Does the best price:performance choice in any common consumer electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics
device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

As an example, my first Android smart phone was a (carrier subsidized)
approximately $800 8GB Samsung Galaxy S3, where the next device was a
T-Mobile ~$250 8GB Nexus 4 which was so bad it was swapped back to T-Mobile
for a ~$350 16GB Nexus 5, which was, itself, replaced with this $200 8GB
Google Moto-G, which itself, after it fell off a cliff with me, was
replaced with this far better $130 32GB LG Stylo 3 Plus (which is my
current Android phone).
https://i.postimg.cc/YSq4d4V6/motog-stylo3plus01.jpg

This question isn't just about phones though, which is why the PC group is
involved, since TVs, monitors, computers, cameras, calculators, optical
burners, LED lights, GPS receivers, electronics levels, laser devices,
printers, security cams, etc., all seem to follow the basic electronic
price-performance trend of better, faster, and cheaper over time.

Bearing in mind that any fool can find a horrible price to performance
ratio, the question is, by its very nature, limited to the BEST price to
performance choices at the time (and not the worst, which any fool can do).

Hence, the question, assuming the best price-to-performance choices:
Q: Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer
electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all
electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time?

On 7/4/2019 12:29 PM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:

snip

That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all
electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time?

Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation. In inflation
adjusted-dollars prices usually come down.

Vehicle prices have generally come down, in inflation-adjusted dollars
as well. In 1996 we bought a Toyota Camry for a street price of about
$16,900. Adjusted for inflation, the same model should cost about
$27,000 today, but it is actually about $20,500, and the 2019 model has
a lot more stuff on it, ABS, TPMS, traction control, Bluetooth, Lane
Departure Warning, Collision Avoidance warning, RKE, 5x as many airbags,
etc..

It's not how much it costs to manufacture that determines the price,
it's what the market will bear. That's what we're seeing with flagship
smart phones lately as well. The market was just not willing to accept
the initial prices of high-end phones from Apple and Samsung, at least
not for high-volume sales. So all sorts of incentives and discounts were
introduced.

sms wrote
Arlen G. Holder wrote

That is, does anything just go up in price year after year, or does all
electronics just get better, faster, and cheaper over time?

Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation.

Hardly ever with electronic stuff.

In inflation adjusted-dollars prices usually come down.

Vehicle prices have generally come down, in inflation-
adjusted dollars as well. In 1996 we bought a Toyota Camry for a street
price of about $16,900. Adjusted for inflation, the same model should cost
about $27,000 today,

That’s quite a tricky thing to calculate because the
official inflation rate includes lots of stuff that has
no relevance to the real inflation rate seen with the
price of cars most obviously with the retail price of
houses which is driven by other factors entirely.

but it is actually about $20,500, and the 2019 model has a lot more stuff
on it, ABS, TPMS, traction control, Bluetooth, Lane Departure Warning,
Collision Avoidance warning, RKE, 5x as many airbags, etc..

It's not how much it costs to manufacture that determines the price, it's
what the market will bear.

That’s not true of high end smartphones.

That's what we're seeing with flagship smart phones lately as well. The
market was just not willing to accept the initial prices of high-end
phones from Apple and Samsung, at least not for high-volume sales.

That is just plain wrong with the initial sales of the XR and XS

So all sorts of incentives and discounts were introduced.

BULL****.

And another quite different effect is seen with stuff like
motherboard cpus where we have seen for a very long
time now very high initial prices which come down to
much more reasonably prices after the initial price.

That appears to mostly be deliberate gouging of
those who must have whatever is at the cutting edge.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics
device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

No. For any given price-point, devices will tend to have better specs
in 2-3 years than they do today. Be it a cell phone, harddrive,
computer, automobile, etc.

(Granted, "software" takes things in the other direction; requiring more
and more of that "performance" to do the same task).

