Partitioning question

I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be there
on the main drive.

Bill in Co wrote:
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be there
on the main drive.

The policy varies with the software.

You'd better be sure what your software does in this situation!

I know my software is "unsafe", so my partition sizes stay fixed
when I'm imaging on a regular basis. If I'm curious, I can open
up an image file from my collection, and verify the partition
sizes recorded in there. So I have some advanced info as to
whether that image happens to match the current drive or not.

Since the software I use, also supports "mounting" of the image
partitions, I can do random file recovery without restoring the
whole thing. So if I absolutely had to, I could actually copy
every stinking file manually, from File Explorer. I would potentially
need to do a "fixboot" or equivalent later, if the partition in
question happened to be C:. The situation would still be a mess
though, and I can't imagine what would happen to proper file
permissions in such a case.

Some hints about what is about to happen, come from the
terms "clone", "image", and "backup". Each has nuances.
When the word "clone" is used, it is used a bit loosely,
because many "clones" are not as exact as they should be.
But such words may help distinguish between tools
that resize on the fly, and the ones that just smash
whatever setup they find on your disk.

Paul

Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an
image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming
the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
on the main drive.

The policy varies with the software.

You'd better be sure what your software does in this situation!

I know my software is "unsafe", so my partition sizes stay fixed
when I'm imaging on a regular basis. If I'm curious, I can open
up an image file from my collection, and verify the partition
sizes recorded in there. So I have some advanced info as to
whether that image happens to match the current drive or not.

Since the software I use, also supports "mounting" of the image
partitions, I can do random file recovery without restoring the
whole thing. So if I absolutely had to, I could actually copy
every stinking file manually, from File Explorer. I would potentially
need to do a "fixboot" or equivalent later, if the partition in
question happened to be C:. The situation would still be a mess
though, and I can't imagine what would happen to proper file
permissions in such a case.

Some hints about what is about to happen, come from the
terms "clone", "image", and "backup". Each has nuances.
When the word "clone" is used, it is used a bit loosely,
because many "clones" are not as exact as they should be.
But such words may help distinguish between tools
that resize on the fly, and the ones that just smash
whatever setup they find on your disk.

Paul

I'm still using ATI - Acronis True Image (an older version) for making image
backups, and on rare occasions, a complete clone backup of my main drive to
another drive.

You said your image backup software was unsafe? In what regard?

Up to this point, I, too, have been keeping my partition sizes fixed,
although I just expanded the D: partition (from 20GB to 40GB), so D: is now
40GB. I haven't tried restoring an older image backup of C: (although since
it isn't the system partition C: that was changed, I'm expecting at least
THAT would work ok, despite any changes in the partition table).

But I'm less sure what would happen if I tried restoring an older image
backup of D: (as a 20GB partition), however, but I'm expecting ATI would
recognize that change, and simply put back that 20 GB partition on the main
drive, without any hassle and update the partition table accordingly. (If
it can't do that, it seems pretty limited to me).

I was just wondering if anyone happened to know the answer for sure (rather
than my finding out after the fact). Acronis has a lot of support articles,
but I think what I'm asking here wasn't answered there last time I looked.
But I would have thought that any disk partitioning software would be more
consistent in what it does in this regard, however.

Bill in Co wrote:


I'm still using ATI - Acronis True Image (an older version) for making image
backups, and on rare occasions, a complete clone backup of my main drive to
another drive.

You said your image backup software was unsafe? In what regard?

Up to this point, I, too, have been keeping my partition sizes fixed,
although I just expanded the D: partition (from 20GB to 40GB), so D: is now
40GB. I haven't tried restoring an older image backup of C: (although since
it isn't the system partition C: that was changed, I'm expecting at least
THAT would work ok, despite any changes in the partition table).

But I'm less sure what would happen if I tried restoring an older image
backup of D: (as a 20GB partition), however, but I'm expecting ATI would
recognize that change, and simply put back that 20 GB partition on the main
drive, without any hassle and update the partition table accordingly. (If
it can't do that, it seems pretty limited to me).

I was just wondering if anyone happened to know the answer for sure (rather
than my finding out after the fact). Acronis has a lot of support articles,
but I think what I'm asking here wasn't answered there last time I looked.
But I would have thought that any disk partitioning software would be more
consistent in what it does in this regard, however.



Mine has none of these features, so I wouldn't even try it.
You can see ATI has an interface for it here.

https://kb.acronis.com/content/2770

Paul

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 3:10:52 PM UTC-6, Bill in Co wrote:
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be there
on the main drive.

