read past dud blocks (on hard disc)? Now the story of my hard drive experiences ...

(Long ...)
[]
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message ...

Is there anything that will read a file with a dud block (on the hard
disc) in it, replacing the dud block with zeroes, ones, or something?

I don't mean something like SpinRite, that tries to reread the dud block
up to 2000 times in the hope one of them will succeed; I just mean
something that'll copy _past_ the unreadable block.

A few things - like IrfanView - will read _up to_ the dud block, and
give you the first part, filling the rest with grey; most things, such
as Windows Explorer, just read up to the dud block, then pause for ages,
then give you an error message without giving _any_ of the corrupted file.

I have a few videos I'd like to recover from the dud disc - with maybe a
few dropped frames.

Ideally something free and GUI, rather than paid or command line: I just
want, ideally, to be able to drag the corrupted file to a new location,
and get a file (with some dud blocks) that at least can be read without
lockup-and-loss.

Just thought I'd give you all a summary.

I did have: Samsung NC-20 netbook (a 12" one, so the keyboard has almost
full-size keys), with a (Samsung) 160G drive in it (as originally
supplied). XP, my main machine.

Acer Aspire 9301, 7HP. (17".) Bought _mainly_ to support (including
several blind) friends who have 7, but also to get more familiar with 7,
and also to have the power for when I need it (it's a much more modern
PC). [320G drive.] (I rarely do need it: I'm not a gamer, or even much
of a video watcher. Mainly email, usenet, and genealogy.)

I'd always backed up important data to a second partition on the HD,
since in the past my experience in the past has always been that HDs
give some indication of impending failure, at least long enough to copy
data off. However, I always "meant to" get a physical backup drive, not
only to back up to a truly separate drive, but also to use one of the
things we discuss here occasionally - Acronis, Macrium, etc. - to back
up the _system_ area so I can restore my XP system if I need to. (The
intricacies of how XP OEM [the netbook came with XP SP3 preinstalled]
validates/authorises itself having been something I've never really been
that interested in learning.)

Then - the _day_ before I was due to go to a computer fair at which I
was going to buy my backup drive (actually probably only a few hours
before; I play late), the drive on the netbook stopped - suddenly, with
no warning.

I went to the fair anyway, and bought a couple of drives (a 1TB 3.5"
purely for backup, and a 250G 2.5" for the netbook). Both with 3 year
guarantees - one can't be sure of anything these days, but I thought
that was my best bet. (If anyone's interested, the 1T is a Seagate and
the 250G is a Hitachi.) (I also bought an external dock - red and black
thing, does SATA and PATA [and USB, and card slots ...]: the quite
meaty-looking "3A" 12 power supply it came with died after a few days,
though fortunately I have another one that's serving. A friend tells me
he's seen on t'internet that the PSUs with these docks are commonly
failing, in one case fierily so. I'll take it back next time I go to the
same fair.)

During the next few days, I tried the various methods on the internet
for recovering a dead drive, including the freezer. I could tell (hear)
it wasn't rotating. (Actually consensus is that the freezing is _not_ a
good idea because of condensation on the platters causing head crashes
and damage when it does spin up, and I think there may be _some_
validity to that - it wasn't important in my case as it _didn't_ spin
up. My trust in the people who warn about condensation wasn't boosted by
one of them - on YouTube - _showing_ the condensation; obviously, to do
so, he'd opened it up and exposed it to the air. Others claim that this
isn't too relevant as they're not actually hermetically sealed anyway;
OK, and yes mine has a breather hole, but I'm still not sure that's the
same as actually opening it up when its cold.) Another suggestion I
found on the 'net was that the overvoltage protection diodes sometimes
fail _short_ circuit and thus prevent power reaching the drive (or part
thereof); this seems unlikely to me (such diodes usually IME - and I
work in avionics, and one of the units I service is always coming in
with them blown - fail _open_ circuit), but lots of people said it had
worked for them, so I disconnected it (at one end): no change. (I
haven't got round to reconnecting it.)

Even considered using a data recovery service. But I had concerns about
whether they'd keep copies of what was on the drive; however reputable
the company, it only takes one employee ... In practice I'm glad I
didn't, as I don't think they'd have done _much_ better than I did in
the end.