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEBcqaUD8uEzVNxUrujhHd8xJ5ooEFAl0fJh QACgkQjhHd8xJ5
ooF48Af+NMG9eHIfGzJa9mkxGWHJkqgOZJHqB+qAc2eY/F/V03Qsu7Xs3b1tBkoB
nDqUdVQ8nw/lDGokQKuBz9oxj3drcuIS1O9fGUPkToSwJYKhGAlimd1R+lSVM r4h
rTwbl6KNUPitLEt1HnlQMkOdk9iOMGq2CUfKgTrq/+pBGahBeAPB5F/EYwiIQ2Ku
eUr21UK2wcyABD+et+D+Lpq+vcr8T5hierhl+gCnorXi8AM63k +OCvE/2oPVCPdx
qeXe3/Uzq5p3tOzkGp6Mmq9vUXyGBBqnVnEnirpLi/KGdzpFf9s5j04fYtPIGdqo
eQztw8YdCEQg4ZuCoDkYXEKXnKUQ4w==
=xj0q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Unlocked 128GB Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus on sale for $700
https://i.postimg.cc/PrhBVVt5/samsungs10plus.jpg

I already bought my $100 Moto G7 stocking stuffers, where this is a great
gift phone for those who buy the flagship products.

o Unlocked 128GB Samsung Galaxy S10 Plus on sale for $700 (free shipping)
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Galaxy-Plus-Phone-128GB/dp/B07N4L36H7/

On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 19:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics
device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

From MacWorld, for your Memorial Day weekend shelter-in-place humor...

This humorous poke at Apple's version of "economic theory" is apropos...
"From laptops that require multiple dongles to work properly
and hefty upgrade costs for memory or storage to the iPad keyboards
*with price tags that defy any known theory of economics*: the
constant drip feed of penny-pinching from the world's first
trillion-dollar company..."

The whole article is here, but the point is Appleconomics is where
MARKETING tells the consumer what they will "courageously" want!
o Different Think: Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap
https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/

Example, (verbatim)... (there's a _lot_ more in the article!)
*I didn't choose the dongle life*
Take, for example, the great headphone debacle that began with the
iPhone 7. Here came the funky new model that everyone wanted,
with Apple touting its decision to include no headphone jack
absolutely free of charge. That's right, customers were blessed
with a couple of millimetres of additional brushed aluminium
to cover up the ugly hole that existed on the previous models.
Courage.

Obviously, this caused a bit of a problem for those who wanted to
use their current, wired headphones, so Apple saw them off at the
pass with the inclusion of an adapter that connected them to the
Lightning port. It was ugly, but it worked... well, for a while
until the damn thing either got lost or broke. Dongle life had begun.

This was followed by the iPhone 8, which told a similar story until
it was updated a while later and the adapter was quietly dropped
from the box, replaced by a pair of Lightning EarPods instead.
Now, some will say this is a good thing, as you get working headphones
with your iPhone, but if you already had a pair you liked then to use
them meant a trip to the Apple Store to buy a dongle. This would be
followed up, shortly afterwards, with a second trip to replace the
first one that had disappeared somehow. Magical.

Why not simply put both in the box? iPhones are expensive,
dongles are not, so why withhold this thing that helps customers
and ensures that 'it just works'?

(If you think this is bad, word on the grapevine is that Apple is
considering not including any headphones at all with the iPhone 12."

There's a _lot_ more of this humor in the MacWorld article...
--
Given it's what I've been saying for decades, you have to allow me the
humor of reading, with great satisfaction, that _some_ people get details.
(not many, but some)

On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:48:09 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation.

Hardly ever with electronic stuff.

Anyone who took macro & micro in even undergrad courses knows full well
instantly why Apple MARKETING is so successful at defying the basic
economic trend of "better faster cheaper" over time...

To that end, here's a humorous look, from MacWorld, published this week:
o *Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap*"
https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/

*Courageous Decisions*:
"Take, for example, the great headphone debacle that began with the
iPhone 7. Here came the funky new model that everyone wanted,
with Apple touting its decision to include no headphone jack
absolutely free of charge. That's right, customers were blessed
with a couple of millimetres of additional brushed aluminium
to cover up the ugly hole that existed on the previous models.
Courage."

*Slow Power*:
"the iPhone 11, iPhone XR, iPhone SE and aforementioned iPhone 8
all support fast charging, but Apple only puts the standard (slow)
charger in the box even when you've blown over a grand..."

*Low Storage*:
"the standard iPad now has less storage than the cheapest iPhone SE,
all while being positioned as a possible replacement for your laptop"

*Expensive iCloud*:
"Hey, look, have 5GB on us for free! Whoop-de-doo!"

