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later. |
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#2
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Recovery/System Image
KenW wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris wrote: This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10 that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines, laptops and desktops. After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive. I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true? Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version or so. Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named "WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO? Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later. That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never know/understand what MS does. KenW I've made a recovery drive, on the test machine, but when it was finished, I can't honestly say what the advantage is. The recovery media procedure was broken, and first I had to fix it (reagentc) before it would work. And it took quite a while to build a custom re-installer for the OS. It should only capture the OS and programs or something, to bring the OS back to its current point. But without storing your huge movie collection. It's not a backup as such, just a way to get the OS into some known state. But it left me baffled as to whether I'd ever use it, because I would appreciate a backup with my data files included, just a little more than that. I tossed the contents of that USB key, long ago, and never bothered to test it on a restore. ******* The "Windows 7 Backup" in Windows 10, *can* make DVDs. But, when I tested that, it was a sheer hell doing it. A minimum backup will require at least four DVDs, and takes about 30 minutes per DVD, including the hand-holding to "erase/format" the DVD+RW so it is acceptable to the backup software. I was a lather of sweat when it was done, and not all that happy. When the tray pops out and it's thrown an error message, you have to tend to it (format the next blank RW disk in a third-party tool), to get the process to continue. The critical part of a Windows 7 backup, is the ..vhd or .vhdx files in WindowsImageBackup. These are virtual disk images, suited for usage in Hyper-V or VirtualBox, that sort of environment. Because they are exact copies of partitions, they can also be used for backups. That's why Microsoft uses those formats. If you drill down into the "WindowsImageBackup" folder deep enough, clicking the OK box at each level, you'll eventually get to those files. The C: partition is one VHD. The System Reserved wll be stored in a tiny VHD. A .vhd can hold 2.2TB of files. Back in the actual Windows 7 OS, those backups were limited to 2.2TB per partition. In the Windows 10 era, the file standard is now ..vhdx, which breaks past the 2.2TB limit and can handle much larger partitions. So there are two file types. The Windows 10 file type of .vhdx helps with very large disks. I've not run into a Windows 7 OS user who hit the 2.2TB .vhd limit by accident. A downside, is fewer utilities can *open* a .vhdx for random access. So while Windows 10 makes .vhdx in the WindowsImageBackup folder, they may not be quite as accessible for random access if you take the backup drive to some other Windows computer (like a WinXP machine). For example, a modern version of 7ZIP, can burrow into a .vhd file from Windows 7 OS, and get back a single file for your viewing pleasure. But 7ZIP doesn't open .vhdx. I'm not sure whether VirtualBox even supports it. So in a sense, the .vhdx file is kinda isolated, mountable in Windows 10, maybe mountable in Hyper-V, for access. But may not be all that available in third-party tools. Another thing to watch on the .vhdx format, is it supports "differencing". You might spot a 20KB "empty" .vhdx, next to a 20GB .vhdx. You need *both* those files, to have a complete copy. If a tool generates a "differencing disk" as its native format, the 20GB file is referenced to the 20KB file, and a restoration tool needs to see both files, to know what to do. The .vhd from Windows 7 on the other hand, doesn't have that 20KB file sitting next to it. Paul |
#3
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Recovery/System Image
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:20:14 -0700, KenW wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris wrote: This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10 that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines, laptops and desktops. After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive. I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true? Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version or so. Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named "WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO? Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later. That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never know/understand what MS does. KenW Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try. Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother. Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine. |
#4
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Recovery/System Image
Dave Cohen wrote:
Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try. Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother. Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine. If you move the WindowsImageBackup folder somewhere else, you can overcome the over-write problem. You could simply change the name to include a datestamp say, to make a "management" solution. Obviously that's not the easier way to manage backups, but it is an option if you're one of those "I will not use non-Microsoft software" people :-) There are some people who would *only* use that Windows 7 backup feature. And you can restore by booting your installer DVD or emergency boot CD, and do the restore of C: from there. That's how you can "have an OS" while the restore runs - the OS comes from a CD or DVD you booted with. Paul |
#5
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Recovery/System Image
Paul wrote:
KenW wrote: On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris wrote: This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10 that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines, laptops and desktops. After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive. I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true? Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version or so. Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named "WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO? Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later. That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never know/understand what MS does. KenW I've made a recovery drive, on the test machine, but when it was finished, I can't honestly say what the advantage is. The recovery media procedure was broken, and first I had to fix it (reagentc) before it would work. And it took quite a while to build a custom re-installer for the OS. It should only capture the OS and programs or something, to bring the OS back to its current point. But without storing your huge movie collection. It's not a backup as such, just a way to get the OS into some known state. But it left me baffled as to whether I'd ever use it, because I would appreciate a backup with my data files included, just a little more than that. I tossed the contents of that USB key, long ago, and never bothered to test it on a restore. I found the recovery drive I made using "recoverydrive.exe" on Windows 10. It contains the OS, but not Program Files folder. And not user files. The only account mentioned in there is the "Default" account. So that looks like the barest of copied of a running OEM OS, presumably with Store Apps getting backed up, but not Win32 applications. For my purposes, there would be little difference between that USB stick, and just downloading a copy of Windows 10. Paul |
#6
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Recovery/System Image
On 11/28/17 8:04 AM, Dave Cohen wrote:
On Mon, 27 Nov 2017 19:20:14 -0700, KenW wrote: On Tue, 28 Nov 2017 01:40:12 +0000 (UTC), Boris wrote: This relates to all pcs purchased that have OEM installs of Windows 10 that have a recovery partition. I have both HP and Dell such machines, laptops and desktops. After setting up Windows 10, I make a recovery drive, and usually enable "Back up system files to the recovery drive." I use a USB flash drive. I always thought that the recovery files (not the system backup files) on the USB flash drive were indifferent to which pc they were later used on. That is, the recovery files are troubleshooting tools (refresh, reset, advanced), etc.) that can be used on any Windows 10 pc, and that they could even be used on a non-oem installed version of Windows 10. I recently read an article that each recovery drive can only be used on the pc from which it was made. Which is true? Now, let's say I use a recovery drive on the same machine from which it was made,and I click the "Reset your PC" button. I assume this reinstall the factory version, even though I may have long since moved up a version or so. Another question...I also use the "Backup and Restore (Windows 7)" function to "Create a system image" on an external USB hard drive. The system image created on the external hard drive is a folder named "WindowsImageBackup". It contains five folders and 15 files, none of which have an .iso extension. I guess this is because Windows (10) cannot create ISOs, but can only mount them. Yes? But, would reinstalling from WindowsImageBackup get me the same reinstallation as an ISO? Thanks for any clarification, anyone. I still have more questions later. That why I always use another program to image a drive. Never know/understand what MS does. KenW Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try. Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother. Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine. Back when I was given a Windows 7 computer, I'd never used W7 before, so I did a lot of "playing around" with it, before eventually giving it away. And, that included the backup system. I don't dig deep like Paul does, I like to see how things would work for the average John or Jane Doe. With that being said, my system images were always of the entire drive, not just a selected partition or two. Obviously, that included the OEM Recovery partition. I looked at it as if the image would be used if there was a hard drive failure, and you had to install a new drive. And, it works. At least the W7 does, I've not tried the extensive testing on W8.1 or W10. But, there are some things you need to be aware of *before* you do your first backup. And, I've never seen what I'm about to write anywhere to date. 1. I only did DVDs a couple of times, and as Paul noted, it takes time. The majority of my testing was done using an external USB hard drive. 