2004 iso 4.9 GB?

Paul wrote:

One reason for Todd to make a DVD, is he can use LightScribe
and write "Todds House of Computers" on it, and leave the
DVD as promotional material :-)

That label will fade in about 3 years. Then users won't know what the
hell is on the disc. Might get 5 years of barely legible if the disc is
kept in a drawer or opaque disc wallet or case. Sunlight is corrosive
both to the Lightscribed label side and to the phase-change chemical
used with user "burned" discs. Every year the Lightscribed label will
get harder to read until eventually all you can see is there is
something on that surface but not what. Lightscribed discs require
precautions regarding their storage. The reactive dye on which the
label gets etched, and if properly stored, should have no noticeable
fading for 2 years. Not really effective for archived media. Proper
storage means keeping the Lightscribed discs away from high heat,
sunlight (because of UV), and high humidity. You must also store them
in polypropylene sleeves instead of PVC sleeves. Residual oil and
chemicals (lotion, soap, hair care products) can stain the labels.
Temperatures inside optical drives is much higher than room temperature,
so Lightscribed discs should not be left inside optical drives. For
endurance of the label, Lightscribed discs should be handled like they
were in a clean room.

Of course, you have to buy the specialty Lightscribe discs (that have
the data control ring used to align the labelling on the disc) along
with a Lightscribe-able disc burner drive. Both drives and discs are
fading away, just like the label, for Lightscribe support.

HP invented Lightscribe, and they dropped it. HP closed their
Lightscrib web site back in Nov 2013. Paper labels are more permanent
(and really aren't that hard to apply without screwing up balance) and
can use bright colors or even high contrast black instead of barely
contrasting greys. Because there is a special align ring around the
center, you can re-burn the same Lightscribe label on a disc to darken
the gray to be more black-ish.

If you want to promote yourself via discs, get a disc printer and
printable discs. Even a Sharpie marked printable disc is more legible
after several years than a Lightscribed disc. Lightscribe specialty
disc inventory is fading. They aren't manufacturered anymore. You get
what is left in stock. Stores haven't carried them for many years.
Amazon and eBay are about it.

With the ever increasing size of boot images and ISO files, and with no
development of Lightscribe on Blu-ray discs, a dual layer DVD+R disc is
the max capacity you can use with Lightscribe. HP, Samsung, LaCie, and
LiteOn discontinued manufacture of Lightscribe drives. LG was the last
to make one, but they dropped it, too.

Ant wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
...
If you have to work on antique computers, do you get an added premium
atop your hourly rate? Oops, I forgot, we're talking about Windows 10.
If your customer's computers support, at least, the minimum requirements
for Windows 10, they can boot from USB.

Are there people using W10 on very old PCs?

As I recall, the general consensus is that Windows 10 is installable on
computers manufacturered within the last 2 years. With each added year
of age, stability and compability wane incrementally. There's also a
difference between "possible" and "usable".

T was implying that his customers might not have mobos that can boot
from a USB device. I've had mobos with USB boot option for 18 years. I
doubt Windows 10 could be installed on any computers older than that.

Big Al wrote:

Since reminding me that the ISO is a read once then the rest of the
job is done without the ISO, one could just download on site (if
bandwidth is available) and mount the ISO and run from there. No
media needed at all.

Have you seen a BIOS/UEFI that can mount ISO image that can be booted
before loading any OS? Without any media on which ISO image is stored,
just where is "there" in "run from there" to get the ISO image?

Arlen Holder wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:37:51 -0400, Paul wrote:

maybe you have to
start by "enabling" USB in the BIOS setup screen,

Hi Paul,
This machine is so old it doesn't even have the USB ports on the front.
o The BIOS doesn't even have an option to boot to USB.

When I stick a USB Windows 10 2004, it doesn't see it.
o When I stick the Windows 10 2004, it does see it.

If this machine is from the year 2003 to the year 2005,
is it even a candidate for Windows 10 2004 ?

A machine that can't boot from USB, what are the odds
it has the instruction set needed for Windows 10 compatibility ?

Paul

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 15:53:38 -0500, Ant wrote:

Are there people using W10 on very old PCs?

Hi Ant,

I normally see you over at the Apple newsgroups, so it's nice to see you
here.