I use Macrium Reflect for my image backups.

Since the program does a sector by sector copy, when you do a restore, it will be an exact copy of the image backup.

If you restore using the first image (that just contains c, then when you restore, there WILL NOT be a D: partition.

You should only restore using the second or newest image backup that contains the system that you want restored.

Macrium also works when you have both NTFS and ext2 and ext3 partitions which are used in Linux.

Bill,

I'm assuming the partition software will readjust all the partition
table stuff to accomplish that, and that if you had added another
partition D:, it will still be there on the main drive.

That fully depends on the backup/restore program you're using, and if what
you ask can actually be done -- imagine you *shrunk* a partition after
having it backupped and reassigned the free space to another/new partition.
What should it do than ?

For all I know that program of yours just does a raw backup/restore of the
whole partition (not bothering with the filesystem on it -- gives big
backups, but can handle unknown filesystems too), and can only restore in a
partition of exactly the right size ...

In short: Don't bet on anything happening without reading about your
backup/restore programs capabilities & features.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


-- Origional message:
Bill in Co schreef in berichtnieuws
...
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
on the main drive.

Your question doesn't really make sense. There's
no reason to assume that all programs work the
same way. Even less would I assume that your software
is going to make a guess at what you want to do. You
need to understand what you're doing in the first place.
It sounds to me like either you don't understand the
process as well as you should, or Acronis is hiding too
much in the interest of convenience.

I use BootIt. If I delete C drive in order to restore a
backup image, it gives me the option to size the
partition at any size available. (If I now have 60 GB
space I can size it from 40-60 GB.) But it doesn't assume
I want to resize the backup at the same time I install it!
That wouldn't make sense. What if you were re-installing
your image to a new 1 TB hard disk. Would you want the
software to assume you want to resize to 1 TB? If it
did that you'd have to go through an extra step of
re-resizing it in order to add D drive.


"Bill in Co" wrote in message
...
| I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an image
| backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
| I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
| even if its a system partition.
|
| Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
| image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
| add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
| separately).
|
| Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming the
| partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
| that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
| on the main drive.
|
|

Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an
image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any
problem, even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and
make an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or
perhaps add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup
(which is saved separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm
assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still
be there
on the main drive.

The policy varies with the software.

You'd better be sure what your software does in this situation!

I know my software is "unsafe", so my partition sizes stay fixed
when I'm imaging on a regular basis. If I'm curious, I can open
up an image file from my collection, and verify the partition
sizes recorded in there. So I have some advanced info as to
whether that image happens to match the current drive or not.

Since the software I use, also supports "mounting" of the image
partitions, I can do random file recovery without restoring the
whole thing. So if I absolutely had to, I could actually copy
every stinking file manually, from File Explorer. I would potentially
need to do a "fixboot" or equivalent later, if the partition in
question happened to be C:. The situation would still be a mess
though, and I can't imagine what would happen to proper file
permissions in such a case.

Some hints about what is about to happen, come from the
terms "clone", "image", and "backup". Each has nuances.
When the word "clone" is used, it is used a bit loosely,
because many "clones" are not as exact as they should be.
But such words may help distinguish between tools
that resize on the fly, and the ones that just smash
whatever setup they find on your disk.

Paul

I'm still using ATI - Acronis True Image (an older version) for
making image backups, and on rare occasions, a complete clone backup
of my main drive to another drive.

You said your image backup software was unsafe? In what regard?

Up to this point, I, too, have been keeping my partition sizes fixed,
although I just expanded the D: partition (from 20GB to 40GB), so D:
is now 40GB. I haven't tried restoring an older image backup of C:
(although since it isn't the system partition C: that was changed,
I'm expecting at least THAT would work ok, despite any changes in the
partition table).
But I'm less sure what would happen if I tried restoring an older
image backup of D: (as a 20GB partition), however, but I'm expecting
ATI would recognize that change, and simply put back that 20 GB
partition on the main drive, without any hassle and update the
partition table accordingly. (If it can't do that, it seems pretty
limited to me).
I was just wondering if anyone happened to know the answer for sure
(rather than my finding out after the fact). Acronis has a lot of
support articles, but I think what I'm asking here wasn't answered
there last time I looked. But I would have thought that any disk
partitioning software would be more consistent in what it does in
this regard, however.

I use the Seagate version of ATI. I have no problem restoring to any partition
as long as it is large enough to hold all the data on the restore file. I am
careful not to even use the "sector by sector" restore function when doing a
backup.