2. That overwrite message you get will scare the Hell out of you. But, not once was a previous image overwritten. That's because the Windows system *appends* new images to the file on the drive. You will not know this until you boot from the System Repair disk, which you should have made when prompted to after the first image, and select to reinstall an image. After you walk through the various steps, you'll reach a point where the prompt is to use the latest image, or choose another image. When you choose another image, you'll find X images for you to choose from. 3. So, the common impression most have, of the 2nd image process overwriting the 1st image, is erroneous. Caveat... I did not do enough images to see what would happen when the free space is insufficient for the next image. 4. You need to keep a written log of when an image is made, general contents, whatever you would like to know at a later date. Why? Because when you go to restore an image, MS, in their infinite wisdom, didn't think you needed to see any information in plain language. All you'll see, IIRC, is a cell with a bunch of cryptic numbers and letters displayed. You would probably have to send them to Bletchley Park and have the cryptologists decipher it. So, you need that written list that is in chronological order in order to pick the correct image you want to use to restore the system. That being said, I don't recommend it either, except in 2 instances. When the machine and/or the OS install is new and updated, I would burn a set of DVDs to use with the System repair disk. If you were doing a fresh set of software installs also, I would make a 2nd image at that point, again to DVDs. I can't see wasting a hard drive just for these two images. After that, I also would use Macrium Reflect. I've tried a couple of backup programs that have a much simpler UI, but eventually an image would fail to reinstall. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#7
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Recovery/System Image
Ken Springer wrote:
On 11/28/17 8:04 AM, Dave Cohen wrote: Absolutely, I tried the windows backup on windows 7, it created lots of stuff and seemed to overwrite on a 2nd try. Use macrium free version, single backup file with no fuss or bother. Macrium is the only reason I keep windows 7 on my multi boot machine. Back when I was given a Windows 7 computer, I'd never used W7 before, so I did a lot of "playing around" with it, before eventually giving it away. And, that included the backup system. I don't dig deep like Paul does, I like to see how things would work for the average John or Jane Doe. With that being said, my system images were always of the entire drive, not just a selected partition or two. Obviously, that included the OEM Recovery partition. I looked at it as if the image would be used if there was a hard drive failure, and you had to install a new drive. And, it works. At least the W7 does, I've not tried the extensive testing on W8.1 or W10. But, there are some things you need to be aware of *before* you do your first backup. And, I've never seen what I'm about to write anywhere to date. 1. I only did DVDs a couple of times, and as Paul noted, it takes time. The majority of my testing was done using an external USB hard drive. 2. That overwrite message you get will scare the Hell out of you. But, not once was a previous image overwritten. That's because the Windows system *appends* new images to the file on the drive. You will not know this until you boot from the System Repair disk, which you should have made when prompted to after the first image, and select to reinstall an image. After you walk through the various steps, you'll reach a point where the prompt is to use the latest image, or choose another image. When you choose another image, you'll find X images for you to choose from. 3. So, the common impression most have, of the 2nd image process overwriting the 1st image, is erroneous. Caveat... I did not do enough images to see what would happen when the free space is insufficient for the next image. 4. You need to keep a written log of when an image is made, general contents, whatever you would like to know at a later date. Why? Because when you go to restore an image, MS, in their infinite wisdom, didn't think you needed to see any information in plain language. All you'll see, IIRC, is a cell with a bunch of cryptic numbers and letters displayed. You would probably have to send them to Bletchley Park and have the cryptologists decipher it. So, you need that written list that is in chronological order in order to pick the correct image you want to use to restore the system. That being said, I don't recommend it either, except in 2 instances. When the machine and/or the OS install is new and updated, I would burn a set of DVDs to use with the System repair disk. If you were doing a fresh set of software installs also, I would make a 2nd image at that point, again to DVDs. I can't see wasting a hard drive just for these two images. After that, I also would use Macrium Reflect. I've tried a couple of backup programs that have a much simpler UI, but eventually an image would fail to reinstall. Some test results and observations: F:\WindowsImageBackup --- system image, .vhdx per partition F:\Waffles --- 200MB zip files, for loose file backups F:\FileHistory --- copy of files from home directory using no special tricks 1) System Image: There was sufficient room to write two of these, and the second backup overwrote the first. I tested on a small and a large drive, to be sure I wasn't missing something. I was not offered two points in time, when I tried to recover. https://s7.postimg.org/t62m91jp7/Sys...age_Option.gif It overwrites WindowsImageBackup contents, but only for a named machine. For example, I could back up three OSes in the same WindowsImageBackup, but I can only back up one instance of each. WindowsImageBackup Huey Duey Louey I tested both a small backup drive and a 1TB backup drive, and it would still only store one instance. The time stamp might be UTC instead of local time or something. In this example, the machine name is WAFFLES. And no 20KB VHDX differencing files were seen either. Just a single file per partition. There was some activity in System Volume Information, but it wasn't exactly easy to look in there. I checked in there a couple times, and one shadow file was 15GB, and later it was listed at 46GB (even though I'd changed minimal files in that period of time). I don't think the volume really likes to be defragmented. Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup 12/10/2017 DIR WAFFLES Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES 12/10/2017 DIR Backup 2017-12-10 075728 12/10/2017 DIR Catalog 12/10/2017 DIR Logs 12/10/2017 16 MediaId 12/10/2017 DIR SPPMetadataCache Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Backup 2017-12-10 075728 12/10/2017 413,138,944 00012035-0000-0000-0000-d0bf17000000.vhdx 12/10/2017 23,037,214,720 00012035-0000-0000-007e-000000000000.vhdx 12/10/2017 776 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_AdditionalFilesc3b9f3c7-5e52-4d5e-8b20-19adc95a34c7.xml 12/10/2017 11,068 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Components.xml 12/10/2017 7,280 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_RegistryExcludes.xml 12/10/2017 6,498 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writer4dc3bdd4-ab48-4d07-adb0-3bee2926fd7f.xml 12/10/2017 1,488 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writer542da469-d3e1-473c-9f4f-7847f01fc64f.xml 12/10/2017 1,484 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writera6ad56c2-b509-4e6c-bb19-49d8f43532f0.xml 12/10/2017 2,940 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writerafbab4a2-367d-4d15-a586-71dbb18f8485.xml 12/10/2017 5,280 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writerbe000cbe-11fe-4426-9c58-531aa6355fc4.xml 12/10/2017 5,902 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writercd3f2362-8bef-46c7-9181-d62844cdc0b2.xml 12/10/2017 5,676,290 21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1_Writere8132975-6f93-4464-a53e-1050253ae220.xml 12/10/2017 1,276 BackupSpecs.xml Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Catalog 12/10/2017 16,916 BackupGlobalCatalog 12/10/2017 18,140 GlobalCatalog Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\Logs 12/10/2017 4 Backup_Error-10-12-2017_07-57-28.log Directory of F:\WindowsImageBackup\WAFFLES\SPPMetadataCache 12/10/2017 101,584 {21ae1bae-451e-4a5d-af83-3d342fda4ca1} 12/10/2017 101,232 {8c638b60-d182-47b6-b73e-ecaa0bdd1344} 12/10/2017 101,232 {b04b28b8-0c71-4525-b769-6e43341e5aa3} 12/10/2017 98,992 {ba39ac53-eaca-43f0-a4d4-a3e33c946187} 12/10/2017 93,928 {f5b62f92-7639-473f-905b-b4fac795f572} 2) Backup your files. https://s7.postimg.org/z929tdzyj/Backup_Your_Files.gif The setup dialog for this, includes backing up "loose files", stored in ~200MB ZIP containers in a certain folder. As well, it can take a System Image, as in (1). That means, if you choose to tick the System Image box in this interface, you could overwrite the items in (1). It's not clear what the loose files capability is for. Restoring over top of your home directory makes sense, while restoring the entire C: while the OS is running, not so much. The tool doesn't understand sparse files and caused me to run out of storage space the first time. I had to "hide" the sparse files from the backup software to finish the backup. https://s7.postimg.org/5jp312bnv/Set_Up_Backup.gif Example of incremental storage, three repeated backups of the entire C drive as "loose files". Directory of F:\WAFFLES 12/10/2017 DIR Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724 12/10/2017 528 MediaID.bin Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724 12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 025724 12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 093055 12/10/2017 DIR Backup Files 2017-12-10 100600 12/10/2017 DIR Catalogs Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 025724 12/10/2017 106,339,143 Backup files 1.zip 12/10/2017 194,047,487 Backup files 10.zip 12/10/2017 187,948,689 Backup files 11.zip ... (a few hundred more of these etc) ... 12/10/2017 88,220,802 Backup files 9.zip Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 093055 12/10/2017 13,977,478 Backup files 1.zip \___ Incremental set 12/10/2017 8,388,785 Backup files 2.zip / Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Backup Files 2017-12-10 100600 12/10/2017 34,636 Backup files 1.zip \___ Incremental set 12/10/2017 8,228,766 Backup files 2.zip / Directory of F:\WAFFLES\Backup Set 2017-12-10 025724\Catalogs 12/10/2017 15,750,732 GlobalCatalog.wbcat 3) I turned on the File History, but for some reason, on restore, it was picking up references to Restore Points from a couple years ago, and would not show the newly captured copies of my home directory. Directory of J:\FileHistory 12/10/2017 DIR User Name Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name 12/10/2017 DIR WAFFLES Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES 12/10/2017 DIR Configuration 12/10/2017 DIR Data Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Configuration 12/10/2017 1,048,576 Catalog1.edb 12/10/2017 1,048,576 Catalog2.edb 12/10/2017 3,896 Config1.xml 12/10/2017 3,897 Config2.xml Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data 12/10/2017 DIR $OF 12/10/2017 DIR C Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF 12/10/2017 DIR 258 12/10/2017 DIR 261 Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF\258 08/01/2016 34,187,495 259 (2017_12_10 17_27_53 UTC).msu --- where did these come Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\$OF\261 from ??? Date value ??? 