Why is MS Word so difficult

I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.

micky wrote:

I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

Let me guess. He wrote the entire letter without saving it once, right?
That's not a "Microsoft" problem, that's a "your brother" problem.

And what was the "small window" anyway? I can't think of anything that would
randomly pop up where clicking it would hide Word.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

Not deliberately, I would think.

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Word

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

The AppData folder is usually hidden, yes. Open Explorer and paste the path
in the address bar and it will take you straight there, if it exists,
regardless of whether it's hidden or not.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

I believe Microsoft assumes that the average user doesn't know the first
thing about the computer beyond what's presented to them via the desktop and
the start menu.

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.

You have to save the document as you're working on it. I tend to save things
basically every time I make any changes at all.

--
Someday, the children of the new sun will meet the children of the old.
I think they will be our friends.

micky wrote:
I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.

That's why I un-hide the hidden stuff on my setups here.

And the search is none too swift either. If you're on an
Easter Egg hunt, you can try Agent Ransack, but even it
cannot look inside a folder which is Access Denied. I've run
into a few cases now, where just about all the tools let me down.

Voidtools "everything.exe" gets file information by reading
the $MFT (Master File Table) directly. This gives the file
name, but not any details. And unfortunately, they couldn't
leave well enough alone, so they still traverse the file system
to get size or date information to display (Access Denied comes
back into play). If they stuck with just file names, then we
might have a means to list things inside Access Denied regions.
To read the $MFT requires Administrator privileges (a privilege
which isn't enough to side-step Access Denied in a
direct way).

But at least you were looking in all the right places,
so good work on the catch.

It seems computers were invented for Developers, and
back in the day, nobody knew that.

It's like using a tool like GreaseMonkey or TamperMonkey - you
have to be a web developer to figure out what to do with it.
Unqualified users need not apply. Same with F12 Developer Tools
in Firefox - not designed for end users, not as useful
as it might be. A swing and a miss.

Paul

micky wrote:
I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.


Word has a setting to auto-save on a time interval. Look in its settings to
see where the backups are placed.
--
Zaidy036

On 12/17/2017 7:06 PM, Auric__ wrote:
micky wrote:

I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

Let me guess. He wrote the entire letter without saving it once, right?
That's not a "Microsoft" problem, that's a "your brother" problem.

And what was the "small window" anyway? I can't think of anything that would
randomly pop up where clicking it would hide Word.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

Not deliberately, I would think.

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Word

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

The AppData folder is usually hidden, yes. Open Explorer and paste the path
in the address bar and it will take you straight there, if it exists,
regardless of whether it's hidden or not.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

I believe Microsoft assumes that the average user doesn't know the first
thing about the computer beyond what's presented to them via the desktop and
the start menu.

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.

You have to save the document as you're working on it. I tend to save things
basically every time I make any changes at all.

The first thing I do on a new installation or new computer is to set it
so I see all files and folders.


In File Explorer click the View tab, and then Options. In File Options
click the View tab.

Make sure "Show hidden files, Folders, and Drives"

and the following is unchecked
- "Hide Extensions for known file types"
- "Hide Protected operating system files (Recommended)"

With these settings you can find the profiles for programs like Firefox,
Thunderbird, and others.


And you can find the temporary folders for storing back up from programs
like Word Perfect, MS Word, etc.

--
2017: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:28:58 -0000 (UTC),
Zaidy036 wrote:


Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.


Word has a setting to auto-save on a time interval. Look in its settings to
see where the backups are placed.

That was one of the settings on teh same page with the backup folders,
and it was set at iirc 10 minutes. Since I'm sure he spent more than 10
minutes on this, shouldn't it have tried to save it and asked him to
provide file name? It never did that.
--
Zaidy036

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:11:06 -0500, Paul
wrote:


That's why I un-hide the hidden stuff on my setups here.

Me too, but a) I don't monitor my brother's computer. I don't think he
wants me to, and sometimes he buys an new one. b) there are
disadvantages for him, that it will show a lot of extra files that will
"confuse" him.

So i wouldn't want for him all of them to be showing, but why isn't the
DATA directory showing? It's HIS data. He wrote it. Why is it a
secret from him?

Looking at it another way, he wouldn't think to look in the settings to
learn the backup directory and then go to the directory to look for his
file. There should be a way within Word that shows document 1 and
document 2. My brother did't name them but Word named them, then they
hide them.

And the search is none too swift either. If you're on an
Easter Egg hunt, you can try Agent Ransack, but even it
cannot look inside a folder which is Access Denied. I've run
into a few cases now, where just about all the tools let me down.

Voidtools "everything.exe" gets file information by reading

That's what I did. I installed that and searched for the doc which he
told me was "document 1". I just searched for "c:\ document" and it
found it right away, it was the 5th newest file listed.