So, eventually, I bit the bullet, and - in our company clean-air cabinet
(incidentally: such cabinets, and clean rooms, operate under _positive_
pressure, not what you'd intuitively think), after running its fans for
a while - I opened up the drive. (A Torx #6 'driver fitted the seven
screws; note there's one under one of the labels, but unlike some of
those on YouTube, I didn't poke through the label, but was able to
carefully peel it back, and replace it afterwards.) I found the head on
the drive, not parked to the side as it should have been. I very
carefully turned the drive - using the driver; the same one fitted the
hub. I felt slight resistance; the head(s?) had indeed obviously stuck
to the drive. I carefully (without touching the platter surfaces) moved
the head assembly back to its park position, reassembled, took it over
to my dock, and tried power - whee, it span up. Rushed home to extract
as much as possible before the doom set in predicted by all those on the
net who said never open a drive. (To be honest, I suspect that - for the
short time involved, at least - opening in a normal home, as long as
there are no smokers or similar - you'd get away with it anyway;
especially if you made your own clean cabinet with a fan and some
filters [positive pressure, remember]. But don't quote me on that!)

Anyway, I got home, and set to _moving_ - not copying - from the two
partitions, to a couple of folders (called something like C-saved and
D-saved) on the other laptop. (Couldn't use the dock to copy straight to
the new backup drive: it only has one SATA slot!) Now, before you all
suck in breath at my doing a move rather than a copy: I'd tentatively
looked first, and saw that the drive appeared to be mostly OK. Doing a
move meant that I could _easily_ see what hadn't copied.

During subsequent days I tried to recover the few files that didn't come
off the first time. I think I might have recovered one or two.

When I'd _more or less_ given up (I still have the dud drive), I
Macriumed an image of the recovery partition (100M, IIRR) and the C:
(about 30G). This was mainly to give myself the best chance of getting a
valid XP system back.

I then put the new (250G) drive into the dock. First, I restored from
the image, so that the recovery partition and boot parts of C: were
"restored". I then resized C: to 40G, made a D: partition for the rest
(I still intend to keep most of my data away from C:, to [a] keep the
image size down, [b] keep _data_ backing up something I can do with
plain copying), and then moved files from the two directories on the 7
laptop back to the two partitions.

(I spent a few more days trying again to get the few dud files back.
Without success.)

A couple of days ago, I finally bit the bullet again, put the new drive
into the netbook, and powered it up. Something Samsung came up: it
offered me at least two options, one which was a minimum restore (or
repair or something), one a full (or something like that) which it said
would erase everything. Obviously, I chose the first one. After a little
while, my system is back!

After a very few more repairs, obviously first thing done has been make
a new Macrium image - now of the hidden partition and the (resized and)
reloaded C: - and a copy of D:, this time onto the new backup drive.
(I'd made - and used - the Macrium boot CDs [two, one for 32 bit and one
for 64; not sure whether I needed both, but I got the impression I did];
incidentally, they fit onto mini-CDs.)

So all is well, and I'm back typing on the netbook. (The 17" one is a
bit heavy on the knees!) [It's _so_ nice to be back using the software
I'm used to (which won't run under 64-bit), not to mention have all my
back emails/news for many years!]

The one remaining thing I'd _like_ to do is get back the remaining dud
files: in particular a few videos I'd taken, which would probably just
show a glitch for the corrupted sectors. I've kept several of your
suggestions in this thread, and may pursue some of them at some time in
the future, when I feel up to doing battle with Linux and/or command
line. I must say I've completely given up any hope of reading the bad
sectors, so please _don't_ suggest anything for that; however, if anyone
does know of a free, and Windows (XP or 7), utility that will read a
FILE that has a few (I suspect only one for most of my files),
zero-filling (or whatever) where the dud bits are, I'd be very grateful.

(In the distant past, under BBC BASIC in the days of floppy discs, I
even wrote something: it read a byte at a time, wrote it to another
file, and closed the other file in the event of an error. That at least
gave me files up to the dud, though not the bit after.)

