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#46
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new computer question
Since Papa did not like specs from Intel, then he was asked
to provide a URL for AMD power supply spec. He did not. I am still waiting for his URL. But based upon the technical merit of his last post, I doubt he has ever seen a power supply specification. Exampled was one essential power supply function. It was intentionally left for Papa to name this or any other essential power supply function: ... short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power supply must not be damaged. Apparently Papa does not even recognize the example as a essential function of all power supplies. Instead he disparages: Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. Papa did not even know that some power supplies don't even meet defacto standards of 30 years ago. Provided: that one essential power supply function. From Intel specs: 3.2.4 Power Limit Under shrot circuit or overload conditions, no output shall exceed 240 VA unde any conditions including single component fault conditions, per IEC 60950 requirements. ... 3.4.2 Short-circuit Protection ... The power supply shall shut down and latch off for shorting the +3.3 VDC, +5 VDC, or +12 VDC rails to return or any other rail. Shorts between the +5 VSB shall not cause any damage to the power supply. ... The power supply shall be capable of withstanding a continuous short-circuit to the output without damage or overstress to the unit under the input conditions specified in Sections 3.1. Papa is correct. I did not name the essential function. I simply exampled an essential function and let Papa name that function. Instead Papa did not even recognize it as an essential function - and posted: One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks some "essential functions". Papa does not even know of essential functions that must be in a computer power supply; even when one was exampled right before him. Unfortunately he is too typical of the many who recommend computers and computer components. Too many computer 'experts' don't even know what basic and essential functions must be included in a power supply. But they would even recommend a power supply anyway. No wonder jobs are leaving America to where people first learn technology before becoming an 'expert'. A benchmark for identifying the superior computer manufacturers - they provide comprehensive diagnostics. This benchmark eliminates many clone computer assemblers who too often don't even know of essential functions required in a power supply. Provided was an example of an essential power supply function. Papa could not name it - or any other essential function. Other essential functions would even be provided in box with a minimally acceptable power supply. But specs are not provided with supplies that are missing essential functions. All Papa had to do is list one item from that spec sheet. He could not even do that - which is why he 'attacked the messenger'. RB: A simple benchmark (comprehensive diagnostics) was provided. Furthermore, another has been used to demonstrate that many recommendation come without even basic technical knowledge. Can they even name one essential function of an ATX computer power supply? If not, then suspect the credibility of their recommendation. Good luck in your quest for a better machine. Papa wrote: Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". |
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#47
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new computer question
I find power supplies often missing essential functions.
Missing functions are most common in clone computers. Intel had even stated what specific functions must exist in a power supply (if AMD provides such technical specs for power supplies, then please provide the URL). Ballpark numbers - a power supply selling for $20 or $30 is routinely missing those essential functions. Power supplies that include those essential functions typically sell in the $60 and $70 region. This does not say all $60+ power supplies are properly built. But those $20 and $30 supplies are always missing essential functions. Again, this is old, simple, basic, techical knowledge. If a computer assembler does not even know this, then his job is 'prime ready' to be outsourced to Asia. Unfortunately too many computer 'experts' don't even know the essential functions that must be in a power supply - which is why Asian manufacturers have found a very lucritive market in N America for inferior but low priced power supplies. Demonstrate one essential function in power supplies: short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power supply must not be damaged. Again this was even a defacto standard 30 years ago. Intel specs even say how big the wire must be to short all outputs together (please provide the AMD spec?). This simple test often destroys many unacceptable supplies routinely found in clone computers. Why? I would bet many computer assembler here have always assumed this test would destroy power supplies - only because they have seen a shorted power supply fail. IOW they never first learned basic electrical knowledge which is one reason why jobs end up in Asia. These same people would also recommend that computer from a 'mon & pop' store when the only spec used to select a supply was dollars. Again, a ballpark measure of any acceptable computer - does the manufacturer provide comprehensive diagnostics. Gateway does not. Those discount computer assembler stores do not. Diagnostics are a simple benchmark to find computers built on an engineering basis - not built using a bean counter mentality. Too many are so ill informed as to think every power supply sold to clone computer assemblers contains essential functions. Unfortunately too many don't even know what those essential functions are. BTW there is no relationship between watts and quality. Many naive computer assemblers assoicate more watts with more quality. Some of the worst quality power supply are the grossly oversized 500+ watt supplies. Higher quality supplies in brand name computers are on the order of 250 and 350 watts. But lets learn more. Ok Papa. What are the essential functions inside a power supply? Please demonstrate knowledge gleaned from those mom and pop computer stores. What are the essential functions that power supplies had even 30 years ago? Papa wrote: I totally disagree on two counts. One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks some "essential functions". Sure, some power supplies are under powered (100 watts, for example) or are of poor quality, but lacking essential functions? No. Two, the people at every Mom and Pop computer store I have ever visited possess far more technical knowledge than their counterparts at the larger computer outlets - who are almost always just clerks having little knowledge and - at most - possessing only a script to answer customers questions. Further, the Mom and Pop stores are flexible enough to give the customer exactly what he wants, including component brand selection and non-proprietary hardware. Guess who sells the low quality, proprietary, difficult to upgrade systems to unsuspecting customers? Ever heard of E-Machines, Packard Bell, or Compaq? These brands do not come from Mom and Pop stores. And why the emphasis on Intel? Amd is another perfectly good option. |
#48
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new computer question
I find power supplies often missing essential functions.
