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Why is MS Word so difficult



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 18th 17, 10:31 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Micky
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Posts: 1,528
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

Ken, Yours is a long post. It will take me a while to reply.
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  #17  
Old December 18th 17, 11:28 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:30:54 -0500, micky
wrote:

I did some experiementing with my own Word Starter Edition, and the
reason it didn't ask my brother to name and save his file is that it
does it automatically and silently to recovery-save directory.

In a way this is being "too smart by half" if you know what I mean. It's
a great plan if the user knows about it, and can find the file. In my
case, because I have it set to show all files, it was there when I
followed the instruction in the link
http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/ Butagain, I
wouldn't think to just use Open to find a file I didn't even know had
been saved. I thought the file was in a temp directory somewhere. Yes,
this is better than a temp directory, because it won't be erased by
ccleaner, but only if you know about it.


I thought the idea was that you don't have to know where auto-save files
are stored because you aren't going to access them that way. On the few
occasions when I've had an MS Office application crash, when I restart
it I get asked what I want to do with the file that I was working on
when it crashed. For that reason, I don't care where they get saved or
whether the directory is hidden.

If you're like me, all you have to do is relaunch Word and confirm that
you want to continue working on your file.

  #18  
Old December 19th 17, 12:30 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On 12/18/17 2:05 PM, micky wrote:
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:03:50 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:


Looking at it another way, he wouldn't think to look in the settings to
learn the backup directory and then go to the directory to look for his
file.


Is there any way to change the temporary folder it
uses for Autosaves ?


That's a very good idea. I should have thought of it.

It's a better idea than unhiding everything, because this is the first
time there has been an issue with hidden files.

Not sure what to change it to. I hate the long train of
subdirectories** and would just use C:\data\word\unfinished or maybe
drafts. **Part of the reason for which is so more than one person can
use the computer, but how often does that happen?


If you put it outside of the Users directory on C:\, it will be subject
to the effects of System Restore.

Speaking of System Restore in W10, for the systems I've reinstalled W10
on, I've found that System Restore is turned on, but no space is set
aside for restore points.

There are actually two directories, autosave and recovery. The default
autosave C:\Users\mybrother\Documents\ is not hidden.

Have Word Starter edition and it looks the same and it has "Keep the
last autosaved version if I close without saving" which is pretty much
the situation my brother was in.

Assuming I can get my brother to use File Manager, or whatever they
call it in 10, that would help a lot. I also, even before I posted,
tried to get him to save the file immediately after starting it, and I
think he said he would, but you know how people are.

http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/

1. Open Word and click on File Options.

2. Now go to Save section and make sure that
Save AutoRecover information option is checked.

Here you can set the desired time interval for auto save.

3. Look for AutoRecover file location field.

It will show you the location of the autosave directory.

By default the location should be AppData...Baloney.

If you want, you can easily change the location by clicking
the Browse button and choosing a different directory on your PC.

Note that the web page above has adverts sandwiched right
into the article, with an almost imperceptible background
color change. Presumably this is to get more click-monkeys
to click on their junkware adverts. Miserable *******s.
More work for people to clean up later, when somebody
clicks the wrong link.


You're right.




HTH,
Paul




--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #19  
Old December 19th 17, 01:16 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Micky
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Posts: 1,528
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:28:42 -0600, Char
Jackson wrote:

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:30:54 -0500, micky
wrote:

I did some experiementing with my own Word Starter Edition, and the
reason it didn't ask my brother to name and save his file is that it
does it automatically and silently to recovery-save directory.

In a way this is being "too smart by half" if you know what I mean. It's
a great plan if the user knows about it, and can find the file. In my
case, because I have it set to show all files, it was there when I
followed the instruction in the link
http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/ Butagain, I
wouldn't think to just use Open to find a file I didn't even know had
been saved. I thought the file was in a temp directory somewhere. Yes,
this is better than a temp directory, because it won't be erased by
ccleaner, but only if you know about it.


I thought the idea was that you don't have to know where auto-save files
are stored because you aren't going to access them that way. On the few
occasions when I've had an MS Office application crash, when I restart
it I get asked what I want to do with the file that I was working on
when it crashed.