08/01/2016 25,215,211 262 (2017_12_10 17_27_53 UTC).msu Directory of J:\FileHistory\User Name\WAFFLES\Data\C\Users\User Name 12/10/2017 DIR Contacts 12/10/2017 DIR Desktop 12/10/2017 DIR Documents 12/10/2017 DIR Downloads ... So (1) overwrites, (2) and (3) keep separate storage spaces at least. ******* Your claim #2, that the System Image VHDX files are appended. I wasn't able to verify that here. I tried a couple times, and no matter what I did, only one point in time was offered for recovery. I even used a larger partition, so it wasn't a space issue. I *do* see evidence of differencing going on, to support your claim. When I ran a System Image again, on my test C:, I noticed read operations at 200MB/sec on C: . But I also saw "mostly reads" at 200MB/sec on the backup drive. Which means, on the second backup, it was comparing something on the two drives to figure out the difference. But, why isn't that showing up when I use my 16299 rescue CD ? I only see one version of VHDX offered for restoration, not two. I also noticed later, that the volume was growing, and System Volume Information ended up with a 46GB file. I had a file system problem, and after working on it for 8 hours, I shrank the volume (not thinking about the shadow copy that was live in SVI), and the system effectively erased (undid) some of the incrementals I was trying. So whatever you do, if you're using that external disk for Windows 7 backups, *don't* do any significant shrinks to the external disk partition. It's possible if you bought the commercial version of Macrium, and used Incrementals Forever or the like, the usage of shadows for that purpose might also result in similar symptoms. I would expect any developer doing incrementals, to be using shadows to track them, and not some more robust method. Anyway, that was enough fun for a revisit, and it taught me that you couldn't pay me to use this method :-) And the File History. Oh boy! It was teasing me every time I tried to use it. The very last File History window I opened, it offered to restore my file with "a copy from 1999". Was File History running 18 years ago ? Sheesh. I wouldn't mind these little jokes from MS, if that File History dialog had actually offered a file version from Dec.2017. Paul |
#8
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Recovery/System Image
Hi, Paul,
As everyone can see, I snipped all of the previous message. It was just going to make this whole message horribly long. Hi, Paul, First, an apology. I completely forgot to monitor this thread for a reply, so I didn't see your reply for about a week. My apologies for that. After reading your reply, it was making no sense to me at all, so I did some testing on 7, 8.1, and 10. And what I was coming up with wasn't making much sense to me, especially the screenshot in section 1, which doesn't match mine. More on this later. Also, I only look at this as if I was the ordinary John/Jane Doe, and what I would see. The depth of what you posted, while interesting to know, does not apply to what I'm looking at/for. John/Jane Doe aren't going to be saving 3 OSes, so that's interesting, but again, not what I'm looking at/for. I try to emulate what John/Jane Doe would do on their one and only computer. Only section 1 of your post applies to what I am saying. I've never set up the Backup part on my system, I don't use it enough to make it worth the trouble. But, I do have File History turned on, which also doesn't apply to what I was talking about. When I first read your message, and saw the first screenshot, I didn't read any further. That's because your screenshot didn't match with what I was seeing. When I open Backup and Restore, I do not have a screen with a Windows 10 logo. My screen looks like the Windows 7 screen but with a Windows 10 UI look. Also, in your snapshot, it says Version 1709 (OS Build 16299.98) My computer is 10.0.16299 Build 16299. The info for my system comes from MSInfo32. I don't know why this difference, unless it possibly has to do with the computer itself. Mine is a 13 year old Dell Optiplex 380 that came with W7 and I used the free update to W10. I first ran System Image on this computer last summer, and then probably 3 or 4 times for this testing. (As I proofread this, I see I ran 3 images for this testing.) On my system image drive, when I open the WindowsImageBackup folder, I find 2 folders. One is named DellWindows10, with a date of 7/7/2017. The 2nd is named Dell-Windows-10, with a date of 12/19/2017. Why, I do not know. (Proofreading comment, I do know now!! Read on.) Open the first folder, and the Backup folder is named Backup 2017-06-28 150412, Date modified 7/1/2017. In that folder are 16 items with the date of 6/28/2017. 