When I look at the dud disc in Windows explorer (under 7 at least), and
look at a folder with images or videos in, it shows me thumbnails for
most of them, which is at least partly why I suspect they're mostly
single sector faults. I also scanned the whole drive with HDDScan, which
gives a nice graphical picture as it goes, and didn't see _any_ adjacent
bad blocks, only single ones (though I could have missed a _few_ - it
did take some hours!). For interest, HDDScan gave the following totals
(access times):
5 ms 112703 sectors
10 ms 1058776 (probably would have been 5 if not for USB, multi, &c.)
20 ms 7049
50 ms 18991
150 ms 11378
500 ms 4781
500 ms 2048
Bads 5297

I presume the Bads (less than half a percent, though obviously enough to
consider the drive scrap) are from where the head(s) stuck to it, plus
_possibly_ - though I was careful [and this is where I think a data
recovery company could _possibly_ have bettered] - from my moving them
back to the park area. (They were about half way across the disc; do
modern discs start from the middle or the edge?)

Oh, and a final thought/question: what caused them to stick? Also, I've
just checked my Power Options: I'd thought maybe I should change from
turn off hard discs to Never, but I see I already have it set to Never
anyway when on external power, which it was when it died (I thought
maybe I'd got them set to power down). So it seems they must have stuck
while spinning (which, on reflection, means I was lucky there wasn't
_more_ damage). I'm pretty sure they were stuck: initially after failure
when power was applied there was a little tinkling, which a friend
thinks was the heads trying to move, and when I eventually opened it and
turned the spindle, I _think_ I felt a definite "unsticking".
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I would have suffered a hell of a
lot more if I had been understood. -Clarence Darrow, lawyer and author
(1857-1938)
%%
I hope you dream a pig.
%

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:53:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

I'd always backed up important data to a second partition on the HD,
since in the past my experience in the past has always been that HDs
give some indication of impending failure, at least long enough to copy
data off.


Glad to hear you got most of your data back. I won't comment on the
rest of your message, but I wanted to comment on the sentence above:

Perhaps you've learned your lesson. but I strongly recommend against
backup to a non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible
to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
common dangers: hardware failure, severe power glitches, nearby
lightning strikes, virus attacks, user error, even theft of the
computer.

And I would especially worry about theft of the computer with a
laptop.


In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

En el artículo , J. P. Gilliver
(John) escribió:

Glad you got (most of) your data back, and thanks for the report. Can I
comment on the following:

During the next few days, I tried the various methods on the internet
for recovering a dead drive, including the freezer. I could tell (hear)
it wasn't rotating. (Actually consensus is that the freezing is _not_ a
good idea because of condensation on the platters causing head crashes
and damage when it does spin up

You're meant to put the drive in an airtight bag before stuffing it in
the freezer, which prevents condensation from forming. If you have any
of those dessicant silica gel packs, it would be an idea to pop a couple
in the bag as well.

Others claim that this
isn't too relevant as they're not actually hermetically sealed anyway;

They're not, they have a breather hole to equalise pressure with the
atmosphere (but read on).

There is air in the drive. it's required for the aerodynamic effect
that lifts the heads off the platter as they spin. Without this effect,
the heads would scrape the magnetic material off the platters.

The exception is the recently launched Helium-filled drives. For
obvious reasons, these have to be hermetically sealed as allowing air in
via a breather hole would also let the helium out

OK, and yes mine has a breather hole,

you should have found it has a micromesh filter on it to prevent
particles entering the drive. There may also be another internal filter
sited in the airflow created by the spinning platters.

I carefully (without touching the platter surfaces) moved
the head assembly back to its park position

I would have suggested not doing that. You probably scratched the
surface of the platter, since the heads were resting on it, and now
cannot read the data from the scratched areas. The best thing to do
would have been to reassemble and power the drive up. Once the platters
started to spin, the aerodynamic effect would have lifted the heads
clear of the platter surface.

(They were about half way across the disc; do
modern discs start from the middle or the edge?)

I believe it's from the edge. CDs and DVDs, conversely, start from the
centre.

Oh, and a final thought/question: what caused them to stick?

The heads are slightly concave, so that when they come to rest on the
platter a vacuum can develop and they become stuck. You were lucky you
didn't rip the heads off the arms when you turned the spindle by hand.

They are supposed to auto-park when the drive is powered down, clearly
that didn't happen in your case. You may have noticed that the park
position locates the heads on a wedge-shaped effort which lifts them up
from the platter. This is so that when the drive next spins up, the
heads are not resting on the platter surface, damaging it.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:53:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

I'd always backed up important data to a second partition on the HD,
since in the past my experience in the past has always been that HDs
give some indication of impending failure, at least long enough to copy
data off.