Mayayana wrote:
Your question doesn't really make sense. There's
no reason to assume that all programs work the
same way. Even less would I assume that your software
is going to make a guess at what you want to do. You
need to understand what you're doing in the first place.
It sounds to me like either you don't understand the
process as well as you should, or Acronis is hiding too
much in the interest of convenience.

I use BootIt. If I delete C drive in order to restore a
backup image, it gives me the option to size the
partition at any size available. (If I now have 60 GB
space I can size it from 40-60 GB.) But it doesn't assume
I want to resize the backup at the same time I install it!
That wouldn't make sense. What if you were re-installing
your image to a new 1 TB hard disk. Would you want the
software to assume you want to resize to 1 TB? If it
did that you'd have to go through an extra step of
re-resizing it in order to add D drive.

I had thought in the specific examples I gave (using ATI), I was pretty
specific, and quite conservative, and in no case was I attempting anything
that wouldn't make much sense like the one you mentioned (or running out of
disk or partition space, etc). But maybe I didn't state it clearly enough.
See below.


"Bill in Co" wrote in message
...
I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an
image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is
saved separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup.

Note again: this would be to a SMALLER space, NOT larger. So the current
60 GB C: partition would be deleted, and replaced by the 40 GB C: partition
backup image. However, the MBR or partition table would have to be
updated. In no case would I be running out of disk space.

Similarly, if I had added another small D: partition, and restored an image
backup that was unaware of that addition in its MBR or partition table data
saved in the image backup, presumably the software (ATI) would be smart
enough to figure that out. Again, in no case would I be running out of disk
space or expecting a time consuming reshuffling of partitions.

Trying to find this stuff discussed in the ATI literature seems to be a lost
cause.

I'm assuming the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
on the main drive.

On 2014-11-10 00:01, Paul wrote:

Mine has none of these features, so I wouldn't even try it.

I thought you used Macrium, which claims it has:

http://www.macrium.com/pages/features.aspx

It's not clear if the Free includes resizing partitions...

Best Regards,

--
! _\|/_ Sylvain /
! (o o) Member-+-David-Suzuki-Foundation/EFF/Planetary-Society-+-
oO-( )-Oo First contact missions mean virgin planets! -Riker

B00ze/Empire wrote:
On 2014-11-10 00:01, Paul wrote:

Mine has none of these features, so I wouldn't even try it.

I thought you used Macrium, which claims it has:

http://www.macrium.com/pages/features.aspx

It's not clear if the Free includes resizing partitions...

Best Regards,


It's not spelled out in as many words, but based on some of the
items, I'm guessing no, for the free version.

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

During a clone, it will resize the last partition if it is too
large. That's the only feature I've seen that comes close. I
don't see any interface in the "restore" for resizing.

Paul

Paul wrote:
B00ze/Empire wrote:
On 2014-11-10 00:01, Paul wrote:

Mine has none of these features, so I wouldn't even try it.

I thought you used Macrium, which claims it has:

http://www.macrium.com/pages/features.aspx

It's not clear if the Free includes resizing partitions...

Best Regards,


It's not spelled out in as many words, but based on some of the
items, I'm guessing no, for the free version.

http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx

During a clone, it will resize the last partition if it is too
large. That's the only feature I've seen that comes close. I
don't see any interface in the "restore" for resizing.

Paul

But OTOH, it would seem to me that IF you're restoring a backup partition
image that is equal to or less than the size of the existing partition on
your hard drive, it should be able to easily do so, since it's simply
deleting the existing partition on your HD, and directly replacing it with
an equal size or smaller size one (from the backup where the partition size
is already determined). The only difficulty I see is making sure the MBR
and partition tables are updated properly, unless I'm still missing
something (which is always possible)

"Bill in Co" écrivait news:I4ydnRu-
:

I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an
image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming
the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
on the main drive.



This thread comes at the right time for me; been a long time since I've
been here and I came to ask about the same topic.

My question might be similar but reversed, I want to delete the D:
partition on a friend laptop (my friend doesn't even know there is a D:
drive on the computer and there is nothing on it but a few obscure system
folders that look like registry keys). Let's say I boot from the ATI 2009
CD and I create an image of the C: drive. After that I destroy everything
on the source drive and restore the newly created image; will it work?

TIA

Interesting thread!

Dominique wrote:
"Bill in Co" écrivait news:I4ydnRu-
:

I'm still a bit confused over this. What happens if you restore an
image
backup when you have changed the partition size since the last image
backup?
I'm assuming the partition software will handle that without any problem,
even if its a system partition.

