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  #136  
Old July 13th 18, 09:29 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:26:20 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote:

[]
Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore"
[long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire]
identically.



Yes, same here. Two syllables to one.




Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either
do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My
parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with
examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the
(final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no
distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do.


In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of
the city is pronounced the same as a female horse,




To me, "mayor" has two syllables and "mare" has one.


and the blooming part
of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern
towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two
syllables.ith a "you".)




To me, both "flower" and "flour are also pronounced the same way, and
both also have two syllables.

I remember having a conversation years ago with a woman from North
Carolina who I worked with. She kept talking about what sounded to me
like "flahs." I didn't understand her and kept asking what she meant,
and she got very insulted and thought I was making fun of her. But I
wasn't; I really didn't understand that that was the way she
pronounced "flowers." She was strongly non-rhotic and pronounced it as
one syllable.
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  #137  
Old July 14th 18, 02:36 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Java Jive
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On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of
the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part
of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern
towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two
syllables.


No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.
  #138  
Old July 14th 18, 12:14 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
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Java Jive wrote:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader
of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming
part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more
northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a
definite two syllables.


No, not at all.* I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.


I was brought up in the north of England, and I pronounce those words
with exactly the syllable lengths you mention.
'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.

Between 27 and 34 I lived and worked on the south coast in E Sussex, but
I've been back up north ever since.

Ed
  #139  
Old July 14th 18, 01:14 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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In message , Java Jive
writes:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader
of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the
blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in
more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a
definite two syllables.


No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.


Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is
obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA
too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce
that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you
were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south,
yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class.

I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a
term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as
two syllables.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Grammar is there to help, not hinder."
-- Mark Wallace, APIHNA, 2nd December 2000 (quoted by John Flynn 2000-12-6)
  #140  
Old July 14th 18, 04:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
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"NY" on Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:25:01 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .
"Merry Mary is soon to marry."


For me, merry, mary and marry have three different vowels.

"My Aunt is afraid of ants."


Both the same. If I had to distinguish, maybe I would length the vowel in
aunt *very* slightly.

"A bison is what you worsh yer face in."


I might say all this in a fake Cockney accent, as spoken by Arthur Mullard,
or by Warren Mitchell as Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part :-)


Or regional US/Australian.


I read somewhere of the phrase that was taught to aspiring debutantes at
"finishing school" who wanted to lose their provincial accents and acquire
an RP (Received Pronunciation - BBC) accent:

Pass me a glass - I want to have a bath.

The implication is that all the A sounds should be long, as in "ar", but I
lost it at the logic of the sentence - I've a mental image of a nubile lass
trying to shrink herself so she is small enough to have a bath in a glass
:-)


Or "if you think I'm going to take a bath sober ... pass me a
glass."

I recall reading that the English language has some 2300
expressions to describe the intoxicated state. (e.G., "Tired and
emotional", "a wee bit unmindful", three sheets, ****ed, and so forth)
I informed by then girlfriend of this factoid, and her response was
"Yes, and the Esquimoux have 32 words for 'snow'." I cracked up.)
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #141  
Old July 14th 18, 04:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" on Sat, 14 Jul 2018
13:14:32 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
In message , Java Jive
writes:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader
of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the
blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in
more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a
definite two syllables.


No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.


Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is
obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA
too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce
that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you
were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south,
yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class.


and "class" started as "regional dialect". E.G., The Kings
English, because that's the dialect of London.

I ran into this a bit, what Spanish I knew came with the Madrid
Accent I sound "odd" to American ears. (I also recall a ferfluffle
about a Spanish language 'Life of Jesus'. The settle on giving Jesus
the Proper Madrid /Castilian accent, while the disciples had various
"rustic" accents.)

I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a
term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as
two syllables.


What was it Shaw wrote "It is impossible for an Englishman to open
his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him."
(Although I like the phrasing from "My Fair Lady.")
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #142  
Old July 14th 18, 05:43 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mr. Man-wai Chang
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On 7/6/2018 11:25 PM, freface wrote:
Win 7 Pro.* All updates.

C:\ is full.
Deleted obvious stuff but only got 200MB freed.
Googled and got confused.
WinSxS has 13G in the folder.


Do you have an C:\Windows.Old folder?

--
@[email protected] Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
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  #143  
Old July 14th 18, 07:51 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
NY
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Posts: 526
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Java Jive
writes:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of
the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part
of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern
towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two
syllables.