Glad to hear you got most of your data back. I won't comment on the
rest of your message, but I wanted to comment on the sentence above:

Perhaps you've learned your lesson. but I strongly recommend against
backup to a non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible
to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
common dangers: hardware failure, severe power glitches, nearby
lightning strikes, virus attacks, user error, even theft of the
computer.

And I would especially worry about theft of the computer with a
laptop.


In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

Also, beware of accidentally deleting a file on the PC, without realising,
then performing a backup and that backup process deleting the corresponding
file from the backup. Or accidentally deleting a file from the back up and
the backup process deleting it from the source PC.

I use Microsoft SyncToy to backup my PC files to external USB drives, and I
have it set to Echo rather than Synchronise to avoid deleting files from the
backup if I accidentally delete them from the source.

I'd advise always using file-for-file copying software so the backup is an
exact copy of the source, rather than something like MS Backup which backs
up everything into one huge proprietary file: not only do you need the
proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup file but also if
anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything - or at least
everything beyond the point of the corruption.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:


Oh, and a final thought/question: what caused them to stick?

This article addresses some of the possible causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction

At one time, drives used CSS or Contact Start/Stop. There
was no landing ramp, no place to elevate the heads from
the platter.

Your drive, at 160GB, should be using a landing ramp.
At that density, it needs a landing ramp and an FDB motor.

And there's really *no* good reason for the head
to be sitting out there. Some unexpected series
of conditions, conspired to leave it there.

Sure, if you have a cabinet or glove box, with
hepafilter cleaning the positive pressure air feeding
the box, you can open up a drive. What isn't
recommended, is opening the drive in your dusty
living room, with absolutely no advanced preparation.
Even if you take the drive into a cabinet, you should
clean the outside of it a bit first, before opening it
up.

Paul

In message , NY
writes:
"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:53:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

I'd always backed up important data to a second partition on the HD,
since in the past my experience in the past has always been that HDs
give some indication of impending failure, at least long enough to copy
data off.


Glad to hear you got most of your data back. I won't comment on the
rest of your message, but I wanted to comment on the sentence above:

Perhaps you've learned your lesson. but I strongly recommend against
backup to a non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible
to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
common dangers: hardware failure, severe power glitches, nearby
lightning strikes, virus attacks, user error, even theft of the
computer.

I always figured that most of those were either sufficiently unlikely,
or that I'd have more to worry about (if, for example, my house had
burned down). But I had more or less decided to get (and, obviously,
use) an external, backup, drive anyway - but this happened less than a
day before I was due to do so!

Having now experienced it, I'm going to use it (I already have in fact)!

And I would especially worry about theft of the computer with a
laptop.


In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not kept
in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for example, if the
life of your business depends on your data) you should have multiple
generations of backup, and at least one of those generations should be
stored off-site.

The part that represented the most work - my genealogy - already _was_
copied to my brother's computer (some hours' drive away, in another
county). Though the schedule was somewhat erratic, as it depended on
when I visited him.

Also, beware of accidentally deleting a file on the PC, without
realising, then performing a backup and that backup process deleting
the corresponding file from the backup. Or accidentally deleting a file
from the back up and the backup process deleting it from the source PC.

I am using a Macrium image for the hidden (recovery) partition and the
C: partition. I keep all my data on a D: partition: partly to keep down
the size of the image of C: etc. (and thus the time it takes to make it,
and thus the probability of my making it!), but also so I can do backups
of D: just by using copy - and get at any file in it without needing any
software beyond Windows Explorer. So no problems with automatic backup
software upsetting anything.

I use Microsoft SyncToy to backup my PC files to external USB drives,
and I have it set to Echo rather than Synchronise to avoid deleting
files from the backup if I accidentally delete them from the source.

I copy ... (-:

I'd advise always using file-for-file copying software so the backup is
an exact copy of the source, rather than something like MS Backup which
backs up everything into one huge proprietary file: not only do you

I've never liked "one huge proprietary file" for anything -

need the proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup file
but also if anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything - or
at least everything beyond the point of the corruption.

- for exactly those reasons. Ideally, I'd use email/news software that
stores emails/posts as separate files, but there isn't anything common
that does so.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What's awful about weird views is not the views. It's the intolerance. If
someone wants to worship the Duke of Edinburgh or a pineapple, fine. But don't
kill me if I don't agree. - Tim Rice, Radio Times 15-21 October 2011.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , NY
writes:
need the proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup
file but also if anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything
- or at least everything beyond the point of the corruption.