*Overall Summary*:
"From laptops that require multiple dongles to work properly
and hefty upgrade costs for memory or storage to the iPad keyboards
with price tags that defy any known theory of economics: the
constant drip feed of penny-pinching from the world's first
trillion-dollar company..."

It was a humorous poke at _how_ Apple makes its money off of you!
o Dateline 24 May 20

Plenty more in the humorous article by MacWorld.

In summary:
"At the moment, Apple is one of the richest companies the world has
ever known... Yet, amidst all this plenty there is the sense that
the customer should often be expected to pay a little bit more to
get the finished article."
--
*It's a humorous poke at _how_ Apple makes its money off you!*

On 2020-05-25 9:41 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 19:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Arlen G. Holder wrote:

Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer electronics
device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?

From MacWorld, for your Memorial Day weekend shelter-in-place humor...

Funny...

Did you go on just the other day about how you don't post information in
inappropriate groups?

How is an article from MacWorld appropriate in this group, Arlen?

On 2020-05-25 9:46 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 08:48:09 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

Prices do go up sometimes because of inflation.

Hardly ever with electronic stuff.

Anyone who took macro & micro in even undergrad courses knows full well
instantly why Apple MARKETING is so successful at defying the basic
economic trend of "better faster cheaper" over time...

To that end, here's a humorous look, from MacWorld, published this week:
o *Why Apple needs to stop being so cheap*"
https://www.macworld.co.uk/opinion/apple/different-think-apple-cheap-3788153/

Funny...

Did you go on just the other day about how you don't post information in
inappropriate groups?

How is an article from MacWorld appropriate in this group, Arlen?

And how it appropriate to post it twice?

Factual Update

See also:
o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price*
*of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro*
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ

"what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that
*it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*"
--
Only very highly marketed products can sustain price increases over time.

On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
Factual Update

See also:
o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price*
*of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro*
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ

"what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that
*it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*"


What you didn't quote:

'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes in
supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier for
entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether it be
because of COVID-19 or other changes.'

Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
Factual Update

See also:
o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price*
*of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro*
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ


"what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that
*it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*"


What you didn't quote:

'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes in
supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier for
entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether it be
because of COVID-19 or other changes.'

There's more to it than that.

The MacBook Pro is a low-profile machine, with RAM chips
soldered to the motherboard.

If there is a temporary supply fluctuation ("can't make motherboards,
COVID19"), the company may attempt to convince punters to accept
8GB machines, by bumping the price of 16GB machines.

That's a theory, if the case happened to be there was a large
stack of 8GB motherboards, and no 16GB motherboards left.

Now, we know their supply management isn't that haphazard,
and they couldn't possibly have run out of 16GB motherboards.

Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM
upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple
machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four
modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the
life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM,
in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so.

And that's why you buy hardware with removable components,
so you can shop the market and cut the fat out.

Soldering RAM to motherboards is "criminal". I did a processor
board like that once :-) At work. But because it was an
embedded system, there didn't need to be an upgrade strategy
at the time. And the processor board was small and could be
unplugged and replaced (we weren't planning on replacing it,
but nevertheless, we put the capability there so we would
not look too dopey when the inevitable happened).
I wasn't feeling a lot of guilt. And it was a lot of
fun doing Spice simulations to prove why the RAM
positions on that PCB, worked. You can make
a nice flat planar that way.

We couldn't use SODIMMs in there, because there was no room.

I'm not convinced that the industry could not make planar
subsystems to allow upgrading "super-flat" computers. But
it sure is convenient to gouge a customer when you solder
all that crap in. Same goes for the invention of soldered-down eMMC.
Totally unnecessary game-playing and customer-screwing.

Paul

On 5/31/2020 1:41 PM, Paul wrote:

Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM
upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple
machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four
modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the
life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM,
in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so.

Like any company, Apple charges what the market will bear. They are
generally very good about pricing strategy. The original iPhone was an
exception, they dropped the price by $200 shortly after it was released.
Since it was a new product category, and they didn't really know how
much to charge, they had to walk back the price. That infuriated some
early adopters but Jobs offered a $100 credit in the Apple store to
placate those that were upset
https://www.macworld.com/article/1059878/credit.html.