Missing functions are most common in clone computers. Intel had even stated what specific functions must exist in a power supply (if AMD provides such technical specs for power supplies, then please provide the URL). Ballpark numbers - a power supply selling for $20 or $30 is routinely missing those essential functions. Power supplies that include those essential functions typically sell in the $60 and $70 region. This does not say all $60+ power supplies are properly built. But those $20 and $30 supplies are always missing essential functions. Again, this is old, simple, basic, techical knowledge. If a computer assembler does not even know this, then his job is 'prime ready' to be outsourced to Asia. Unfortunately too many computer 'experts' don't even know the essential functions that must be in a power supply - which is why Asian manufacturers have found a very lucritive market in N America for inferior but low priced power supplies. Demonstrate one essential function in power supplies: short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power supply must not be damaged. Again this was even a defacto standard 30 years ago. Intel specs even say how big the wire must be to short all outputs together (please provide the AMD spec?). This simple test often destroys many unacceptable supplies routinely found in clone computers. Why? I would bet many computer assembler here have always assumed this test would destroy power supplies - only because they have seen a shorted power supply fail. IOW they never first learned basic electrical knowledge which is one reason why jobs end up in Asia. These same people would also recommend that computer from a 'mon & pop' store when the only spec used to select a supply was dollars. Again, a ballpark measure of any acceptable computer - does the manufacturer provide comprehensive diagnostics. Gateway does not. Those discount computer assembler stores do not. Diagnostics are a simple benchmark to find computers built on an engineering basis - not built using a bean counter mentality. Too many are so ill informed as to think every power supply sold to clone computer assemblers contains essential functions. Unfortunately too many don't even know what those essential functions are. BTW there is no relationship between watts and quality. Many naive computer assemblers assoicate more watts with more quality. Some of the worst quality power supply are the grossly oversized 500+ watt supplies. Higher quality supplies in brand name computers are on the order of 250 and 350 watts. But lets learn more. Ok Papa. What are the essential functions inside a power supply? Please demonstrate knowledge gleaned from those mom and pop computer stores. What are the essential functions that power supplies had even 30 years ago? Papa wrote: I totally disagree on two counts. One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks some "essential functions". Sure, some power supplies are under powered (100 watts, for example) or are of poor quality, but lacking essential functions? No. Two, the people at every Mom and Pop computer store I have ever visited possess far more technical knowledge than their counterparts at the larger computer outlets - who are almost always just clerks having little knowledge and - at most - possessing only a script to answer customers questions. Further, the Mom and Pop stores are flexible enough to give the customer exactly what he wants, including component brand selection and non-proprietary hardware. Guess who sells the low quality, proprietary, difficult to upgrade systems to unsuspecting customers? Ever heard of E-Machines, Packard Bell, or Compaq? These brands do not come from Mom and Pop stores. And why the emphasis on Intel? Amd is another perfectly good option. |
#49
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new computer question
Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a
bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". |
#50
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new computer question
"w_tom" wrote in message ... One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store is that their power supplies may be missing essential functions that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy power supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would protect the technically naive buy inferior products from little computer store; whose people never even learned what those essential power supply functions are. What unknown functions can be missing from a power supply if one reads the label. You sound like a person that wants to put forth no effort and wants someone else to do things for you. But again. How to know that little computer store does not provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply missing essential functions (that could destroy other computer components), but the little computer store does not provide comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the Dell would be a better product. mouseyface wrote: The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out tech support overseas putting techs here out of work. (If the companies here keep sending work overseas soon there will be no one here to buy anything since no one will be working and they will wonder why sells have dropped, eh.) When you call for support you may get a reading from a book and two techs will give you two different answers for the same problem (one may void your warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror stories at PC World and various other magazines and web sites about this. You may get someone whose English is so bad that you can't even understand them. It isn't what it used to be, that's why I build my own and have for years (it is easier to return one bad component). You may want to try a local computer store (mom and pop variety) since, lately, they have been getting better scores (PC World). Make sure that they have been in business for a good while and that they have a good standing with the BBB. Make sure you get everything in writing and what the length of the warranty and what the warranty contains. Make sure of their support. You can pick and choose your components this way - there on site and it is generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if you are non-profit. My opinion only! |
#51
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new computer question
"Papa" wrote in message ... Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". These NG's are overran with know-it-all newbies with their proprietary boxen. |
#52
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new computer question
Ain't that the truth! ;)
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#53
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new computer question
I find power supplies often missing essential functions.