- for exactly those reasons. Ideally, I'd use email/news software that
stores emails/posts as separate files, but there isn't anything common
that does so.

In Windows, OE was the last free client by MSFT to store files(mail and
news) in database (dbx format). Outlook, MSFT's flagship Office
product, also stores mail messages in a database file (*.pst).

All free MSFT clients post OE all store each email message in a separate
single file (*.eml) - those clients are Windows Live Mail (all
versions), Windows Mail (Vista), Windows Mail (8.0, 8.1, 10TP). All of
these except Win8's client also store news messages as separate files
(*.nws)

Note: TheWin8 client does not provide nntp capability and (for mail)
only supports EAS and IMAP.



--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 21:11:16 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , NY
writes:
"Ken Blake, MVP" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 14:53:21 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

I'd always backed up important data to a second partition on the HD,
since in the past my experience in the past has always been that HDs
give some indication of impending failure, at least long enough to copy
data off.


Glad to hear you got most of your data back. I won't comment on the
rest of your message, but I wanted to comment on the sentence above:

Perhaps you've learned your lesson. but I strongly recommend against
backup to a non-removable hard drive because it leaves you susceptible
to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to many of the most
common dangers: hardware failure, severe power glitches, nearby
lightning strikes, virus attacks, user error, even theft of the
computer.

I always figured that most of those were either sufficiently unlikely,


Unlikely? Yes. But it's like buying insurance--to protect yourself
against unlikely things occurring.


or that I'd have more to worry about (if, for example, my house had
burned down). But I had more or less decided to get (and, obviously,
use) an external, backup, drive anyway - but this happened less than a
day before I was due to do so!

Having now experienced it, I'm going to use it (I already have in fact)!

Good!

In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Oh, and a final thought/question: what caused them to stick?

This article addresses some of the possible causes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction

Thanks, I'll have a look. Certainly felt like stiction when I unstuck
it. I'm just puzzled how it could have happened when moving; IME,
stiction only happens to things that are not moving.
[]
And there's really *no* good reason for the head
to be sitting out there. Some unexpected series
of conditions, conspired to leave it there.

I think it stuck, somehow. The spindle certainly wasn't spinning until I
freed it.

Sure, if you have a cabinet or glove box, with
hepafilter cleaning the positive pressure air feeding
the box, you can open up a drive. What isn't
recommended, is opening the drive in your dusty
living room, with absolutely no advanced preparation.
Even if you take the drive into a cabinet, you should
clean the outside of it a bit first, before opening it
up.

Sounds good advice - and I hadn't thought of cleaning the outside.
Anyway, I seem to have been fairly lucky; less than half a per cent of
sectors were/are bad, and I think I got maybe more than that proportion
of files off (presumably due to some of the bad sectors being in unused
areas).

Paul
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

he was eventually struck off by the BMA in 1968 for not knowing his gluteus
maximus from his humerus.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 21:51:47 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

From Jphn's sig in the above post:

he was eventually struck off by the BMA in 1968 for not knowing his gluteus
maximus from his humerus.

Isn't the British spelling of that last word "humeurus"?

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

....winston? wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , NY
writes:
need the proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup
file but also if anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything
- or at least everything beyond the point of the corruption.

- for exactly those reasons. Ideally, I'd use email/news software that
stores emails/posts as separate files, but there isn't anything common
that does so.

In Windows, OE was the last free client by MSFT to store files(mail and
news) in database (dbx format). Outlook, MSFT's flagship Office
product, also stores mail messages in a database file (*.pst).

All free MSFT clients post OE all store each email message in a separate
single file (*.eml) - those clients are Windows Live Mail (all
versions), Windows Mail (Vista), Windows Mail (8.0, 8.1, 10TP). All of
these except Win8's client also store news messages as separate files
(*.nws)

Wonder why they made that change. Maybe it decreases the chance for file
corruption problems since each "record" is in its own file. But then again,
you may have several thousand separate eml files to keep track of, but
perhaps it's worth the tradeoff for potential recovery purposes.

But I think most database programs typically use one master (and index) file
to store a collection of records, which is more like what OE does with its
dbx files.

Bill in Co wrote:
...winston? wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , NY
writes:
need the proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup
file but also if anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything
- or at least everything beyond the point of the corruption.