No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.


I think JJ might be referring to inner-London accents (formerly Cockney, now
Estuary English), as opposed to all south-of-England accents.

Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is
obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too.
I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that
word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as
you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you
pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class.

I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term
of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two
syllables.


Yes I always try to make a distinction between near-homonyms like
flower/flour, to avoid confusion.

My mum, who is from the north side of Leeds (think of an Alan Bennett
accent!) leaned some strange pronunciations, probably from her
social-climbing father - for example, she pronounces invalid (disabled
person, as opposed to not-valid) as invaleed with a long I sound.

At my infant/junior school in the same part of Leeds, which was where I grew
up as well, the headmistress tried to instil in us "proper" pronunciation,
and insisted on "syoot" for suit, "lunch-ee-on" instead of "lunch'n" or
(heaven forbid) "lunch", and "hwite" (white) with a very definite H sound at
the beginning. I think she was fighting a losing battle because most of us
had normal middle-class-Leeds accents without any of her pretentious
pronunciation. I remember one of my teachers, who was probably more a rebel
than the others, always referred to the head as Mrs HHHHHHHHHHwhite with a
very exaggerated, heavily aspirated H; even at at six I realised that she
was taking the ****. :-)

There is nothing funnier than a person who is trying (and failing
spectacularly) to put on a more refayned accent. My other grandpa was a
headmaster (with a short A, not headmarster) and spoke with an educated but
unashamed West Riding (of Yorkshire) accent, and he wouldn't change it.
Except in one situation, he had to... In the 1950s he was asked to give some
talks on the Home Service "Children's Hour" radio programme about his pet
subject: steam railways. He was told to tone down his native accent and was
even given some elocution lessons. Caught between the devil and the deep
blue sea (he wouldn't willing change his accent but realised that he might
otherwise lose the chance to appear on The Wireless) he treated the lessons
with the contempt that they deserved, and hammed it up and over-acted
terribly. How do I know? Because they gave him a recording, on a
shellac-on-aluminium 78 rpm record, of one of his talks. The timbre of his
voice is recognisable, as is the occasional moment when his real accent
shows through, but otherwise he sounds like Bob Danvers-Walker (who voiced a
lot of the post-war newsreels) or Harry Enfield's character Mr
Chomondley-Warner. At one point in his talk he says "and by now the smoke is
coming out of the chimney like a bullet from a gun" - except he pronounces
it "the smaoke is caming aout of the chimney laike a ballit fram a gan". I
remember he had me in stitches when he first played me the recording when I
was a child. He described the elocution teacher as "a reet wazzock" - which
is not a compliment :-)

  #144  
Old July 14th 18, 11:01 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ian Jackson[_4_]
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In message , Java Jive
writes
On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that
sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would
imagine Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than
cabbagewriter (-:


Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke!


I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian
works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the
aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates
back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names
I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for
their names, the locals would often give something false and comical,
Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names
stuck.
--
Ian
  #145  
Old July 15th 18, 12:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
NY
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Posts: 526
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"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , Java Jive
writes
On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that
sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would imagine
Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than cabbagewriter
(-:


Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke!


I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian
works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the
aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates
back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I
came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their
names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their
oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names stuck.


That is similar to the situation with place names in the UK. Apparently when
the Ordnance Survey surveyors came round to small rural communities and
asked "what's that hill called?" or "what's that valley called", the locals,
who were probably being asked these questions in the pub after consuming
many pints, responded with made-up ribald names. It is alleged that near
Todmorden (stress on first and third syllables) in West Yorkshire (or
Lancashire - it's changed sides a few times over the years) there are
features marked on a map which have names ****en Clough and ****ten Clough
(a clough - pronounced cluff - is a ravine).

Kudos to anyone who finds these on a map (current or historical) because I
can't.

  #146  
Old July 15th 18, 12:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Java Jive
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Posts: 299
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On 14/07/2018 19:51, NY wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...

In message , Java Jive
writes:

On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the
leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the
blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in
more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have
a definite two syllables.

No, not at all.* I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of
England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two
syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in
between, but I'd say more one than two.


I think JJ might be referring to inner-London accents (formerly Cockney,
now Estuary English), as opposed to all south-of-England accents.