When he was trying to close Windows it said 2** files were still open.
I don't know if it gave their names but that's why he called me again.

I left out one thing and I thought my reason was good and I hope you all
won't be annoyed. That is, that when the cursor was over the Word icon
in the Task bar at the bottom, two thumbnails appeared, one for each
file. Part of the reason I didn't bring this up is that I"d worked
using Teamviewer for more than 15 minnte, and he'd worked for a while
before he called, and they had never appeared. Maybe the cursor never
went over the taskbar icon.

Even when I saw them, they would disappear before I got the cursor on
one of them. I had to try 3 times. My brother would have needed 5
times and would have given up after 3.

So you're right, that's the idea, but I still wanted a backup to the
idea. Actually, my first post was NOT about asking for help. It was
just about complaining. The only questions are complaints:
"But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?"
"Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it?" [excption:factual
question]
"Why do they hide a directory that holds application data, including
text files that someone like my brother was working on. "
"And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that
directory is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a
lost file like this? "

And the subject line too, Why is MS Word so difficult?


**The file in question and his 10-word start at rewriting it.

For that reason, I don't care where they get saved or
whether the directory is hidden.

If you're like me, all you have to do is relaunch Word and confirm that
you want to continue working on your file.


It's whether or not my brother is like you. He hadn't even closed Word
when he first called me, and even now I'm not sure he's like you on that
part.

But I'll try to use what you say here to explain it to him.
  #20  
Old December 19th 17, 02:25 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:16:21 -0500, micky
wrote:

Actually, my first post was NOT about asking for help. It was
just about complaining.


That's refreshingly honest, and I dare say that you and I on occasion
aren't the only folks who've done so. ;-)

  #21  
Old December 19th 17, 03:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On 12/18/17 5:16 PM, micky wrote:
And the subject line too, Why is MS Word so difficult?


IMO, "difficult" is not the correct word. The word, or words, would be
complex, sophisticated, full featured, complicated.

Why? Because Office is meant for, designed for, use in a large
business, where it will interface with Excel, Access, Visio, Publisher,
PowerPoint, and whatever else comes with Office.

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need. And too many
people want Word to do things you really shouldn't use it for. Such as
page layout, for which there are other cheaper and easier products to
use. Even free ones. (Note: To often, people do not know the purpose
of page layout programs, even online columnists. A lot depends on what
your end product is intended to be.)

You just need to write something fairly simple. You don't know what to
use, but a friend says you need Word to do what you want. So you pay $
XXX for the client (f you can still do this) or $ XX a month for a
subscription for software that is an overkill for what you need.

It's like telling someone you need to take the trash to the dump
station. Someone tells you that you need a Kenworth and 40' enclosed
trailer. You don't know the difference, so that's what you buy.

When all you need a half-ton pickup. Maybe even a compact pickup. And
you already have that compact pickup on your Windows computer, it's
called WordPad, as I noted in another post.

Sadly, too many people aren't interested in learning about computers and
software, and they are the worse off for it, as they end up wasting time
that they can never get back.

And if you're a senior, you could be ****ing off your kids by spoiling
the grandkids! LOL

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #22  
Old December 19th 17, 08:10 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:12:24 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need. And too many
people want Word to do things you really shouldn't use it for. Such as
page layout, for which there are other cheaper and easier products to
use. Even free ones.


Well, at least you didn't continue down that road and tell us that Excel
should only be used for traditional spreadsheet tasks. :-)

Excel is almost perfect for manipulating very large text files, such as
configuration files for specific network equipment. Just today, I needed
to make a few thousand transformations on a config file of about 200,000
lines. Excel is amazing at how well it works for that, (using formulas),
and that's before you bring VBA into the picture. With VBA, I don't
think there's anything it can't do to a text file, especially now that
the 65,535-row limit is gone. I use a text editor, Notepad++, for light
editing tasks, but when I'm in the deep end of the pool I reach for
Excel.

  #23  
Old December 19th 17, 12:58 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:12:24 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need.


