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#151
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote: So call the electrician back and let him know there are 2 and 3 prong outlets? He already knows there's an open ground because that's why I called him. If he can't replace the 2 prong with a 3 prong and he can't run a green wire for grounding then why have him come out at all? Just to replace what I already have? I tried calling him, no answer.... Robert First I'm trying to make sure you understand the situation. I'm trying to describe the situation based on "betting odds". Two prong outlets are deployed with two-wire cables. Three prong outlets are deployed while using three-wire cable. If a residence has two-prong plugs, then the wire in the wall is most likely to be two-wire cable. Maybe there is some way to put a proper ground on a mobile home outlet box. But I don't know how that would work. You have to be able to demonstrate to an inspector, that the Safety ground is suited for the job, and can deflect 15-30A of "Hot" to make a breaker trip and prevent an appliance chassis from being a shock hazard. The Safety ground exists, to try to convert a Hot chassis failure, into a breaker trip. The invention of surge arrestors and computer power supplies that leak small amounts of AC, those are secondary uses of Safety Ground. But once you hook up the third prong, the implementation must be capable of fulfilling any of those roles, including Safety Ground handling a large current flow. ******* Two-prong outlets are "grandfathered". That means you're allowed to have them and continue to use them. You can't use them on new construction. But, if they came with the residence in the first place, you're allowed to continue using them. The two-prong doesn't handle computer leakage current all that well. That's why I was getting a mild shock back home, because the chassis was "slightly hot" from the front end filter on a computer I was installing. The two-prong won't make a surge protector work right. If the surge protector comes with a "$50,000 warranty", and there is equipment damage, the warranty is void. The provider of the warranty goes out of their way to find fault with the household end of the wiring. People quite comfortably continue to live in two-prong houses. It means they won't have surge protection like a person in a three-prong house would. But I don't remember anything blowing up back home - I don't think we had any electronics fail from surges. Never lost a TV set to lightning. We also didn't have any "hot chassis failures", so the missing Safety ground feature was not missed. Paul I'll tell you one problem that existed for me in an old 1940's house that only had two prong sockets (and 30 amp total service via a fusebox). And that's that mild shock thing you mentioned, but in this case, for a refrigerator, which would give you a slight tingle whenever you touched it. I solved the shock problem by grounding the case of the refrigerator by running a wire over to a cold water pipe that was grounded. Yes, I know that's a kludge, and not according to electrical code, but it worked for the time being. And just a curiosity sidenote: I missed Robert's reply (if he gave one) on how he came up with that interesting name (Mark Twain), and if he had any kinship to the author Samuel Clemens, which would be pretty interesting in its own right! |
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#152
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Mark Twain wrote:
I understand all that and I've lived here going on 14 years and I've never been shocked and grew up in 2 prong houses and never was shocked although I think it's kinda of weird to have both 2 and 3 prong outlets in the same home. It still doesn't answer the question of whether I should cancel the electrician. I tried calling him several times to let him know he's dealing with 2 and 3 prong outlets and that alone should tell him what we've been discussing that there's no ground and no way way he can turn a 2 prong into a 3 prong. Interesting you've never seen an electrician test for grounding so how is this guy going to check? He's charging $350.00 to replace (16) outlets. Is this a waste of time? As you pointed out if there was a ground on the 2 prong outlets then why dind't they make them 3 prong? It doesn't make sense to have 2 and 3 prong outlets in the same home. Again, I checked with the testor and screwed down adapter they came out OK. I understand the difference but I'm just saying from my side and from what you've told me about being grandfathered in they appear to work correctly. I'm not understanding what the electrician is going to be able to do since he can't make all the outlets 3 prong. What do you think? Robert I don't know how those three-prong got there, like maybe a previous resident put them there ? Most trades I know of, want to size up the job first and give a proper estimate. The guy can't charge you just $350 if he has to pull wire for the whole works. I can't even tell a roofer how big the roof is - they have to come out and measure it with their tape measure, then give an estimate. How does the guy propose to run a business, by running about with only phone estimates ? You as the customer will have no cost control, and the "final bill" will be something entirely different than this phone estimate you got. Estimates in writing are preferred. And for businesses in the same town, the estimates may be done for free. If there is a BBB listing in your area, you can check that too for red flags (guy has bad rating). You know you're dealing with scum, when they start asking for money up front, before the job begins. Eventually, those trades or "contractors" get written up in the newspaper, after they've defrauded a few people. We have a lot of trouble around here, with "snow removal" firms that mysteriously "go out of business" while holding customer pre-payments. And they're "oh-so-sorry" they couldn't make the payments on their snow blowers or whatever. When it looks like they had no intention of doing anything. Paul |
#153
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
I understand about the guy asking for $350 up
front but where did we go from that to running wire and redoing my entire place? I don't have that kind of money just to make everything 3 prongs. The 2 prongs were here when I moved in and so are grandfathered and everything with the 3 prong tested OK and also the 2 prong with the adapter screwed down although I realize it's not a proper ground for the APC but the error light did go out and I haven't had any problems in 14 years. I think you and I are in agreement but just saying it in different ways and this wasn't even an issue until I noticed the APC light in the first place. I'll cancel the electrician tomorrow and no need to find another. Robert |
#154
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
My mobile home is an older 1960's vintage and I believe
my amp is 30 or 40. I think Paul had suggested to use a name other than my own when posting awhile back,. so I just happened to pick Mark Twain. No relation. Robert |
#155
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