On 2020-05-31 1:41 p.m., Paul wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-05-31 12:22 a.m., Arlen Holder wrote:
Factual Update

See also:
o *Instead of lowering prices, Apple literally DOUBLES the price*
Â*Â* *of RAM upgrade on the 13-Inch MacBook Pro*
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.mac.system/kKoj8NhSzI0/3tzZjjqmAQAJ


Â*Â*Â* "what makes today's change unusual beyond the fact that
Â*Â*Â* *it is an increase rather than a typical decrease*"


What you didn't quote:

'These fluctuations in component pricing are generally due to changes
in supply and demand. For example, it’s possible that Apple’s supplier
for entry-level MacBook Pro RAM is experiencing disruptions, whether
it be because of COVID-19 or other changes.'

There's more to it than that.

Of course there is.

I mostly wanted to point out the hypocrisy.

:-)


The MacBook Pro is a low-profile machine, with RAM chips
soldered to the motherboard.

If there is a temporary supply fluctuation ("can't make motherboards,
COVID19"), the company may attempt to convince punters to accept
8GB machines, by bumping the price of 16GB machines.

That's a theory, if the case happened to be there was a large
stack of 8GB motherboards, and no 16GB motherboards left.

Now, we know their supply management isn't that haphazard,
and they couldn't possibly have run out of 16GB motherboards.

Normally when Apple puts unreasonable prices on SODIMM or DIMM
upgrades, you just stick-handle around them. I got an Apple
machine with min-RAM in it (single DIMM), then put four
modules of some Samsung in it myself, and it was flawless for the
life of the machine. At the time that was 4x512MB DDR333 RAM,
in my MacOSX quad nostril machine running 10.2.8 or so.

And that's why you buy hardware with removable components,
so you can shop the market and cut the fat out.

Soldering RAM to motherboards is "criminal". I did a processor
board like that once :-) At work. But because it was an
embedded system, there didn't need to be an upgrade strategy
at the time. And the processor board was small and could be
unplugged and replaced (we weren't planning on replacing it,
but nevertheless, we put the capability there so we would
not look too dopey when the inevitable happened).
I wasn't feeling a lot of guilt. And it was a lot of
fun doing Spice simulations to prove why the RAM
positions on that PCB, worked. You can make
a nice flat planar that way.

We couldn't use SODIMMs in there, because there was no room.

I'm not convinced that the industry could not make planar
subsystems to allow upgrading "super-flat" computers. But
it sure is convenient to gouge a customer when you solder
all that crap in. Same goes for the invention of soldered-down eMMC.
Totally unnecessary game-playing and customer-screwing.
1. Ordinary folks don't upgrade very often, so you're including a
capability that will make the thing cost more AND be a little bulkier.

2. People like sleek design.

On Sun, 31 May 2020 16:33:14 -0700, sms wrote:

Like any company, Apple charges what the market will bear. They are
generally very good about pricing strategy. The original iPhone was an
exception, they dropped the price by $200 shortly after it was released.
Since it was a new product category, and they didn't really know how
much to charge, they had to walk back the price. That infuriated some
early adopters but Jobs offered a $100 credit in the Apple store to
placate those that were upset
https://www.macworld.com/article/1059878/credit.html.

Dateline today, all verbatim given apologists play silly semantic games.
"Pull up a chair, friend, and let me tell you a thing or two
about a little company called Apple."

o *Apple Silicon Macs will be cheaper than Intel Macs, right?*
https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-silicon-macs-will-be-cheaper-than-intel-macs-right/

"There's a lot that we don't know about Apple Silicon powered Macs,
but one question that's on the mind of a lot of people is whether
this shift will result in cheaper Macs.

It's a logical question. After all, an Apple Silicon Arm chip such
as the A12X will surely be cheaper than a chip from Intel, right?

Well, pull up a chair, friend, and let me tell you a thing or two
about a little company called Apple."

See also:
o *Does the best priceerformance choice in any common consumer*
*electronics device NOT get better, faster, and CHEAPER over time?*
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/gYbrI4EepAs
--
Only extremely highly marketed consumer products go up in price in time.