But he shouldn't need me. They should make it easy for him to find
himself. If they had a folder called Drafts, that could point to any
directory they want, that might do it. They've had 20 years to get
this right and they haven't.


the $MFT (Master File Table) directly. This gives the file
name, but not any details. And unfortunately, they couldn't
leave well enough alone, so they still traverse the file system
to get size or date information to display (Access Denied comes
back into play). If they stuck with just file names, then we
might have a means to list things inside Access Denied regions.
To read the $MFT requires Administrator privileges (a privilege
which isn't enough to side-step Access Denied in a
direct way).

But at least you were looking in all the right places,
so good work on the catch.

It seems computers were invented for Developers, and
back in the day, nobody knew that.

It's like using a tool like GreaseMonkey or TamperMonkey - you
have to be a web developer to figure out what to do with it.
Unqualified users need not apply. Same with F12 Developer Tools
in Firefox - not designed for end users, not as useful
as it might be. A swing and a miss.

Paul

Thanks for your answer. The long post I didn't reply to just made
excuses for MS's love of secrecy and lack of consideration for the user.
They go out of their way to sell it to everyone and it's no defense for
MS to say every user should know how to find a file which has
disappeared and is in a hidden directory.

micky wrote:


Looking at it another way, he wouldn't think to look in the settings to
learn the backup directory and then go to the directory to look for his
file.

Is there any way to change the temporary folder it
uses for Autosaves ?

http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/

1. Open Word and click on File Options.

2. Now go to Save section and make sure that
Save AutoRecover information option is checked.

Here you can set the desired time interval for auto save.

3. Look for AutoRecover file location field.

It will show you the location of the autosave directory.

By default the location should be AppData...Baloney.

If you want, you can easily change the location by clicking
the Browse button and choosing a different directory on your PC.

Note that the web page above has adverts sandwiched right
into the article, with an almost imperceptible background
color change. Presumably this is to get more click-monkeys
to click on their junkware adverts. Miserable *******s.
More work for people to clean up later, when somebody
clicks the wrong link.

HTH,
Paul

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:02:05 -0500, micky
wrote:

I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word

I think Word is the wrong software for your brother. Switch to Google
Docs and you will never have to manually save files again. And the
software is much easier to use. If you use Chrome you can configure it
for working offline, too.

Regards

M.

Keith Nuttle wrote:

The first thing I do on a new installation or new computer is to set it
so I see all files and folders.

I stopped doing that on my own machine some years ago. I have some things on
my desktop that I don't want visible, so I set them hidden, then set my file
manager (not Explorer) to display hidden files instead.

--
Suicide is inimical to the health of the participant.

On 12/17/17 4:02 PM, micky wrote:
I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word and a small window opened up and he clicked on it, and
his letter disappeared.

So with Teamviewer, I'm trying to help him get it back...

Well, we gave up and he tried to close the computer and it gave a
message that 2 documents were open, and one was the important one, and
he called me again and I brought it up, named it, and saved it.

But doesn't MS make this harder than it should be?

He wouldn't think of this but I opened options and saw that recovery
backups are saved in
C:\users\mybrother\appdata\roaming\word, or something like that.

But when I tried to find this directory, there was no appdata under
mybrother. Now I'm sort of slow so it didnt' occur to me that that's
one of the hidden filies... it is, isn't it? Why do they hide a
directory that hold application data, including text files that someone
like my brother was working on.

And since MS wrote both the OS and Word, doesn't it know that directory
is often hidden and why doesn't it make it easier to find a lost file
like this?

Even gmail, not one of the easiest thigns to use, has a folder called
Drafts.

My brother is 77 yo. but that's not the problem. He's as smart as he
ever was but has never related well to computers. It seems to me that
MS makes it harder than ever.

I've advocated for years, that MS Office is simply not needed by the
average/normal user. And there are plenty of options to have something
simpler, and they are free.

My suggestions, use whatever you like...

I would only turn on hidden system files when you are trying to help
him. Then turn them off. He might accidentally delete a really
important file.

If your brother is just doing simple writing, teach him how to use
WordPad. I did this with a senior who was also struggling with Word,
and she was off and running! If it gets to where WordPad is too
simplistic, move him to something with more options but not as complex
as Word. Just like what you learn in 1st grade, and building on that as
you progress through high school and college.

IMO, MS Office is not a piece of software for beginners. The last
Windows version of Office I bought is 2007. For my Mac, 2011. I won't
be updating. If he has problem with Word, Open Office/Libre Office
won't be a good option.

On Windows, I use Softmaker Office 2016. It's a lot like using Word
2003, but without a lot of the features most users don't need. They
have a simpler version called Free Office. Another one is WPS Office
(formerly Kingsoft Office", both free and paid for.

Do a web search for free office suites, there are lot of options most
don't know of.

Does he need some basic knowledge about computers? Hire him a tutor
that will explain things with out the computer speak. Or, an online
class. For online learning, I rather like the courses he
https://www.learningexpresshub.com/p...xerrorpath=%2F
They may or may not be what your brother needs.

If you take the time to check them out, I'd appreciate your thoughts on
courses.