I think _plenty_ of people have W10 on "old" computers (for some value of
"old").

Mine are originally Win7 desktops, which went through the transition phase.
o I happen to have the one I'm using open, where 2001 is its birth date.

I just checked the other desktop (currently kaput due to a bad HDD boot
sector, but Paul is helping me get it back online); it's a _lot_ newer, at
2009.

Both work just fine with Win10 Pro.
--
What do you consider to be a "very old" PC anyway?

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:37:51 -0400, Paul wrote:

maybe you have to
start by "enabling" USB in the BIOS setup screen,

Hi Paul,
This machine is so old it doesn't even have the USB ports on the front.
o The BIOS doesn't even have an option to boot to USB.

When I stick a USB Windows 10 2004, it doesn't see it.
o When I stick the Windows 10 2004, it does see it.
--
I'm not gonna worry about USB though, since the DVD works.

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 20:37:12 -0400, Paul wrote:

A machine that can't boot from USB, what are the odds
it has the instruction set needed for Windows 10 compatibility ?

Funny you ask as I just looked at the DOB for both my desktops, one of
which is the kaput one (bad HDD boot sector where I just haven't bought a
new HDD yet to back it up onto).

One is 2009 (the bad desktop), the other 2001, the one I'm using now.
o The BIOS on the bad desktop is 8/31/2009.

I don't want to reboot this desktop to tell you its date, 'cuz, as far as I
know, Windows 10 works just fine on both (I've had Windows 10 Pro on them
for years, but they were born with Windows 7, as I recall).
--
It's rare on Usenet to find someone like you and I; we don't bull****.

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 17:28:04 -0400, Paul wrote:

But generally, finding good media today is pretty hard.

I'm a Costco aficionado, where I used to buy the stack of, oh, maybe 100 at
a time, but they don't sell 'em anymore at Costco (AFAIK).
--
I'm slowly getting to the panic point where I might have to go out and buy
some (I'm not a big online buyer).

Arlen Holder wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 10:21:42 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

USB sticks are faster (read and write), more reliable

Are USB sticks really "more reliable" than DVD discs?
o I'm not saying they are or they're not... I'm just asking.

Writeable DVDs are *very* fragile. Any kind of scratch can render them
unreadable. Pressed DVDs are much better, but still need careful handling.

USB sticks can be kept with your keys or chucked in a bag or bashed about.
I've had the case fall apart on one and it still worked.

So yes, more reliable.

I've lost entire sticks, which just stopped reading.
o The entire USB stick file system was hosed, dunno why.

Shrug. Things fail and nothing's bulletproof.

Of course, you can ta DVD disc in the sun and it will also be toast.
o Is USB media really more reliable than DVD media?

Ant wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
...
If you have to work on antique computers, do you get an added premium
atop your hourly rate? Oops, I forgot, we're talking about Windows 10.
If your customer's computers support, at least, the minimum requirements
for Windows 10, they can boot from USB.

Are there people using W10 on very old PCs?

Of course! Not necessarily well, though...

On 24/06/2020 02.08, Arlen Holder wrote:
The problem I hate with USB sticks is that you have to eject them before
pulling them out (at least you used to have to, afaik).

If someone doesn't do that, BAM. All your data is lost.
(Yes, you can heroically recover the data, thousands of files with no first
character in the name and no hierarchy, etc.).

So USB sticks _suck_ for archival of data, IMHO, since they're so fragile.

That has nothing to do with being USB, it is common for all removable
read/write media. Even a floppy. And happens on every operating system.



On the other hand, I had bad quality CD/DVDs fail to burn properly, or
some burning accident. Enough of them to make a tea set. But none that
failed months after being burnt.

I'm not so worried about bad burns as ImgBurn will verify them; but DVDs
can only hold roughly 4GB which is too small nowadays, and they're not
easily bought by the hundreds at Costco anymore either.

You can use Blue Ray instead. Up to 100 GB.


So both DVD and USB suck, IMHO, for achival:
o USB is so fragile as to be supremely untrustworthy, IMHO
o DVD is so small as to be almost useless, IMHO.

Must be something better.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/06/2020 03.02, Arlen Holder wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 20:37:12 -0400, Paul wrote:

A machine that can't boot from USB, what are the odds
it has the instruction set needed for Windows 10 compatibility ?