Missing functions are most common in clone computers. Intel had even stated what specific functions must exist in a power supply (if AMD provides such technical specs for power supplies, then please provide the URL). Ballpark numbers - a power supply selling for $20 or $30 is routinely missing those essential functions. Power supplies that include those essential functions typically sell in the $60 and $70 region. This does not say all $60+ power supplies are properly built. But those $20 and $30 supplies are always missing essential functions. Again, this is old, simple, basic, techical knowledge. If a computer assembler does not even know this, then his job is 'prime ready' to be outsourced to Asia. Unfortunately too many computer 'experts' don't even know the essential functions that must be in a power supply - which is why Asian manufacturers have found a very lucritive market in N America for inferior but low priced power supplies. Demonstrate one essential function in power supplies: short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power supply must not be damaged. Again this was even a defacto standard 30 years ago. Intel specs even say how big the wire must be to short all outputs together (please provide the AMD spec?). This simple test often destroys many unacceptable supplies routinely found in clone computers. Why? I would bet many computer assembler here have always assumed this test would destroy power supplies - only because they have seen a shorted power supply fail. IOW they never first learned basic electrical knowledge which is one reason why jobs end up in Asia. These same people would also recommend that computer from a 'mon & pop' store when the only spec used to select a supply was dollars. Again, a ballpark measure of any acceptable computer - does the manufacturer provide comprehensive diagnostics. Gateway does not. Those discount computer assembler stores do not. Diagnostics are a simple benchmark to find computers built on an engineering basis - not built using a bean counter mentality. Too many are so ill informed as to think every power supply sold to clone computer assemblers contains essential functions. Unfortunately too many don't even know what those essential functions are. BTW there is no relationship between watts and quality. Many naive computer assemblers assoicate more watts with more quality. Some of the worst quality power supply are the grossly oversized 500+ watt supplies. Higher quality supplies in brand name computers are on the order of 250 and 350 watts. But lets learn more. Ok Papa. What are the essential functions inside a power supply? Please demonstrate knowledge gleaned from those mom and pop computer stores. What are the essential functions that power supplies had even 30 years ago? Papa wrote: I totally disagree on two counts. One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks some "essential functions". Sure, some power supplies are under powered (100 watts, for example) or are of poor quality, but lacking essential functions? No. Two, the people at every Mom and Pop computer store I have ever visited possess far more technical knowledge than their counterparts at the larger computer outlets - who are almost always just clerks having little knowledge and - at most - possessing only a script to answer customers questions. Further, the Mom and Pop stores are flexible enough to give the customer exactly what he wants, including component brand selection and non-proprietary hardware. Guess who sells the low quality, proprietary, difficult to upgrade systems to unsuspecting customers? Ever heard of E-Machines, Packard Bell, or Compaq? These brands do not come from Mom and Pop stores. And why the emphasis on Intel? Amd is another perfectly good option. |
#54
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new computer question
Since Papa did not like specs from Intel, then he was asked
to provide a URL for AMD power supply spec. He did not. I am still waiting for his URL. But based upon the technical merit of his last post, I doubt he has ever seen a power supply specification. Exampled was one essential power supply function. It was intentionally left for Papa to name this or any other essential power supply function: ... short together all the DC voltage outputs and power up. Power supply must not be damaged. Apparently Papa does not even recognize the example as a essential function of all power supplies. Instead he disparages: Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. Papa did not even know that some power supplies don't even meet defacto standards of 30 years ago. Provided: that one essential power supply function. From Intel specs: 3.2.4 Power Limit Under shrot circuit or overload conditions, no output shall exceed 240 VA unde any conditions including single component fault conditions, per IEC 60950 requirements. ... 3.4.2 Short-circuit Protection ... The power supply shall shut down and latch off for shorting the +3.3 VDC, +5 VDC, or +12 VDC rails to return or any other rail. Shorts between the +5 VSB shall not cause any damage to the power supply. ... The power supply shall be capable of withstanding a continuous short-circuit to the output without damage or overstress to the unit under the input conditions specified in Sections 3.1. Papa is correct. I did not name the essential function. I simply exampled an essential function and let Papa name that function. Instead Papa did not even recognize it as an essential function - and posted: One, there is no such thing as a modern computer power supply that lacks some "essential functions". Papa does not even know of essential functions that must be in a computer power supply; even when one was exampled right before him. Unfortunately he is too typical of the many who recommend computers and computer components. Too many computer 'experts' don't even know what basic and essential functions must be included in a power supply. But they would even recommend a power supply anyway. No wonder jobs are leaving America to where people first learn technology before becoming an 'expert'. A benchmark for identifying the superior computer manufacturers - they provide comprehensive diagnostics. This benchmark eliminates many clone computer assemblers who too often don't even know of essential functions required in a power supply. Provided was an example of an essential power supply function. Papa could not name it - or any other essential function. Other essential functions would even be provided in box with a minimally acceptable power supply. But specs are not provided with supplies that are missing essential functions. All Papa had to do is list one item from that spec sheet. He could not even do that - which is why he 'attacked the messenger'. RB: A simple benchmark (comprehensive diagnostics) was provided. Furthermore, another has been used to demonstrate that many recommendation come without even basic technical knowledge. Can they even name one essential function of an ATX computer power supply? If not, then suspect the credibility of their recommendation. Good luck in your quest for a better machine. Papa wrote: Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". |