- for exactly those reasons. Ideally, I'd use email/news software that
stores emails/posts as separate files, but there isn't anything common
that does so.

In Windows, OE was the last free client by MSFT to store files(mail and
news) in database (dbx format). Outlook, MSFT's flagship Office
product, also stores mail messages in a database file (*.pst).

All free MSFT clients post OE all store each email message in a separate
single file (*.eml) - those clients are Windows Live Mail (all
versions), Windows Mail (Vista), Windows Mail (8.0, 8.1, 10TP). All of
these except Win8's client also store news messages as separate files
(*.nws)

Wonder why they made that change. Maybe it decreases the chance for file
corruption problems since each "record" is in its own file. But then again,
you may have several thousand separate eml files to keep track of, but
perhaps it's worth the tradeoff for potential recovery purposes.

But I think most database programs typically use one master (and index) file
to store a collection of records, which is more like what OE does with its
dbx files.


Most likely a change in the code to adapt to synchronization even though
Windows Mail (WM) in Vista (not supporting http protocol) employed a
common method to Windows Live Mail (WLM)which was already in development
and testing at Vista RTM. In fact MSn Explorer which initially provided
sync via WebDav (and in use prior to WM in Vista and DeltaSync in WLM
for XP, Vista and upcoming Win7) discontinued OE's corruptible dbx format.

With the release of WLM and the Outlook Hotmail Connector (OLHC) it was
quite obvious that the focus was on the 0.5 Billion Hotmail type
accounts - all capable of WebDAV in OE (until deprecated) then DeltaSync
in WLM and Outlook 03/07/10 via the OLHC (OL has the feature built in) -
i.e. synchronization for email, contacts, calendar local and online.
Not only did it set the stage for how Win8 would go (supporting EAS and
later IMAP but the non-syncable POP3) those 0.5 Billion Hotmail accounts
in conjunction with Messenger proved a gold mine of telemetric data on
sync, file sharing, and what many completely missed or misunderstood -
the most important variable of all - cloud data telemetry on usage,
storage, upload/download file picture sharing use and capacity and
functional synchronization across same account compatible multiple
devices (pc, phone, etc.).

WLM, WM, and even Win8x (most likely 10 too) continue to adopt a message
store index that supports local and sync management for those individual
files (a lot easier to add/delete individual files and update an index
when reading/writing/rewriting/deleting etc. in a local and remote
(cloud) environment.


--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 21:51:47 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

From Jphn's sig in the above post:

he was eventually struck off by the BMA in 1968 for not knowing his gluteus
maximus from his humerus.

Isn't the British spelling of that last word "humeurus"?

Sorry if this was a funny and I'm just being a fall guy, but:

humour is spelt with the u in British English.

I think humorous is the same in both Englishes.

But humerus, being the Latin for elbow, is just that.

("Humeur" looks like a French spelling of something to me.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

She [Helen Mirren] was born Ilyena Lydia Vasilievna Mironov, granddaughter of
a Russian aristocrat

In message , =?UTF-8?Q?...
winston=e2=80=ab?= writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , NY
writes:
need the proprietary software to retrieve anything from the backup
file but also if anything corrupts that file, you may lose everything
- or at least everything beyond the point of the corruption.

- for exactly those reasons. Ideally, I'd use email/news software that
stores emails/posts as separate files, but there isn't anything common
that does so.

In Windows, OE was the last free client by MSFT to store files(mail and
news) in database (dbx format). Outlook, MSFT's flagship Office
product, also stores mail messages in a database file (*.pst).

Yes, but all in one .dbx file (or it might have been one per "folder").
I meant a separate real file for each email - but I'm unaware of
anything (in Windows, at least) that does that.

All free MSFT clients post OE all store each email message in a
separate single file (*.eml) - those clients are Windows Live Mail (all

I didn't know that. (Since they're presumably just plain text files,
they could just be .txt, couldn't they?)

versions), Windows Mail (Vista), Windows Mail (8.0, 8.1, 10TP). All of
these except Win8's client also store news messages as separate files
(*.nws)

(I didn't know that either!) Again, could presumably be .txt files.

Note: TheWin8 client does not provide nntp capability and (for mail)
only supports EAS and IMAP.

Well, we know what MS thinks of usenet.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A perfectionist takes infinite pains and often gives them to others

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 23:58:22 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:


But humerus, being the Latin for elbow ...


No, it's the bone connecting the elbow with the shoulder.