But many home users will use some features that other users don't
for instance I used the mail merge tool for distributing letters to
a local civic group but other home users may want different tools
for different uses. MSFT office has plenty of help options for
people who need it, although most business users don't need hand
holding. Obviously overkill for a shopping list but for a CV or
important letter it's the tool of choice. For more layout options
there's MSFT Publisher.
  #24  
Old December 19th 17, 01:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 01:10:57 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

Excel is almost perfect for manipulating very large text files,
such as configuration files for specific network equipment. Just
today, I needed to make a few thousand transformations on a
config file of about 200,000 lines. Excel is amazing at how well
it works for that, (using formulas), and that's before you bring
VBA into the picture. With VBA, I don't think there's anything it
can't do to a text file, especially now that the 65,535-row limit
is gone. I use a text editor, Notepad++, for light editing tasks,
but when I'm in the deep end of the pool I reach for Excel.


Some years ago I used the 'Excel 4 for scientists and engineers' [1]
book to get Excel to show solutions to partial differential
equations (heat flow and so on). That sold the tool to me!

[1] Some title like that.
  #25  
Old December 19th 17, 03:20 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On 12/19/17 12:10 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:12:24 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need. And too many
people want Word to do things you really shouldn't use it for. Such as
page layout, for which there are other cheaper and easier products to
use. Even free ones.


Well, at least you didn't continue down that road and tell us that Excel
should only be used for traditional spreadsheet tasks. :-)


I could have! LOL

Excel is almost perfect for manipulating very large text files, such as
configuration files for specific network equipment. Just today, I needed
to make a few thousand transformations on a config file of about 200,000
lines. Excel is amazing at how well it works for that, (using formulas),
and that's before you bring VBA into the picture. With VBA, I don't
think there's anything it can't do to a text file, especially now that
the 65,535-row limit is gone. I use a text editor, Notepad++, for light
editing tasks, but when I'm in the deep end of the pool I reach for
Excel.


How do you make Excel do that? General idea is fine.

Pure curiosity, have you ever tried this with other spreadsheets?

One of my pet peeves with most computer users is they are unwilling to
learn a piece of software, so they never discover those "oddities" that
some program will do that you never would have dreamed could be done.

Much less, the things they could be doing with their system and software
to save them a lot of time. Time, they will never get back.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #26  
Old December 19th 17, 03:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On 12/19/17 4:58 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:12:24 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need.


But many home users will use some features that other users don't
for instance I used the mail merge tool for distributing letters to
a local civic group but other home users may want different tools
for different uses. MSFT office has plenty of help options for
people who need it, although most business users don't need hand
holding. Obviously overkill for a shopping list but for a CV or
important letter it's the tool of choice. For more layout options
there's MSFT Publisher.


As I just noted to Char, I don't think most users will ever explore
Excel far enough to know they can do mail merge. :-( I didn't know you
could do that, but, I've never had a reason to use mail merge since my
8-bit days. I wouldn't expect Excel or any other spreadsheet to have
that capability.

But, I would expect Word and other word processors to do mail merge.
Not all of them have to, or should, because there will be users like me
that have no need for that capability.

FWIW, in my 8-bit days, I owned a package that had a word processor and
a database. If I wanted to send out a bunch of letters that needed the
mail merge ability, you could pull the contact info from you database in
real time for each letter. No separate mail merge file of addresses
were needed. I've often wondered if Word ever got smart enough to pull
your contact info from Access in real time.

My observation has been that most people use a spreadsheet for a simple
non-relational database, followed by budgeting/checkbook tracking/simple
accounting.

Personally, I'm not impressed with MS's Help Options. Usually, when I
do go that route, what I want to know I can't find, and I end up
Googling. Worse, everything is online, which is horrible for some users
were I live. In this area, there are locations where dial up is the
only option. Can you imagine how slow that would make accessing Help in
an Office program?

Cell phones are unreliable also. I have a Tracfone, 99% of the time it
just sits here on the desk, turned off.