No, you've completely misunderstood me - I mean that I was brought up
in what was then termed, and perhaps still is now however much I may
dislike such stereotyping, an upper-middle class family, with minor
aristocratic connections. I went to a 'good' school and learnt to speak
'The Queen's English' which the BBC would call 'Received Pronunciation'
or RP. However, in my middle to late teens I refused to go back to that
school, which I hated, and instead went to what we'd now call a 6th form
college in SE London, and that was when my accent, not to mention
vernacular vocabulary, started to diversify! My accent now has
smatterings of RP, Scots both because my mother's family were from up
here and I now live here, SE 'Lunnon', and almost everywhere else that
I've lived, such as 'Brissol', Cambridge, etc.

However, the words we were discussing, I still pronounce essentially the
same way as I was brought up to do, just, hopefully, in a more everyday
and less noticeably upper class twittish sort of way. Thus I was
refuting J P Gilliver's assertion that in the south mayor = mare, etc.
There are noticeable differences between northern and southern accents,
but I never met anyone who pronounces 'mayor' as 'mare'. There may well
be such people, but I've lived around a good few places around the
south, and cannot recall hearing this, so I doubt if it can be very common.

Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is
obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA
too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some
pronounce that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you
say you were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the
south, yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as)
"affected" class.

I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a
term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it
as two syllables.


There is nothing funnier than a person who is trying (and failing
spectacularly) to put on a more refayned accent.


Or the other way around ...

My mother, like some other Scots people, had the unconscious habit of
mimicking those they were talking to. Once my stepfather's star
research graduate rang up, and although she never spoke his name, I
could tell immediately from her unconscious mimicry of him exactly who
it was - he was from India - and I was sent out of the room because
I near fell off my chair laughing.

And also ...

http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Re...s/Accents.html
  #147  
Old July 15th 18, 12:57 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Java Jive
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Posts: 299
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On 14/07/2018 23:01, Ian Jackson wrote:

In message , Java Jive

Aw, now you've gone an' ruined a perfectly good joke!


I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian
works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the
aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates
back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names
I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for
their names, the locals would often give something false and comical,
Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better -* but the names stuck.


Likewise when Gaelic was banned in Ireland and Scotland. The Clancy
Brothers & Tommy Makem used to perform this, and used to say when
introducing it: "It wasn't written so much as to show the great love
between the Irish and the Jews, as much as it was to show the stupidity
of the British!" ...

http://www.irishsongs.com/lyrics.php...ew&Song_id=245

(BTW, IIRC Briscoe mentioned in the song was a Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin.)
  #148  
Old July 15th 18, 04:42 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
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"NY" on Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:21:27 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , Java Jive
writes
On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that
sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would imagine
Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than cabbagewriter
(-:

Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke!


I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian
works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the
aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates
back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I
came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their
names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their
oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names stuck.


That is similar to the situation with place names in the UK. Apparently when
the Ordnance Survey surveyors came round to small rural communities and
asked "what's that hill called?" or "what's that valley called", the locals,
who were probably being asked these questions in the pub after consuming
many pints, responded with made-up ribald names. It is alleged that near
Todmorden (stress on first and third syllables) in West Yorkshire (or
Lancashire - it's changed sides a few times over the years) there are
features marked on a map which have names ****en Clough and ****ten Clough
(a clough - pronounced cluff - is a ravine).


Flucked Again Lake - supposedly the sanitized version of the
surveyors notes as they came over the ridge and were "flucked again"
by the lake being where they needed to make their measurements.

Kudos to anyone who finds these on a map (current or historical) because I
can't.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #149  
Old October 7th 18, 11:32 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
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Posts: 421
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Java Jive on Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:05:15 +0100
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On 09/07/2018 17:32, NY wrote:

My basic O-level German


So how does Michaela Kirkgasser's name translate? I thought that
perhaps kirk was church, as in lowland scots, but online translaters
recognise neither that nor gasser.


One thing to keep in mind - the name as it is, may or may not have
gotten "fixed" at some point. A perfectly good "German Name" gets
written down in English and nobody pays attention till later, if at
all.
I Knew a guy who's cousin was Fritz Mondale - the VP candidate.
When their families came to the US and bought farms, Mr Mundale's name
was spelled "Mondale". Easier to adopt the "official" spelling.
Much as Dad's buddy who took flak from his father for entering
Seminary "to avoid the draft". "No Frimoth ever evaded military
service!" "That's right! Grandpa wasn't a Frimoth when he left
Denmark to avoid the Danish draft." {sf/x: rimshot!}

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
 




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