#55
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new computer question
Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a
bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". |
#56
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new computer question
"w_tom" wrote in message ... One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store is that their power supplies may be missing essential functions that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy power supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would protect the technically naive buy inferior products from little computer store; whose people never even learned what those essential power supply functions are. What unknown functions can be missing from a power supply if one reads the label. You sound like a person that wants to put forth no effort and wants someone else to do things for you. But again. How to know that little computer store does not provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply missing essential functions (that could destroy other computer components), but the little computer store does not provide comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the Dell would be a better product. mouseyface wrote: The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out tech support overseas putting techs here out of work. (If the companies here keep sending work overseas soon there will be no one here to buy anything since no one will be working and they will wonder why sells have dropped, eh.) When you call for support you may get a reading from a book and two techs will give you two different answers for the same problem (one may void your warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror stories at PC World and various other magazines and web sites about this. You may get someone whose English is so bad that you can't even understand them. It isn't what it used to be, that's why I build my own and have for years (it is easier to return one bad component). You may want to try a local computer store (mom and pop variety) since, lately, they have been getting better scores (PC World). Make sure that they have been in business for a good while and that they have a good standing with the BBB. Make sure you get everything in writing and what the length of the warranty and what the warranty contains. Make sure of their support. You can pick and choose your components this way - there on site and it is generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if you are non-profit. My opinion only! |
#57
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new computer question
"Papa" wrote in message ... Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". These NG's are overran with know-it-all newbies with their proprietary boxen. |
#58
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new computer question
Ain't that the truth! ;)
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#59
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new computer question
You will note that I mentioned that YOU choose the components that you want
in your computer. What part of that did you miss? That includes the power supply of your choice. http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/dellconverter.html . The large companies use proprietary components, try replacing a power supply and fry your board. If they have changed, I am unaware of it but then, I really don't care since I don't purchase them, eh. I do know that PC Power and Cooling lists Dell power supplies separately. You really need to do more research before you speak. http://www.hardwareguys.com/dellwarn.html http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/pro...lies/selector/ "w_tom" wrote in message ... One major problem with that discount (mom and pop) store is that their power supplies may be missing essential functions that were defacto standard even 30 years ago. Those who believe in free markets always buy the best. IOW buy power supplies that meet Intel specifications. Those who would protect the technically naive buy inferior products from little computer store; whose people never even learned what those essential power supply functions are. But again. How to know that little computer store does not provide a good product. Where are the comprehensive diagnostics for the system? Not only is power supply missing essential functions (that could destroy other computer components), but the little computer store does not provide comprehensive diagnostics. Just more reasons why the Dell would be a better product. mouseyface wrote: The computer companies, Dell included, are hiring out tech support overseas putting techs here out of work. (If the companies here keep sending work overseas soon there will be no one here to buy anything since no one will be working and they will wonder why sells have dropped, eh.) When you call for support you may get a reading from a book and two techs will give you two different answers for the same problem (one may void your warranty, that's how bad it can be). There are horror stories at PC World and various other magazines and web sites about this. You may get someone whose English is so bad that you can't even understand them. It isn't what it used to be, that's why I build my own and have for years (it is easier to return one bad component). You may want to try a local computer store (mom and pop variety) since, lately, they have been getting better scores (PC World). Make sure that they have been in business for a good while and that they have a good standing with the BBB. Make sure you get everything in writing and what the length of the warranty and what the warranty contains. Make sure of their support. You can pick and choose your components this way - there on site and it is generally cheaper. Some will give you a discount if you are non-profit. My opinion only! |
#60
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new computer question
Well, you have thrown around that term, "missing essential functions" a
bunch of times. Yet you never say exactly what those functions are. Not too credible, to say the least. I really doubt if you even know. By the way, unless you love getting spam, you should not use your real email address in NG posts. That's the mark of a "newbie". |
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