Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time without wiping it?

Leythos wrote:
Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many
compromised computers with many different types of malware.

As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the
tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their
machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup
their documents and files to restore later.

What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have
to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and
future environment for a givem machine at a given instant.

This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any
individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point
that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is
removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it.

Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a
compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or
unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time?

Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without
limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure
their machines are clean?

We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a
clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment.

We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine
from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and
that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for
customers.

We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of
extra work.

Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some
cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the
recovery console and manually remove it.

So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to
CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and
the system is clean enough to be certified as clean.

While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several
times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the
malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're
willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in
to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we
don't really want to reinstall everything again

I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but,
if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the
time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a
wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself.

Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and
methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this
group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100%
clean platform to continue with?

I'm not 100% sure I'll wake up every morning..
(or even where sometimes..)

So - it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim 100% certainty on anything
with as many variables as that.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Shenan Stanley wrote:
Leythos wrote:

Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many
compromised computers with many different types of malware.

As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the
tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their
machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup
their documents and files to restore later.

What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have
to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and
future environment for a givem machine at a given instant.

This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any
individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point
that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is
removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it.

Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a
compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or
unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time?

Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without
limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure
their machines are clean?

We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a
clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment.

We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine
from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and
that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for
customers.

We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of
extra work.

Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some
cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the
recovery console and manually remove it.

So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to
CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and
the system is clean enough to be certified as clean.

While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several
times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the
malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're
willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in
to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we
don't really want to reinstall everything again

I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but,
if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the
time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a
wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself.

Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and
methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this
group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100%
clean platform to continue with?


I'm not 100% sure I'll wake up every morning..
(or even where sometimes..)

So - it would be ridiculous for anyone to claim 100% certainty on anything
with as many variables as that.

I understand that the most secure server is one encased in a concrete
room, well underground with no incoming or outgoing wires (yes,
deductions can be made purely from observations of mains power use).
The trouble is that it ceases to be a server.

On the otherhand, the most functional server is one that can be reached
freely but this tends to be the least secure

Between these two extremes are the do-able IMO

In ,
deebs had this to say:

My reply is at the bottom of your sent message:

Between these two extremes are the do-able IMO

Heyya Deebs... Pick what you want to do, know what the risks are, and then
make your choice based on what you want to accomplish today. That's my
truthful recommendation. If you LIKE using a poker playing program and don't
mind leeking your personal information or make it a point not to keep any
real info on there and don't mind your PC slowing down when you fill it full
of trash then so be it. Who am I to say what you can't do? What I do think
is that there should be some sort of minimal standard of protection (with
optional over-ride until the point at which they become a source of
infection) enforced by the ISP. Now that'd be alright...

--
Galen - MS MVP - Windows (Shell/User & IE)
http://dts-l.org/

Please note that if you're reading this in a browser and the domain is
not owned by Microsoft then this work is being used without permission.

Access MS Newsgroups :
http://kgiii.info/windows/all/general/msnewsgroups.html