Publisher... I think I'd rather be bitten by a rattlesnake than use
Publisher. I used it at work when it was a standalone program being
sold by MS. Windows for Workgoups days. It was buggy. In order to get
a friend of mine to consider a page layout program for her job, I talked
her into going with me to the local library to take the Publisher 2007
class. The same bugs were still there. :-(

At the time I used Publisher at work, I had Atari computers at home. I
had a page layout program that was easier to use, could do more, and was
cheaper.

At her workplace, she has not met anyone that likes Publisher, but since
it's the company standard...

She's got a new position, so doesn't need a page layout program, but in
her old position she blew off company policy. She installed and used
Serif Page Plus 6, and just loved using it.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #27  
Old December 19th 17, 05:57 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
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Posts: 10,449
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:20:28 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/19/17 12:10 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
Excel is almost perfect for manipulating very large text files, such as
configuration files for specific network equipment. Just today, I needed
to make a few thousand transformations on a config file of about 200,000
lines. Excel is amazing at how well it works for that, (using formulas),
and that's before you bring VBA into the picture. With VBA, I don't
think there's anything it can't do to a text file, especially now that
the 65,535-row limit is gone. I use a text editor, Notepad++, for light
editing tasks, but when I'm in the deep end of the pool I reach for
Excel.


How do you make Excel do that? General idea is fine.


For the task yesterday, I dumped the config file, which is plain text,
into Column A of a new spreadsheet. In cell B1, I wrote a formula that
looks for a specific pattern in cell A1. Double click the handle of B1
and the formula is copied all the way down to the last row,
automatically adjusted for row references. At that point, I'm probably
done.

The formula in Col B looks at the contents of the cell in Col A, same
row, and if the pattern is found, makes the required transformations.
The result is automatically placed in Col B. If the pattern isn't found,
place the content from Col A directly into B, without changes. The
result is two configs, sort of a before and after snapshot, that are
automatically laid out beside each other in perfect alignment. If I need
to make additional changes, I just repeat the process in Col C, and so
on. When I'm done, I temporarily hide all of the intermediate columns so
that the source and the final results are next to each other, then I
show the customer the changes and we go from there.

One easy example that I can talk about, memorable because of its size,
involved a scenario where the customer wanted to change the name of
every server in their network, roughly 40,000 changes.* The naming
convention they had been using was ip_address-hostnameort,
without the angle brackets. The new format would reverse the first two
sections. The formula I used simply looked for a server name, (those
lines start with a specific keyword), isolated the actual server name
and disassembled it into its three component pieces, then reassembled it
in the correct order. Anything that wasn't a server name got copied
directly, without changes.

*That's not 40,000 physical servers. Rather, about that many
'serverort' combinations that needed to be updated.

Before they brought me in, one of my colleagues had been working on that
specific conversion on and off for over two weeks. He was up around 600
or so, with clear mistakes. I tossed his work, started from scratch, and
was done within the hour, including validation by loading the config on
a VM in my lab.

The customer was delighted and asked me to stay on for the rest of their
network upgrades. I replaced the other guy and had steady work for the
next year.

Going forward, that customer would send me their config files, each
about 35k-40k lines long, with a list of about 20-30 things they wanted
changed. Some were global changes, other changes only if specific
conditions were met. That's too much for a formula, so I switched to
VBA, which is bundled with every MS Office application, and took care of
it that way. They'd ship me a new config every Monday and I'd have it
back to them in less than an hour. Then I'd take the rest of the week
off while I waited for them to catch up on their end. That was a sweet
consulting gig. Work 1 hour a week, bill for 40, all with the customer's
full knowledge and blessing. I'd take another gig like that any day.

Is Excel the only tool that I could have used? No, of course not, but it
does work exceptionally well for that kind of work. I absolutely love
the fact that VBA is built right in, and that migrating from formulas to
VBA is painless because the syntax is almost identical. VBA is
essentially a somewhat stripped version of Visual Basic 6, so it's very
easy to work with.

Pure curiosity, have you ever tried this with other spreadsheets?


I have not. I'd lose VBA, for sure, but I'm not sure what other
compromises I'd have to make. Maybe only a few, or maybe significant.