I tried calling the electrician this morning
but didn't answer so I left message to cancel the 9th and also sent him an email to cancel it. I'm going to try to call again later because knowing these guys he won't look at his messages or emails and show up on the 9th if I don't. Robert |
#156
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Mark Twain wrote:
My mobile home is an older 1960's vintage and I believe my amp is 30 or 40. I think Paul had suggested to use a name other than my own when posting awhile back,. so I just happened to pick Mark Twain. No relation. Robert Oh, ok. It just seemed a bit strange to me since it really is the name of an actual person who died 100 years ago! I've only caught some of this thread, but from what I gather, you have a mix of 2 and 3 prong AC outlets in there, which is a bit strange. Well, it's not only strange, but it can be misleading, too, because it could imply those outlets are properly grounded, which they may not be. But that's not to say that they don't work - as long as you keep that limitation in mind. One possible explanation is that whoever put the 3 prong outlets in there either didn't know any better OR wasn't able to find the older 2 prong outlets. Another possibility is that someone did put in some 3 prong outlets with the proper grounding, at least for those outlets, but that doesn't seem very likely. I'm wondering if pulling the outlet cover off and seeing if there are indeed 3 separate wires coming into the outlet box could indicate that, but I'm not an electrician, and there may be more to it than that (by code or whatever). |
#157
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
This is getting way more than I wanted and was the
result of the APC error light. I just assume that the previous owner put them in; one is in the bathroom and one in the kitchen which is weird. As I said, I tested the 3 prong again and they came out correct and tested the 2 prong with adapter and ground tab screwed down and they also came out OK. I realize as Paul said, its not a true ground but the APC error light went out and I've lived here for going on to 14 years and never had a problem or shock. I also don't have the $$$$ to have my place re-wired. I pretty much went through the worst I could go through when a previous electrician wired my place for 220V vs 110V and fried everything I had. Paul can tell you about that! I was damn lucky my computers didn't get hit. I also have outages when it rains, Robert |
#158
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Cancelled the appointment.
He was nice enough about it and said he was at a wedding yesterday which is why I couldn't reach him. Robert |
#159
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Mark Twain wrote:
This is getting way more than I wanted and was the result of the APC error light. I just assume that the previous owner put them in; one is in the bathroom and one in the kitchen which is weird. As I said, I tested the 3 prong again and they came out correct and tested the 2 prong with adapter and ground tab screwed down and they also came out OK. I realize as Paul said, its not a true ground but the APC error light went out and I've lived here for going on to 14 years and never had a problem or shock. If it's not a true ground, I wonder what it is. Just curious. I wonder if there are any cases where the thit could simply have been tied the longer slot of the AC socket which is normally at ground potential, if I remember correctly, but definitely not "legal" or up to code. |
#160
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff.
Robert |
#161
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Mark Twain wrote:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff. Robert Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is coming from, on the three prong outlets you do have installed. Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic, that's for sure. Paul |
#162
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
That has me puzzled also whoever did it
and you'd think they would do the entire home not just two outlets. It's a strange configuration but seems to work. btw why do you think the malwarebytes pop-up error came back? http://i68.tinypic.com/2h5l1yw.jpg Robert |
#163
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote: You have to ask Paul about that stuff. Robert Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is coming from, on the three prong outlets you do have installed. Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic, that's for sure. Paul Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to the large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even though it's a bad idea and obviously against code? |
#164
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote: Mark Twain wrote: You have to ask Paul about that stuff. Robert Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is coming from, on the three prong outlets you do have installed. Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic, that's for sure. Paul Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to the large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even though it's a bad idea and obviously against code? I'm thinking that's a bad idea. If there's a fire at your place, and they spot that, it could invalidate your fire insurance. The surge arrestor isn't going to work right either. It might not have the same protection characteristics. And you could have a "shifted neutral" fault. Neutral could be lifted above ground. Since hot and neutral extend outside your house, there are more options for mischief. They don't have to stay at their nominal potentials. A tree could fall and... Paul |
#165
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O.T. HD, PSU review:
Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote: Paul wrote: Mark Twain wrote: You have to ask Paul about that stuff. Robert Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is coming from, on the three prong outlets you do have installed. Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic, that's for sure. Paul Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to the large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even though it's a bad idea and obviously against code? I'm thinking that's a bad idea. If there's a fire at your place, and they spot that, it could invalidate your fire insurance. The surge arrestor isn't going to work right either. It might not have the same protection characteristics. And you could have a "shifted neutral" fault. Neutral could be lifted above ground. Since hot and neutral extend outside your house, there are more options for mischief. They don't have to stay at their nominal potentials. A tree could fall and... Paul And just to set the record straight, I hope no one even dares to do this, but I was just curious, and wonder if anyone ever did such a hack. Hopefully not!! Where and how is that neutral normally grounded, anyways? Right outside the house, via some metal rod going into the ground, a few feet down? I'm guessing that's it. |
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