Here is a concrete example: You start off with C: being 40 GB, and make
an
image backup of C: Then, say, you either expand C: to 60 GB, or perhaps
add another partition D:, and now make a new image backup (which is saved
separately).

Later, you decide you want to restore the earlier setup. I'm assuming
the
partition software will readjust all the partition table stuff to
accomplish
that, and that if you had added another partition D:, it will still be
there
on the main drive.



This thread comes at the right time for me; been a long time since I've
been here and I came to ask about the same topic.

My question might be similar but reversed, I want to delete the D:
partition on a friend laptop (my friend doesn't even know there is a D:
drive on the computer and there is nothing on it but a few obscure system
folders that look like registry keys). Let's say I boot from the ATI 2009
CD and I create an image of the C: drive. After that I destroy everything
on the source drive and restore the newly created image; will it work?

TIA

Interesting thread!

It's not magic.

You have to pay attention to where the component parts of the OS are located.

WinXP has one partition, so in Disk Management "System" and "Boot" should
be on the same partition. Saving C: plus the MBR sector in that case, would
be a "complete set".

For later OSes, they have one or two partitions. The "System" and "Boot" files
can be on C:. Or they can be split between C: partition and SYSTEM RESERVED
partition (no drive letter on SR). If you're dealing with such an OS, you want
to back up both C: and SYSTEM RESERVED, plus the MBR that has the first stage
bootstrapping code.

When OSes multiboot, the details of what makes it boot are important.
You need to understand which OS provides the Boot Manager function,
and how to "unhook" the OSes. So if a pair of OSes are present,
and you back up only one of them, you may need the services of
"fixboot" or "fixmbr" (or equivalents) later on, to make that
restored OS boot.

While backup software could figure this stuff out for you,
in general backup software designers are very conservative.
And they only do the stuff they know to be bulletproof.
If they attempt to do something complex and whizzy for you,
it only results in a pile of support phone calls to their
Tech Support. That's why not many of them will be
adventurous.

When I have questions about how backups work, I do *two* backups.
I do a backup, using a method I do understand, which will
absolutely put things back for me. Then, I'm allowed to do
a backup experiment, only back up one partition or whatever,
wipe the source disk, then attempt a restore experiment. If
the experiment fails miserably, I restore using the full disk
image I took as the first step. It sounds like a lot of work,
but it has saved me a couple times. But this is how you learn stuff.

*******

So back to your question.

Bring up the Disk Management plugin ("diskmgmt.msc"). Look
at C: and D:. Does C: list "System" and "Boot" as properties ?
Or is D: involved. If D: is involved at all, you should
think about what will happen if D: is deleted. Perhaps the
OS you're referring to, is not WinXP, but is Vista/Win7/Win8/Win10,
in which case two partitions may need to be backed up. if your
friend assigned a drive letter to SYSTEM RESERVED, the scenario
you describe could happen ("I see what look like system files").

There is a procedure for converting a setup, from two partitions
to one partition. On Windows 7, this would break BitLocker
full disk encryption. For most people, this is not an issue as
they don't use it.

"How to Remove the Windows 'System Reserved' Partition"
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=409

I've used that process successfully, on my Windows 7 laptop,
to make C: into a single partition OS. (So I could delete SYSTEM
RESERVED.) But you can bet I was well covered on the backup
front, before I started...

Paul

The part I meant didn't make much sense was that
you're assuming any partition tool will be the same
as Acronis.

Any partitioning/imaging tool should be
able to copy a partition image to a space of equal
or greater size and should update the partition
table in the process. Resizing the new partition to fit
in the same step is something that most tools should
be able to do. Some may not. Resizing it automatically
without asking you is something no tools should do.
There's no reason to assume you want the 40 GB
backup to be resized to 60 GB. BootIt gives me the option
to choose any size up to the available space. If Acronis
doesn't offer that option you can always do it
afterward as a separate step.

So, in other words, you don't have to worry about
the partition table. That's part of the software's job.
You may need to set the new partition active in order
to boot. You may also need to edit the boot.ini file
on the new partition if the position is changed. That
is, if you backed up C drive and then restored it to
a position as the second primary partition, for multi-booting,
then you'd need to update that boot.ini to point to
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2) instead of
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1). Otherwise, when you
boot into the second partition it will boot up the first
partition.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be thinking
that each partition has a map of the disk and that that
map may be out of date when the partition is restored.
It doesn't work that way. Only the boot file might get mixed
up when number and placement of partitions is changed.