One of my pet peeves with most computer users is they are unwilling to
learn a piece of software, so they never discover those "oddities" that
some program will do that you never would have dreamed could be done.

Much less, the things they could be doing with their system and software
to save them a lot of time. Time, they will never get back.


We each carry a sort of 'toolbox' with us through life, and when
presented with a situation, we check our personal toolbox to see what we
have that can help us out. In theory, you can always add new tools to
that toolbox, but a lot of us get complacent and just keep using the
same old tools. I know that's true for me. It's entirely possible that
someone reading my account of using Excel to manipulate large text files
will groan with agony over the poor choice of tools, but that's what I
have in my toolbox and I've learned to use it pretty well. So far, I
haven't found anyone else in the company who uses Excel in that way, so
I've either discovered something here or I'm completely off the rails.

  #28  
Old December 19th 17, 06:08 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:52:26 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 12/19/17 4:58 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 19:12:24 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:

Despite the Home and Student edition name, IMO, Word is laced with
features the average home user will never, ever need.


But many home users will use some features that other users don't
for instance I used the mail merge tool for distributing letters to
a local civic group but other home users may want different tools
for different uses. MSFT office has plenty of help options for
people who need it, although most business users don't need hand
holding. Obviously overkill for a shopping list but for a CV or
important letter it's the tool of choice. For more layout options
there's MSFT Publisher.


As I just noted to Char, I don't think most users will ever explore
Excel far enough to know they can do mail merge. :-( I didn't know you
could do that, but, I've never had a reason to use mail merge since my
8-bit days. I wouldn't expect Excel or any other spreadsheet to have
that capability.


One of my favorite things to do with Excel is direct manipulation of
text-based files. What I mean is, I can write a VBA module that reads a
text file, usually a line at a time, then writes it out to a new text
file, making the required changes on the fly. Nothing is ever populated
onto the spreadsheet. Since VBA is bundled with every MS Office
application, the choice of Excel isn't important. I've used Outlook in
the same way, for example. VBA in Excel is VBA in Outlook is VBA in
Access, etc.

Publisher... I think I'd rather be bitten by a rattlesnake than use
Publisher. I used it at work when it was a standalone program being
sold by MS. Windows for Workgoups days. It was buggy. In order to get
a friend of mine to consider a page layout program for her job, I talked
her into going with me to the local library to take the Publisher 2007
class. The same bugs were still there. :-(


I just asked a colleague who used MS Pub to make flyers, brochures, and
other materials for the Marketing department from 2004 to 2013. She says
she never had a problem with it, it worked fine, and she wasn't aware of
any bugs. She says it had its limitations, so she'd sometimes have to
jump to Corel Draw or Photoshop for a sub-task, but then she'd come back
to Pub to put it all together. I don't doubt that it has bugs, but if
you never trip over them, it's hunky dory, right?

  #29  
Old December 19th 17, 09:10 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
mechanic
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Posts: 1,064
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:57:13 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

It's entirely possible that someone reading my account of using
Excel to manipulate large text files will groan with agony over
the poor choice of tools,...


If it does the job, no problem. Linux users would reach for 'sed'
and there are ways of using that on Windows eg with Cygwin, or a
Linux virtual machine, or Powershell which has similar features, or
the Windows port he
http://www.thoughtasylum.com/blog/20...n-windows.html
  #30  
Old December 19th 17, 10:35 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Micky
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Posts: 1,528
Default Why is MS Word so difficult

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:20:28 -0700, Ken
Springer wrote:


One of my pet peeves with most computer users is they are unwilling to
learn a piece of software, so they never discover those "oddities" that
some program will do that you never would have dreamed could be done.


Most of my career work was with mainframes, and when I could, I'd read
the whole manual.

On my first job, working for one of the 5 smartest guys I've ever known,
(and I think he had lots of expericence too) we had to sort something
into the opposite order from when the data was created, and I later
learned one often did that by putting numbers in front of the lines and
sorting on them. That's what the guy expected me to do.

But I didn't know that he didt and what I did is required much less
code. I wrote everything to tape and then read the tape backwards. He
was impressed and said, I didn't know you could do that.

It was in the Cobol manual.
 




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