2nd folder is Backup 2017-12-20 021823. In that folder, 13 items with the date of 12/19/2017 Because Boris mentioned a Recovery Drive, I actually made one. Reading the messages I saw on the screen, it was obvious the thumb drive goes only to the computer that made it. But, as I suspected, the Optiplex does not allow booting from a thumb drive. So, I don't know how a W10 Recovery Disk actually works or looks like in operation. Maybe someday. So, boot from the W10 Repair Disk, which takes for freakin' ever! After I walk through all the @$%&#& W8/10 screens asking you what to do, I select System Image Recovery, and select Windows 10. Finally, I end up with a dialogue that says "Select a system image backup". I have two options, restore from the latest image, or select a system image. The latest is dated 12/19/2017. I select the latest. Skip the next option, which is format and partition the disks. Then it says which image the computer will be restored from, which happens to be the latest, by clicking Finish. If I select the option of "Select a system image", I get the option of selecting from 2 system images. DellWindows10 and Dell-Windows-10. And because of the column name of the images, it dawned on me, I've got two different folders with different names because I renamed the computer! I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image. But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM and click on Next. The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image to restore" And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times: 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:. 12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:. 12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:. So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image is opened, I find 3 images to choose from. If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting, what is it? :-) After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple additional options before you tell it to install the selected image. I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or even if it can be done. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Recovery/System Image
Ken Springer wrote:
I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image. But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM and click on Next. The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image to restore" And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times: 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:. 12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:. 12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:. So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image is opened, I find 3 images to choose from. If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting, what is it? :-) After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple additional options before you tell it to install the selected image. I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or even if it can be done. OK, I just kept the end part there. I've only got one observation to make here. When you use System Image, at a minimum it backs up C: and System Reserved. System Reserved is normally a hidden partition (type 0x27), and should not get a drive letter. Your first backup (2/19/2017 6:18:23 PM) has just one volume in it. Did you use the procedure to move the contents of System Reserved onto C: or something ? As otherwise, a more normal situation would be a 2 volume minimum. From my point of view, I cannot be promoting materials like this, because the results aren't particularly predictable. Especially my File History going nuts. Sure, I could provide a recipe to someone, and tell them how to run some procedure. But the downstream consequences (rescuing them when they "get stuck"), think of how painful that's going to be. There are just too many loose ends. With Macrium, I can say things like "your files probably aren't lost". I can't say that with what I was seeing of the Microsoft stuff. I did lose files. ******* As to how to record the screen, you can use an HDMI recorder card. The recorder cards have some limitations, like 30FPS progressive. The idea is, you use two computers. The DUT has nothing added to it. The HDMI output of the machine you're testing, goes through the passthru connectors on the HDMI capture card. The capture card is plugged into a slot in the second computer. The second computer continuously captures video, while you try stuff on the first computer. You can record 1920x1080 on a setup like that, but not at 60p. You can do 60i or 30p, where on the 30p, every second progressive frame is thrown away. At the peak of that industry, cards were around $100. I don't know what a good screen capture card is these days, as the market and the players have changed a bit. For a price of $500 or more, there was at least one product capturing at 60p, but that's not likely to support HDCP. Some of the cards also record VGA, where your screen pixel dimensions would be a bit smaller, and the DRM might not be as intrusive about what you can do. The cheapest capture cards, have HDMI in, but no HDMI out. So they don't actually support a buffered copy for passthru. for slightly more, the card has two connectors, and the output of the card drives the actual LCD monitor you're doing the demo on. This is an example from the company that made the first capture card of this type. Their first card, the encoder was done in an FPGA, and it had a few issues (FPGA means they could have reprogrammed it and fixed it). This newer card looks more compact, implying they bought a third party chip for the job. I wouldn't buy one of these, until I could find reviews on Newegg or equivalent. You can see this card has passthru, the computer goes to one port, the LCD monitor goes to the other port, and the card makes a video stream as the info goes by. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/ca/...intensitypro4k This would be a consumer version. It doesn't actually have passthru. One connector is for an analog adapter cable. The second connector is HDMI In. There is no HDMI Out. You would have to buy an HDMI buffer of some sort, with two identical HDMI outputs, to correct for the lack of passthru. The reviews are 3 out of 5 for this. And it's not necessarily all that much cheaper than some other products. By the time you take some hair loss into account. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16815100049 The intensitypro4k only got 2 our of 5 stars :-) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...82E16815710157 But it can work, and it should look better than your digital camera (which would have pincushion, moire, and so on). For some reason, I never seem to get around to buying one of those... Paul |