I met a senior about a month ago, who called me, after losing a file
that was important to her and she couldn't find it. It was gone for
good, but fortunately she had printed it out, and could retype it. Know
what the problem was??? She had owned this computer since 8.0 was
introduced, and still didn't know how to save a file! She was using
WordPad.

Since he never related well to computers, switching from Word to Google
docs may just be swapping one area of complexity that he doesn't
understand for another area of complexity he won't understand.

By default, Word will save a document, providing the user tells Word to
save it, in the Documents folder. And, by default, loads from that
folder. Unless something goes awry, you should never have to access the
info in the AppData folder, AFAIK. And yes, AppData is normally hidden.

As someone mentioned, turn on AutoSave. If something does go awry, Word
should prompt you about the autosaved file(s) when you restart Word.
AFAIK, the system does not protect from the user error of not saving a
file. AutoSave is not designed to prompt the user to save the file,
it's a backup system for crashes. If you want your file saved every 10
minutes and make it easy to access, the user has to save the file.

I'm not sure a Drafts folder will solve your problem. Just save the
file, incomplete, like you would a finished file. I use my own naming
convention with frequent saves, for different versions of the file.




--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:03:50 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:


Looking at it another way, he wouldn't think to look in the settings to
learn the backup directory and then go to the directory to look for his
file.

Is there any way to change the temporary folder it
uses for Autosaves ?

That's a very good idea. I should have thought of it.

It's a better idea than unhiding everything, because this is the first
time there has been an issue with hidden files.

Not sure what to change it to. I hate the long train of
subdirectories** and would just use C:\data\word\unfinished or maybe
drafts. **Part of the reason for which is so more than one person can
use the computer, but how often does that happen?


There are actually two directories, autosave and recovery. The default
autosave C:\Users\mybrother\Documents\ is not hidden.

Have Word Starter edition and it looks the same and it has "Keep the
last autosaved version if I close without saving" which is pretty much
the situation my brother was in.

Assuming I can get my brother to use File Manager, or whatever they
call it in 10, that would help a lot. I also, even before I posted,
tried to get him to save the file immediately after starting it, and I
think he said he would, but you know how people are.

http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/

1. Open Word and click on File Options.

2. Now go to Save section and make sure that
Save AutoRecover information option is checked.

Here you can set the desired time interval for auto save.

3. Look for AutoRecover file location field.

It will show you the location of the autosave directory.

By default the location should be AppData...Baloney.

If you want, you can easily change the location by clicking
the Browse button and choosing a different directory on your PC.

Note that the web page above has adverts sandwiched right
into the article, with an almost imperceptible background
color change. Presumably this is to get more click-monkeys
to click on their junkware adverts. Miserable *******s.
More work for people to clean up later, when somebody
clicks the wrong link.

You're right.




HTH,
Paul

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 09:21:05 +0100, Michael
Logies wrote:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:02:05 -0500, micky
wrote:

I'm trying to help my brother, who uses win10 and was writing a long
letter in Word

I think Word is the wrong software for your brother. Switch to Google
Docs and you will never have to manually save files again. And the
software is much easier to use. If you use Chrome you can configure it
for working offline, too.

I'll tell him about it. Thanks.

Regards

M.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:20:01 -0000 (UTC),
"Auric__" wrote:

Keith Nuttle wrote:

The first thing I do on a new installation or new computer is to set it
so I see all files and folders.

I stopped doing that on my own machine some years ago. I have some things on
my desktop that I don't want visible, so I set them hidden, then set my file
manager (not Explorer) to display hidden files instead.

That would have worked for me when I used almost exclusively Power Desk.
But it doesn't come in a 64-bit version (and won't display certain files
at all!) so I'm been trying lots of file managers. Right now xplorer2
is winning, but it's not for sure.

One thing I liked about Powerdesk is that it could be set to start up
with the same directories open as either the previous time or some fixed
time.

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 18 Dec 2017 03:03:50 -0500, Paul
wrote:


micky wrote:


Looking at it another way, he wouldn't think to look in the settings to
learn the backup directory and then go to the directory to look for his
file.

Is there any way to change the temporary folder it
uses for Autosaves ?

I did some experiementing with my own Word Starter Edition, and the
reason it didn't ask my brother to name and save his file is that it
does it automatically and silently to recovery-save directory.

In a way this is being "too smart by half" if you know what I mean. It's
a great plan if the user knows about it, and can find the file. In my
case, because I have it set to show all files, it was there when I
followed the instruction in the link
http://windowsreport.com/word-autosa...on-windows-10/ Butagain, I
wouldn't think to just use Open to find a file I didn't even know had
been saved. I thought the file was in a temp directory somewhere. Yes,
this is better than a temp directory, because it won't be erased by
ccleaner, but only if you know about it.

Someone who reviewed all the Options would figure it out, but I use Word
so rarely -- only once, iirc, when I was working with a non-Latin
alphabet -- that I didn't take the time to look at Options, and my
brother never does.

This is also a potential problem for Auric, who still has his files
hidden, because I'm 99% sure there is no way in Word to show hidden
files.