Funny you ask as I just looked at the DOB for both my desktops, one of
which is the kaput one (bad HDD boot sector where I just haven't bought a
new HDD yet to back it up onto).

One is 2009 (the bad desktop), the other 2001, the one I'm using now.
o The BIOS on the bad desktop is 8/31/2009.

I don't want to reboot this desktop to tell you its date, 'cuz, as far as I
know, Windows 10 works just fine on both (I've had Windows 10 Pro on them
for years, but they were born with Windows 7, as I recall).

A machine that came with Windows 7 is modern and should have workable
USB ports. Either they are broken for some reason, or it was a refurbish
at the time, o a very old one.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 6/23/2020 5:17 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
Ant wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
...
If you have to work on antique computers, do you get an added premium
atop your hourly rate? Oops, I forgot, we're talking about Windows 10.
If your customer's computers support, at least, the minimum requirements
for Windows 10, they can boot from USB.

Are there people using W10 on very old PCs?

As I recall, the general consensus is that Windows 10 is installable on
computers manufacturered within the last 2 years. With each added year
of age, stability and compability wane incrementally. There's also a
difference between "possible" and "usable".



The computer I'm currently using is not *very* old, but it's been
significantly more than two years. It was custom-built for me in 2015.
It has always been running Windows 10 (originally Home, but upgraded to
Professional), it's had all the updates to it installed when they were
released, and it's been almost completely stable.

My wife's computer is even older--a Dell, bought in 2013. It originally
ran Windows 8, but was upgraded to Windows 10. It too has had all the
updates to it installed when they were released, and it's been almost
completely stable.

--
Ken

On 6/24/2020 4:34 AM, Chris wrote:
Ant wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
...
If you have to work on antique computers, do you get an added premium
atop your hourly rate? Oops, I forgot, we're talking about Windows 10.
If your customer's computers support, at least, the minimum requirements
for Windows 10, they can boot from USB.

Are there people using W10 on very old PCs?

Of course! Not necessarily well, though...


It depends entirely on what's meant by "very old." Depending on how old
it is and what the hardware configuration is, it may or may not be
possible to run Windows 10 on a "very old" computer.

My first PC was an IBM XT clone, bought in 1987. It had an 8088
processor, 64KB of RAM, and a 20MB HD. Could it have run Windows 10? Of
course not.

And of course, if someone has a very old computer with a hardware
configuration that won't run Windows 10, he can almost always upgrade
the incompatible components to newer ones. Does that still qualify as a
very-old computer? Some people would say yes, others no.


--
Ken

Chris wrote:
Arlen Holder wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 10:21:42 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

USB sticks are faster (read and write), more reliable
Are USB sticks really "more reliable" than DVD discs?
o I'm not saying they are or they're not... I'm just asking.

Writeable DVDs are *very* fragile. Any kind of scratch can render them
unreadable. Pressed DVDs are much better, but still need careful handling.


Optical discs have interleaved Reed Solomon error correction.

What this does to the discs, is it makes the direction of
the scratch an issue. Scratches could be radial or
tangential, and one kind of scratch is a lot more
damaging than the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed%E...ror_correction

"The result is a CIRC that can completely correct error bursts
up to 4000 bits, or about 2.5 mm on the disc surface. This code
is so strong that most CD playback errors are almost certainly
caused by tracking errors that cause the laser to jump track,
not by uncorrectable error bursts.

Another article mentions that:

DVDs use an 8-error correcting RS(208, 192) code
and a 5-error correcting RS(182, 172) code.

One of the DVD scanning applications can show the error
rate on burned media. It's one of the quality checks
people used to do, back in the day, to determine whether
their burner was really reading the tag on the media
properly. Or just selecting an arbitrary power level
for the burn and producing non-optimal results. I had one
drive, that the initial firmware sucked, and once I installed
the updated firmware (with support for the tags finished),
my quality problems vanished.

No burn is error free. Even with good results, the error
indicator might be at the 10 level. The discs begin to
lose tracking at the 10^4 error rate level. There's about
a factor of a thousand between a "good" burn and a "bad" burn.
If there wasn't any error correction, like the Reed Solomon
they're using, you'd never get your data back, intact.

Paul