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Recovery/System Image
On 12/19/17 11:18 PM, Paul wrote:
Ken Springer wrote: I select the image DellWindows10, and there is just one image. But... Select Dell-Windows-10, which has a date of 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM and click on Next. The next screen is titled "Select the date and time of the system image to restore" And there are 3 images listed, with 3 separate dates and times: 12/19/2017 6:18:23 PM, consisting of 1 volume, C:. 12/19/2017 9:52:56 AM, consisting of 2 volumes, C:, and F:. 12/14/2017 7:05:47 AM, consisting of 3 volumes, C:, D:, and F:. So, I started with an image called Dell-Windows-10, and when that image is opened, I find 3 images to choose from. If that isn't an indication of appending images rather than overwriting, what is it? :-) After you select one of the three different images, you get a couple additional options before you tell it to install the selected image. I would dearly have loved to have screenshots of the System Image Recovery steps, and save all of this typing. But other than grabbing the camera, I don't know how to have taken screenshots of the steps, or even if it can be done. OK, I just kept the end part there. I've only got one observation to make here. When you use System Image, at a minimum it backs up C: and System Reserved. System Reserved is normally a hidden partition (type 0x27), and should not get a drive letter. Your first backup (2/19/2017 6:18:23 PM) has just one volume in it. Did you use the procedure to move the contents of System Reserved onto C: or something ? As otherwise, a more normal situation would be a 2 volume minimum. Unless, in the wisdom of MS, since System Reserved is a hidden partition, they don't list hidden partitions during the reinstall process. Just those partitions with a drive letter. Wouldn't want to freak out John/Jane Doe with that. They probably wouldn't understand what they were reading anyway. :-( But that thought process falls flat when you realize that during image creation, System Reserved and C: are checked by default and you cannot uncheck them. On that first W7 computer I ever saw was the only time I've actually reinstalled the image, and everything was reinstalled, including the OEM recovery partition. From my point of view, I cannot be promoting materials like this, because the results aren't particularly predictable. Especially my File History going nuts. Did you use the default location for File History, if there is one? on My W10 system, D: is my File History location, and is a separate drive. Were the files just scrambled, or missing, or ??? If I had the time, I'd reinstall the one image that has File History, but if it failed for me, I don't have the time to rebuild from scratch. I could do a backup image with Macrium, but I really need to stop taking on too many projects to play with. LOL I'd bet most users don't know about File History, and so don't even turn it on. Or, make a system image. Sure, I could provide a recipe to someone, and tell them how to run some procedure. But the downstream consequences (rescuing them when they "get stuck"), think of how painful that's going to be. There are just too many loose ends. With Macrium, I can say things like "your files probably aren't lost". I can't say that with what I was seeing of the Microsoft stuff. I did lose files. ******* As to how to record the screen, you can use an HDMI recorder card. The recorder cards have some limitations, like 30FPS progressive. snip But it can work, and it should look better than your digital camera (which would have pincushion, moire, and so on). For some reason, I never seem to get around to buying one of those... Well, this W10 computer doesn't have HDMI output. And I'd be surprised if I could even find a card! LOL So, I'm not going get one either. LOL -- Ken Mac OS X 10.11.6 Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit) Thunderbird 52.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
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Recovery/System Image
Ken Springer wrote:
Well, this W10 computer doesn't have HDMI output. And I'd be surprised if I could even find a card! LOL So, I'm not going get one either. LOL Keep the idea in mind. Maybe some day you'll want to make a tutorial, without the capture scheme affecting the computer or something. Like, maybe you'll want to record a tutorial executed on your Mac, while using the PC to do the recording or something. Another application for cards like that, is capturing output from a camcorder. Some camcorders (even my little digital camera) have HDMI output. Say a camcorder (or even a Red 4K camera you bought), you couldn't arrange a CODEC for it. You may be able to get the output over HDMI. There are also cards that support analog outputs, but your video card (and/or OS) may not support them. On purpose, the video card on this computer has YPbPr, so I could do capture of that with a card having the analog cabling. And some of the cards may support VGA. On purpose, I didn't buy too modern a video card, so it would still have analog out. Just in case some day, I had a capture card available for testing. Paul |
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